Pro Pool players courting disaster

[CJ Wiley]

I'm giving the perspective of a Pro Player, since there no other's speaking up

CJ, If everybody agreed with you, there would be no Challenger tour in Tennis, no Web.com tour in golf (or the many other minor league tours), and no regional tours in pool. Even on the loftiest of pro tours (PGA, ATP, WTA), there are more losers (money wise) than winners. It's the nature of the beast. If everyone wanted to play it safe, they could stay home and get a job. Why compete at all if it costs you money to go and play? I'm sorry your argument for the benefits of BB just don't hold water in the real world of competitive sports.

POKER is not the model we should follow....not at all, it's flawed too.

The top players in Golf, Football, Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Poker, MMA, WWW, NASCAR, etc don't pay there own expenses and don't pay entree fees because the exposure on TV makes it possible to get sponsorship, salary, and other means of income.

Some have nominal entry fees like the PGA, but players are guaranteed to make much more than their expenses/entree fees. I know this isn't the PGA, however that doesn't mean our BUSINESS MODEL isn't severely flawed.....It Certainly Is.

I'm talking about the TOP PROs in Pocket Billiards, not some satellite tour. Of course you have to pay your dues to get to the top. However, because there' s no Televised Tournaments in Pool anymore there's no chance to get sponsorship.

The top pool pros make $500. a month in sponsorship....is there something wrong with this equation? Of course there is and it's all a result of a lack of TV coverage. Adding half the money and using the other half to buy TV Time (while limiting the fields) would be an immediate solution. Any Pro tournaments funded by entree fees (50%) is the wrong approach and will never work - never has, never will.

I'm giving the perspective of a Pro Player, since there no other's speaking up. I'm on the outside (now) looking in and it's clear who's making the money and why it's not the Pros....the reasons are very simple and I can go into vivid detail if anyone wants me to elaborate, from a business perspective what the real issues are and it's not the Pros.

I'm involved with other top business personalities (CPAs, Attorneys,Marketing, etc) here in Dallas that agree 100% that the Business Model of pool is the root of all the problems and issues with the players. Bonus Ball is different, they are paying all the players just like any other business in the world does....'The Game is the Teacher' and wants things to change with it's "students".

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

What do you think ?

Almost ALL the poker players (famous and not so famous) are dead broke. In fact they owe large sums of money! When I go to the World Series I always get hit up by guys you have seen play on TV. They are all going for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. One guy wins a million and a thousand other guys blow $10,000 (with backers of course)! Hello, figure out the math. It's a far worse proposition than trying to make money at pool.

In pro pool tournaments, the promoters ADD money to the entry fees. In pro poker tournaments, the promoters typically take out from 10-15% of the entry fee money for their "expenses." The players are paying to play, BIG TIME! In this equation, eventually everyone will go broke, unless they can get fresh money from somewhere. I play at the World Series every year because it's the best deal in poker, only 6-8% of the entry fees are deducted from the purse.

Jay, I have played in so many events before 1990, I can't remember them all. A lot of tournaments now days have entry fee's $50 to $100. Then you have the host add $5k to the event. Do you know after the tournament director takes their %. This is a $3k added event or less.
What would be help is add the $5k and pay the tournament director separate. A lot of hosts get a lot of product from tournament sponsors. They can Sell, Raffle, or do what they want with these products.
They can also charge a small door charge per day. I like the way Dave Coles in Beloit runs his events. He adds x amount to the events, Takes 0% from the auction and pays back 100% . And the tables are open. That is what we need. On the larger scale. Pool needs what ever help it can get. I know a lot of people have worked hard in the past and present. I welcome an attempt at something new.
If it does succeed, It will be good for all,
Gary

 

[Ken_4fun]

POKER is not the model we should follow....not at all, it's flawed too.

The top players in Golf, Football, Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Poker, MMA, WWW, NASCAR, etc don't pay there own expenses and don't pay entree fees because the exposure on TV makes it possible to get sponsorship, salary, and other means of income.

Some have nominal entry fees like the PGA, but players are guaranteed to make much more than their expenses/entree fees. I know this isn't the PGA, however that doesn't mean our BUSINESS MODEL isn't severely flawed.....It Certainly Is.

I'm talking about the TOP PROs in Pocket Billiards, not some satellite tour. Of course you have to pay your dues to get to the top. However, because there' s no Televised Tournaments in Pool anymore there's no chance to get sponsorship.

The top pool pros make $500. a month in sponsorship....is there something wrong with this equation? Of course there is and it's all a result of a lack of TV coverage. Adding half the money and using the other half to buy TV Time (while limiting the fields) would be an immediate solution. Any Pro tournaments funded by entree fees (50%) is the wrong approach and will never work - never has, never will.

I'm giving the perspective of a Pro Player, since there no other's speaking up. I'm on the outside (now) looking in and it's clear who's making the money and why it's not the Pros....the reasons are very simple and I can go into vivid detail if anyone wants me to elaborate, from a business perspective what the real issues are and it's not the Pros.

I'm involved with other top business personalities (CPAs, Attorneys,Marketing, etc) here in Dallas that agree 100% that the Business Model of pool is the root of all the problems and issues with the players. Bonus Ball is different, they are paying all the players just like any other business in the world does....'The Game is the Teacher' and wants things to change with it's "students".

CJ - Gary

Id like an answer on this one.

Do you think Greg Sullivan made money on DCC the first year? or the second? or the third?

How many YEARS do you think it took to make a dollar to the good?

ANSWER?

It cracks me up that Pool players think the Promotor is getting rich, the fans think the pool players are making a killing, that damn TAR is making a ton, Gary thinks the Director is too big of a rake.

The fact is none of them are making anything.

Ken

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Wolf, you called JB a fool last night, simple minded now? Or maybe me. That's ok, I have a thick forum skin. I also have this bad habit
Of saying what's on my mind at times.

Yeah, you did some back paddling last night and posted an apology to John this morning.

Was that a sincere apology or just your way of getting out of that bet that you got yourself into?

I guess only you know the truth.

A couple of days ago, you would have welcomed a hundred from anyone, now you basically tell me that I can shove the hundred, you know where.

A pretty quick turn around, I'd say

What's the matter Gary, don't like to get called on your actions?

Hey, I came home from the hall last night. While I was there, I thought that you'd take John up on his offer so I thought that when I got home, I'd offer up a hundred for your cause if you won.

All I saw was you back paddling out of the thread as fast as you could.

Bet that thread dies now with out you keeping it alive.

That's all I'm saying, you got yourself over your head and couldn't back it up with
money or by asking JB the right questions to fool him.

You called JB a fool, questioned his knowledge of the billiard industry, and John bet you a thousand that you could ask him
any 20 questions re the billiard industry and he would give acceptable answers to win. CJ would have been the unbiased judge.

You came back with a counter offer of a completely inane bet. It was that you have put up more added tournament money than JB
ever has. Obviously. That's like me placing a bet with you for a thousand that I don't live in Canada.
Yep, you back peddled, no doubt about it.

Just think, that one K could have went to Cliff, had you won.

And with all that tournament added money that you bragged about several times, I thought you were a gambling man.

I honestly can't see that you were a successful hall owner and business man that you said you were considering how easily
You got yourself into a bet that you could no longer control. You did that by typing too fast or too much without thinking.

Hey, you did it to yourself, I didn't. I was just reading.

 

[Mark Griffin]

CJ,

I read your posts and just can't get there from here.

Most of your assumptions are to get pool on TV. Without MAJOR sponsorship, that just costs too much. Your solution of taking half of the money to buy TV time sounds good on paper. What is the cost of buying 'some TV time'? Just exactly how many tournaments are giving up half of their money to support this concept?

. . . . . don't pay there own expenses and don't pay entree fees because the exposure on TV makes it possible to get sponsorship, salary, and other means of income.

Of course you have to pay your dues to get to the top. However, because there' s no Televised Tournaments in Pool anymore there's no chance to get sponsorship.

Adding half the money and using the other half to buy TV Time (while limiting the fields) would be an immediate solution. Any Pro tournaments funded by entree fees (50%) is the wrong approach and will never work - never has, never will.


And here is where it gets better - LOL. I think I know who is making all of the money; (since it is not the pros). Maybe it is the gas to move in the tables, and maybe it is the costs of the hotel, and might even be the costs of the lights and hanging them, or it might be insurance and advertising and staff and a million other expenses that noone ever sees.

and it's clear who's making the money and why it's not the Pros....the reasons are very simple and I can go into vivid detail if anyone wants me to elaborate, from a business perspective what the real issues are and it's not the Pros.

I agree BB is different. It remains to be seen if it is successful. But you are doing a disservice to the industry when you allude that sponsorship will solve the problems. Because all that sponsorship money does is allow the concept to continue. The minute the sponsorship money shrinks or disappears - the project disappears. And that is a major flaw in this type of thinking.

Bonus Ball is different,[/SIZE] they are paying all the players just like any other business in the world does....

I am not trying to argue with anyone - but I just see a different viewpoint that you do. I wish you the best - but things do not change overnight. And for 'things' to work require a lot of work. i believe the answer is for people in the industry to work together to find a solution.

But this is the world of pool. And cooperating with others just doesn't seem to be one of the options.

Mark Griffin

 

[Mark Griffin]

Gary,

Too often the players and critics say things like this. After the fees, it is ONLY a $3k added event! As Jay and others have pointed out, show me a small event that has a better answer. It is not poker or similar.

The venue has to give up their tables for 2-4 days, and still provide most of the services. A good room operator can make it work - but if it is a regional tour, there are expenses to overcome. Look at these things as a user fee. I think you are bein naive if you think these expenses do not have to be convered by the people using the premises.

I love your passion and participation. But things are expensive these days and if the tournaments don'e pay their way, they will cease to exist. And it is not usually greed - it is expenses.

Sponsors contributing pool items is OK - but it never works out like it does on paper.And paying the director from another source - not from entry fees is just meaning the added money will be $4,500 instead of $5,000. The expense does not go away.

Charging a small door charge usually is a bad idea. You have to pay someone to be an a**hole at the door and piss off people and make very little money (if any). And it removes most of the goodwill the event was supposed to create.

Mark Griffin

Jay, I have played in so many events before 1990, I can't remember them all. A lot of tournaments now days have entry fee's $50 to $100. Then you have the host add $5k to the event. Do you know after the tournament director takes their %. This is a $3k added event or less.

What would be help is add the $5k and pay the tournament director separate. A lot of hosts get a lot of product from tournament sponsors. They can Sell, Raffle, or do what they want with these products.

They can also charge a small door charge per day. I like the way Dave Coles in Beloit runs his events. He adds x amount to the events, Takes 0% from the auction and pays back 100% . And the tables are open. That is what we need. On the larger scale. Pool needs what ever help it can get. I know a lot of people have worked hard in the past and present. I welcome an attempt at something new.
If it does succeed, It will be good for all,
Gary

 

[Tim]

The buy back money at the DCC is that money part of the prize money?

 

[jay helfert]

The buy back money at the DCC is that money part of the prize money?

I can answer this one. It is not! This is money that is used to pay the staff and the cost of bringing in the tables and lights and setting up the room. Also there are administrative costs (the unseen costs) like advertising (see all those full page Ads, they aren't cheap), insurance (also not cheap), printing, mailing, etc. etc. I'm guessing based on my past experience, it costs a minimum of 50K for Greg to produce this event. Let's not forget that he also adds 90K+ to the purse (10K Banks, 15K One Pocket, 25K 9-Ball, 25K All Around, 18K Bigfoot Challenge). Do you begin to get the picture now? It's not a cheap date by any means.

 

[CJ Wiley]

What you need to understand is I'm willing to help for free. I'm NOT willing to pay

CJ,

I read your posts and just can't get there from here.

Most of your assumptions are to get pool on TV. Without MAJOR sponsorship, that just costs too much. Your solution of taking half of the money to buy TV time sounds good on paper. What is the cost of buying 'some TV time'? Just exactly how many tournaments are giving up half of their money to support this concept?




I am not trying to argue with anyone - but I just see a different viewpoint that you do. I wish you the best - but things do not change overnight. And for 'things' to work require a lot of work. i believe the answer is for people in the industry to work together to find a solution.

But this is the world of pool. And cooperating with others just doesn't seem to be one of the options.

Mark Griffin

You made it clear in an earlier post that we "can't agree on anything" when I offered to help you with your referee issues. What you need to understand is I'm willing to help for free. I'm NOT willing to pay to work, and that's what the pros are doing when they go to a tournament WITHOUT sponsorship.

My "pool revenue" was over $250,000 a year when I was competing with sponsorship and everything pool related I was doing at the time. Not only me, but Earl, Johnny, Sigel, Hopkins, Mizerak, Rempe, Efren, Bustemante, etc were all making 6 Figures. This was because of TV and I put on 9 TV shows myself and over 70 as the PCA Director of Operations with ESPN.....and the WPBA put on even more TV Events.

I know "times have changed" and that's the problem, the "pool world" has gotten away from what works and is only doing things that don't work for the Pros. I wish more of them would post on here and you'd see most all feel the same way, thus the Bonus Ball situation. I can't blame them for doing something that "might work" as opposed to doing the "same ole thing" that is proven NOT TO WORK. for 70% of the players.

I'm solution oriented, and it rubs some people wrong, don't hold that against me. One things for certain, "if you keep doing the same thing you will continue to get the same results"....and the Pro Players can't stand that much longer. However, they don't make guaranteed money and that's the "difference that makes the difference" between the promoters/sponsors and the players. Not in all cases, but in most cases imho.

'The Game seeks a Solution'

 

[CJ Wiley]

you DO have to have a good production which is the real problem.

CJ - Gary

Id like an answer on this one.

Do you think Greg Sullivan made money on DCC the first year? or the second? or the third?

How many YEARS do you think it took to make a dollar to the good?

ANSWER?

It cracks me up that Pool players think the Promotor is getting rich, the fans think the pool players are making a killing, that damn TAR is making a ton, Gary thinks the Director is too big of a rake.

The fact is none of them are making anything.

Ken

I've never said the promoters are getting rich, Ken, and if you thing "none of them are making anything"....I must respectfully disagree, I know that end of the business too. I promoted a LOT of tournaments and had TV at almost ALL of them. TV is miss understood on purpose.

It's not nearly as difficult to do as some would lead you to believe, however you DO have to have a good production which is the real problem.

 

[AtLarge]

I can answer this one. It is not! This is money that is used to pay the staff and the cost of bringing in the tables and lights and setting up the room. Also there are administrative costs (the unseen costs) like advertising (see all those full page Ads, they aren't cheap), insurance (also not cheap), printing, mailing, etc. etc. I'm guessing based on my past experience, it costs a minimum of 50K for Greg to produce this event. Let's not forget that he also adds 90K+ to the purse (10K Banks, 15K One Pocket, 25K 9-Ball, 25K All Around, 18K Bigfoot Challenge). Do you begin to get the picture now? It's not a cheap date by any means.

Nope, certainly not cheap. If all players exercised their buy-in option (some probably did not), that produced over $65,000 at the DCC in 2013 to help with the expenses.

 

[The Saw]

Gary,

Too often the players and critics say things like this. After the fees, it is ONLY a $3k added event! As Jay and others have pointed out, show me a small event that has a better answer. It is not poker or similar.

The venue has to give up their tables for 2-4 days, and still provide most of the services. A good room operator can make it work - but if it is a regional tour, there are expenses to overcome. Look at these things as a user fee. I think you are bein naive if you think these expenses do not have to be convered by the people using the premises.

I love your passion and participation. But things are expensive these days and if the tournaments don'e pay their way, they will cease to exist. And it is not usually greed - it is expenses.

Sponsors contributing pool items is OK - but it never works out like it does on paper.And paying the director from another source - not from entry fees is just meaning the added money will be $4,500 instead of $5,000. The expense does not go away.

Charging a small door charge usually is a bad idea. You have to pay someone to be an a**hole at the door and piss off people and make very little money (if any). And it removes most of the goodwill the event was supposed to create.

Mark Griffin

I ran a 24 hour / 24 table room for over 6 years, we held at least two $1,000 added tourneys a year, one $5,000 added a year, and did two $10,000 added. All of the above is spot on...... Everyone thinks that since the place is packed the whole weekend that we made a lot more money than we actually did, not so, we lost a significant amount of our regular business in doing so. Definitley worth it in the long run though.....

 

[Mark Griffin]

...and about $13,000 in lost rent for "courtesy".

I understand that the schedule is not perfect for you Mark, and sure $13k is not a ton of money compared to a million, but it's still a gigantic sum of money. I really don't understand how you could ever expect someone to forfeit that simply out of courtesy.

Hi Nathan,

I would have responded earlier but I was at a beautiful wedding in California. John Bertone and his lovely (now) wife Elisa invited Sunny and I and we had a grand time. First time ever to Catalina.

I have read some of the responses to your post and many comments were made. Since your response was addressed to me, I felt it appropriate that I respond.

First of all; I agree the schedule is not perfect for me - OR THE REST OF THE INDUSTRY.

Courtesy: Goes a long ways and it is hard to put a value on it. But I really feel it would be better for the industry (and all of us in it) if there was better communication.

$$$$- You are right, $13,000 is not much when compared to $1M. But don't you think it would have been money well spent if you could have caused the industry to all pull in the same direction? Wouldn't you feel better if you could look the players in the eye and KNOW you could be helping them - WITHOUT making them choose between BB and existing events?
This would mean something to me. I would think it would also mean something to you and BB. I am sure it would mean something to the players (and sponsors).

Nobody is asking you to forfeit $13,000 - we are suggesting you to consider the plight of the players. These conflicting schedules have put the players right in the middle. It is not a place where they belong.

So - here is a solution: Since you stated the 'cost' of this 'courtesy' is $13,000 in potential lost rent revenue.

I WILL PAY THE $13,000

You would agree to eliminate the BB play from June 20 - 29, and from July 17- 27th. This would allow all the players the option of playing in these events without any risk of conflict with the WPBL. This would eliminate conflicts with the Ultimate 10-Ball, Southern Classic, and the US Open events held in July.


I hope you think this is a fair compromise. I just want the industry to be in a win-win situation. This will allow the players the option of being able to play where they want without being penalized. This is a win-win for the industry!

If you wish to discuss this further, you know how to get in touch with me. I know $13,000 is a lot of money. - but it is the right thing to do. I think it would be money well spent.

(As a disclaimer, this offer will not stand indefinitely).

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

 

[Ken_4fun]

I've never said the promoters are getting rich, Ken, and if you thing "none of them are making anything"....I must respectfully disagree, I know that end of the business too. I promoted a LOT of tournaments and had TV at almost ALL of them. TV is miss understood on purpose.

It's not nearly as difficult to do as some would lead you to believe, however you DO have to have a good production which is the real problem.

My point CJ is, Greg Sullivan ran DCC for years while not making anything. Yes, he does well on it now.

For that reason, he has my respect and gratitude.

You say its not nearly as difficult as some would lead you to believe, but I have only seen Greg do it and do it well.

The US Open? nope.

Ken

 

[jay helfert]

Nope, certainly not cheap. If all players exercised their buy-in option (some probably did not), that produced over $65,000 at the DCC in 2013 to help with the expenses.

The real figure is less than half of that. MANY players who lose in the early rounds do not buy back! Greg says that if he covers his All Around money (25K) with the buy backs he's happy.

 

[one stroke]

You made it clear in an earlier post that we "can't agree on anything" when I offered to help you with your referee issues. What you need to understand is I'm willing to help for free. I'm NOT willing to pay to work, and that's what the pros are doing when they go to a tournament WITHOUT sponsorship.

My "pool revenue" was over $250,000 a year when I was competing with sponsorship and everything pool related I was doing at the time. Not only me, but Earl, Johnny, Sigel, Hopkins, Mizerak, Rempe, Efren, Bustemante, etc were all making 6 Figures. This was because of TV and I put on 9 TV shows myself and over 70 as the PCA Director of Operations with ESPN.....and the WPBA put on even more TV Events.

I know "times have changed" and that's the problem, the "pool world" has gotten away from what works and is only doing things that don't work for the Pros. I wish more of them would post on here and you'd see most all feel the same way, thus the Bonus Ball situation. I can't blame them for doing something that "might work" as opposed to doing the "same ole thing" that is proven NOT TO WORK. for 70% of the players.

I'm solution oriented, and it rubs some people wrong, don't hold that against me. One things for certain, "if you keep doing the same thing you will continue to get the same results"....and the Pro Players can't stand that much longer. However, they don't make guaranteed money and that's the "difference that makes the difference" between the promoters/sponsors and the players. Not in all cases, but in most cases imho.

'The Game seeks a Solution'

Those were inflated numbers and still left many other pros struggling also because espn was throwing money around now they have cornerd alot of other markets , I dont see those numbers in site anytime soon

1

 

[AtLarge]

The real figure is less than half of that. MANY players who lose in the early rounds do not buy back! Greg says that if he covers his All Around money (25K) with the buy backs he's happy.

Thanks for giving us a sense of the true figure, Jay.

 

[CJ Wiley]

ESPN was putting in over $300,000 a year, Simonis Cloth, APA and DIAMOND was .......

Those were inflated numbers and still left many other pros struggling also because espn was throwing money around now they have cornerd alot of other markets , I dont see those numbers in site anytime soon

1

Actually the real numbers were even higher, I've been taught to publicly disclose conservative numbers. ESPN was putting in over $300,000 a year, Simonis Cloth, APA and DIAMOND was putting in an enormous amount as well into PRO POOL. I have a feeling this is not being done or maybe indirectly these days, I'd have to ask Johnny Archer how it's been the last few years.

When the Pro Tour fell apart in the late 90s the Sponsors that were putting up the TV money had to do their own thing. This wasn't anyone's fault, but it did have an detrimental effect on the future, and now the present of Pro Pool.

 

[one stroke]

Actually the real numbers were even higher, I've been taught to publicly disclose conservative numbers. ESPN was putting in over $300,000 a year, Simonis Cloth, APA and DIAMOND was putting in an enormous amount as well into PRO POOL. I have a feeling this is not being done or maybe indirectly these days, I'd have to ask Johnny Archer how it's been the last few years.

When the Pro Tour fell apart in the late 90s the Sponsors that were putting up the TV money had to do their own thing. This wasn't anyone's fault, but it did have an detrimental effect on the future, and now the present of Pro Pool.

Either way it was a gold rush that favored the top

1

 

[justadub]

I WILL PAY THE $13,000

Strong.

Very strong.