Same old argument. Research can't find talent. What it finds is that all those who are the best have put in MORE time and deeper commitment than their competitors.
Corey Deuel is the new U.S. National Snooker Champion.
- Thread starter CBuck
- Start date
Same old argument. Research can't find talent. What it finds is that all those who are the best have put in MORE time and deeper commitment than their competitors.
What's the population in the Philippines guess Im stuck on stupid
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yup.... WPA shows 5 of the top 10 pool players are now from China or Chinese Taipei..... Philippines has 2... Germany 2 and England 1
How much did Cory win?
Lets be honest
To even imply that some athletes aren't more talented than their competitors who had the same amount of practice and commitment is absurd. Mark Sanchez practices as much as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning..and with a commitment at being as good as he can be...Brady and Manning are more talented..period
To even imply that some athletes aren't more talented than their competitors who had the same amount of practice and commitment is absurd. Mark Sanchez practices as much as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning..and with a commitment at being as good as he can be...Brady and Manning are more talented..period
Corey Duel
I expect the actual data will be corrected, but Corey's high run in semi and finals seems to be 59. Corey both times seemed disturbed (disgruntled, unsatisfied, disappointed) to not have set the high run. This seemed almost to negate the goal of winning the tournament.
Call it perfectionist, but Corey seemed to be playing with his normal pool cue with a super tapered / turned down OB-1 shaft. THIS IS SIGNIFICANT. While this seems fine, without a proper snooker cue, Corey had to use - or consider to use - the 9-foot cue / bridge combo that looks more like a pole vaulter's pool than the more familiar to Corey pool bridge.
Once he made a shot in the semi finals, but almost speared a ceiling tile trying to handle this behemoth cue/bridge combo. WOW !!
He turned down a shot option stating he doubted he could get these items out our the cue's path. This make the win tougher iin many ways. Kudos for Corey's tenacity to win.
Others would simple screw some extendable extension into their snooker cue, and up the precision in their shot's results.
This advantage versus an Hager 4-feet long extension using a pool cue is a important detail in predicable results. One miss is a significant event in a snooker match.
I expect the actual data will be corrected, but Corey's high run in semi and finals seems to be 59. Corey both times seemed disturbed (disgruntled, unsatisfied, disappointed) to not have set the high run. This seemed almost to negate the goal of winning the tournament.
Call it perfectionist, but Corey seemed to be playing with his normal pool cue with a super tapered / turned down OB-1 shaft. THIS IS SIGNIFICANT. While this seems fine, without a proper snooker cue, Corey had to use - or consider to use - the 9-foot cue / bridge combo that looks more like a pole vaulter's pool than the more familiar to Corey pool bridge.
Once he made a shot in the semi finals, but almost speared a ceiling tile trying to handle this behemoth cue/bridge combo. WOW !!
He turned down a shot option stating he doubted he could get these items out our the cue's path. This make the win tougher iin many ways. Kudos for Corey's tenacity to win.
Others would simple screw some extendable extension into their snooker cue, and up the precision in their shot's results.
This advantage versus an Hager 4-feet long extension using a pool cue is a important detail in predicable results. One miss is a significant event in a snooker match.
You not grasping the point by you theory USA should have many more good players than the Philippines but that's hardly the case.
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I had a 6/12 Snooker table in my room for years.
I had a 6/12 Snooker table in my room for years....I sold it about 8 years ago, LOOK, it's still for sale in Dallas, Google searches are "the nutz"
http://dallas.listlux.com/a,49,1903...r-System-with-Theater-like-Sound----145--.htm
I had a 6/12 Snooker table in my room for years....I sold it about 8 years ago, LOOK, it's still for sale in Dallas, Google searches are "the nutz"
http://dallas.listlux.com/a,49,1903...r-System-with-Theater-like-Sound----145--.htm
I think talent is talent...
I have rarely played snooker. The last time I played was in Idaho on a 5x10 and I had a 80 or so break.
I've probably played snooker a dozen times in the last 5-7 years.
I usually prefer to play on a 6x12 but finding any snooker tables with the right felt etc is difficult in the states.
there was one in Corpus Cristi at what's his name's place...Former California boy who moved there for the wind surfing. It was in decent shape.
I understand there are quite a few up in San Gabriel but they charge like 16-20 an hour and when I play I play for 6-10 hours so I can't afford to practice up there very often.
There are a bunch of 6x12s in socal but they are almost without exception setup for golf with extra tight pockets and simonis felt. Not good for practicing on.
When I was at Eric's (Fatboys) in Vegas the last time, he had his riley but the rails were wrong so I didn't get a chance to play on it.
When I get a big enough place, I'd love to get a riley of my own.
Me and Sam manoale used to play 8 ball games on the snooker table at OnCue in San D.
I played some liability with johannes kohanenberg (sp.) at OnCue when he was in the states. That was some fun times. After playing he told me he didn't realize how good I could play until we played snooker.
I hope he'll be able to come back sometime..
I won't play on the snooker table at College, it rolls off too much...
I sincerely hope that Corey does well in the world's and maybe even considers making a run for it in the UK...
I think that it's entirely possible, especially for someone with as much drive and natural talent as Corey. So many people whom I respect greatly have told me that Corey can do anything if he sets his mind on it.
Corey if you ever want to, I'd love to practice some snooker with you...
Jaden
I have rarely played snooker. The last time I played was in Idaho on a 5x10 and I had a 80 or so break.
I've probably played snooker a dozen times in the last 5-7 years.
I usually prefer to play on a 6x12 but finding any snooker tables with the right felt etc is difficult in the states.
there was one in Corpus Cristi at what's his name's place...Former California boy who moved there for the wind surfing. It was in decent shape.
I understand there are quite a few up in San Gabriel but they charge like 16-20 an hour and when I play I play for 6-10 hours so I can't afford to practice up there very often.
There are a bunch of 6x12s in socal but they are almost without exception setup for golf with extra tight pockets and simonis felt. Not good for practicing on.
When I was at Eric's (Fatboys) in Vegas the last time, he had his riley but the rails were wrong so I didn't get a chance to play on it.
When I get a big enough place, I'd love to get a riley of my own.
Me and Sam manoale used to play 8 ball games on the snooker table at OnCue in San D.
I played some liability with johannes kohanenberg (sp.) at OnCue when he was in the states. That was some fun times. After playing he told me he didn't realize how good I could play until we played snooker.
I hope he'll be able to come back sometime..
I won't play on the snooker table at College, it rolls off too much...
I sincerely hope that Corey does well in the world's and maybe even considers making a run for it in the UK...
I think that it's entirely possible, especially for someone with as much drive and natural talent as Corey. So many people whom I respect greatly have told me that Corey can do anything if he sets his mind on it.
Corey if you ever want to, I'd love to practice some snooker with you...
Jaden
The USA does have many more good players than the Philippines. Our average skill is much higher but they have more top players of high skill. This has mostly to do with concentration of top players and competitive backing which is now dwindling since the gambler money is almost gone from pool there.
The US players, going all the way back to Nick Varner have a pretty strong record against the Filipino players. Most tournaments in the USA where the top Filipino players have played in during the past 30 years have not been won by Filipino players. And in heads-up matches American players have held their own substantially.
Well that's not what I have been told by players who have gone there and played so I don't know where your getting your info from
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I went to Shooters in Toronto tonight and because of this thread counted the Snooker tables, there were 7 of them and in pristine shape just as the 9' and 7' tables are.
The long game depends upon razor sharp eyesight and steady nerves along with a great stroke. If a person still has the benefit of those assets at any age, he could develop a very good long game.
I grew up playing snooker in the USA. But it was American Snooker on 10' tables. At 15 years old, I could trounce everyone I knew and never encountered a snooker player that could stay with me until I was 40 or so (and he was Canadian). Dave Matlock grew up playing snooker but transitioned to pool while still fairly young. Louie Roberts liked to play snooker.
Just rambling here but I must say that I do like all these discussions about snooker. A rebirth of snooker of any sort in this country would please me to no end. This time it should strictly be international rules and standards though (minus the stupid dress codes :grin: ). The world could then be shocked by the quality of American snooker players that would result.
Corey played very well and I'm proud and glad that he won that tournament, but have to say a 33 man turnout for a tournament to determine the US National Snooker Championships winner is an embarrassment, especially considering the poor level of play overall. My little home town of Greenfield, MO. used to have that many show up at a monthly tournament and the skills shown were at least comparable to those in Houston. Then again, I guess having such a tournament at all is better than nothing.
I grew up playing snooker in the USA. But it was American Snooker on 10' tables. At 15 years old, I could trounce everyone I knew and never encountered a snooker player that could stay with me until I was 40 or so (and he was Canadian). Dave Matlock grew up playing snooker but transitioned to pool while still fairly young. Louie Roberts liked to play snooker.
Just rambling here but I must say that I do like all these discussions about snooker. A rebirth of snooker of any sort in this country would please me to no end. This time it should strictly be international rules and standards though (minus the stupid dress codes :grin: ). The world could then be shocked by the quality of American snooker players that would result.
Corey played very well and I'm proud and glad that he won that tournament, but have to say a 33 man turnout for a tournament to determine the US National Snooker Championships winner is an embarrassment, especially considering the poor level of play overall. My little home town of Greenfield, MO. used to have that many show up at a monthly tournament and the skills shown were at least comparable to those in Houston. Then again, I guess having such a tournament at all is better than nothing.
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It was not the US Open Snooker Tournament. It was the US National Snooker Championships. The top two get to represent the US in the World Championships (amateur). Also, we ended up with 33 players, which I think is the largest field we have ever had for the National Championships. And the field was generally agreed to be the strongest overall that we have had. It would be nice if there were a few centuries in every match but as was noted above all of the players (save one) have day jobs not related to playing snooker.
At least snooker and carom have US National Championships. Pool does not, except for the Juniors.
Bob Jewett
Treasurer, US Snooker Association
me personally....
I personally think that the reason it is more difficult for pool players to transition to snooker is due to something that is rarely mentioned.
I think it's the size of the balls, not the tables...
sighting those smaller balls is different than sighting the bigger balls. It lends itself more to precision play.
Most pool players play the pockets or aim for the facings to give themselves more play.
You can't do that on rounded snooker pockets.
If you aren't used to aiming differently or more precisely, the difficulty in transitioning to snooker from pool can be or at least seem to be insurmountable.
I still feel that it's possible, but only time will tell.
Jaden
I personally think that the reason it is more difficult for pool players to transition to snooker is due to something that is rarely mentioned.
I think it's the size of the balls, not the tables...
sighting those smaller balls is different than sighting the bigger balls. It lends itself more to precision play.
Most pool players play the pockets or aim for the facings to give themselves more play.
You can't do that on rounded snooker pockets.
If you aren't used to aiming differently or more precisely, the difficulty in transitioning to snooker from pool can be or at least seem to be insurmountable.
I still feel that it's possible, but only time will tell.
Jaden
Bob, of course you are correct about the proper name of the tournament but my mistake was based upon Snooker 147 repeatedly calling it the name I used on their facebook page. Apologies.
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/2836785/events/2121022/videos/19931328
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/2836785/events/2121022/videos/19931328
Was it an open event, or did the players have to qualify somehow (or be invited)?
No one is saying top players don't put in the time. What they're saying is they have a certain amount of "talent" that in conjunction with time at the table leads to being a great player.
In most of the pool rooms in the Philippines there are more average and poor players than good players. In the USA there are more average to good players in the pool rooms.
The Philippines definitely has a deep pool of skilled players relative to their population but it is my experience that expressed as a percentage of people playing we have many more A and B level players (B being an APA 7) than they do.
Jay Helfert has written quite a bit about him going to many poolrooms there and being one of the best players if not the best in the room. Often they have to call someone to play him.
But not to quibble over actual numbers let's examine the reason why there would be a lot of very good players in the Philippines? One is density, lots of people jammed together increases competition for resources. So people hanging out in pool rooms who gamble are going to have a greater pool of competition for backing. The only way to get backed is to develop a high degree of skill and be able to maintain it under pressure. The other reason is money in the game, if money comes in through whatever means then that will attract more people to play and bet. Money attracts money and pool players only need a cue to ply their trade, they don't need fancy training facilities. So with the low barrier to entry and the opportunity to make decent money playing pool there are two factors.
But then you have Efren Reyes becoming a national hero winning the World Championships and that inspires a nation. Because in a small country like the Philippines people can still be inspired by notable accomplishments in obscure sports.
So that's why the Philippines has a deep pool of top players relative to the USA. But the pool of "good" players is deeper still in the USA because in both countries the average player is playing mostly recreationally, even the competitions are recreational.
The question remains though, what would things look like if there were a proper coaching and training environment? For any billiards game? Would the highest possible levels be achieved?
I don't think that any pool player has yet reached the fullest potential of where they could be as pool players and certainly not as snooker players.
I am really curious, as a thought experiment, what would happen if Johnny Archer and Ronnie O'Sullivan locked horns for two solid months on the snooker table. I am certain that in the first month Ronnie would torture Johnny, but after Johnny learned the moves and what shots to take and what to pass? What then, would it just be a question of accuracy at that point?
We will probably never know but I feel that if I were a top pool player I'd certainly want to know just for my own inner competitiveness. Of course the odds are against me and everyone would say it can't be done so what's to lose. Proving them right only allows them the I-told-you-so attitude but proving them wrong would show that again what people think is impossible on paper sometimes becomes possible in the real world.
I understand what you are saying but that "talent" seems to be very hard for science to find. Because in just about every case the people who excel and are regarded as supremely talented have put in more time, way more time, than their peers.
So all you have to do is find someone who did NOT put in the same amount or even less time who ALSO had more success. That would indicate that it's "talent" making up for the lack of training time.
Talent is developed not born. Sure someone may show aptitude for certain things, or may be more physically suited to certain things, no one who is 5'4 is ever going to be the world's best center in the NBA. But people have said that short people can't dunk. A little trip around youtube proves that wrong.
I have often heard the phrase from successful people when they are told that they are very talented, 'if you had worked as hard I have then you would talented too.' Time and again in interviews it comes out that most successful people don't like to hear that their success is attributed to being born with more talent than the next guy. They want you to know that they worked their ass off to get to the point they are at.
It was an open event.