In regards to Bonus Ball

Have any of you ever seen actual condescension? You have to read Nathan's message from a pretty negative mindset to see it that way, at least to my eyes.

Also, the number one factor that seems to have wadded many panties is Nathan's purported statement that AZB is not BB's target audience. It was pretty clear in context that he meant that the target audience is not solely AZB. But the meme has since taken on a life of its own. "My stars! Bonus Ball has a target audience and I am not included. [Flashback to getting picked last in third grade.] Then it is terrible and surely doomed to fail."*

Cory

* Phrase is used only as an illustration of condescension towards a hypothetical poster and is not intended to reference any actual forum member. Any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely coincidental. This post is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
 
I think I've figured out what the brainchild of this bonus ball was going after. Has anyone seen the movies baseketball and dodgeball? The production seems a bit like the "ESPN 8, the ocho", in Dodgeball and the team names are like baseketball. If they could get those guys that write Southpark (Trey and Matt) to write the scripts to bonus ball, ala baseketball, then they might be onto something.

It will still wreak, but may have a comedic value that allows it to last for a little while.
 
JCIN said:
Long as you want to make this a TAR vs BB thing thats cool. How about we at least get some facts first. What was the problem you experienced with TAR and what was the resolution if any. I have over the years fired a few customers simply because for various reasons some people are impossible to satisfy. I have a feeling this may be one of these cases but I am certainly willing to listen to what you have to say.

I try to go above and beyond for TAR customers. Sometimes its simply not possible and sometimes I screw up. I have no problem owning that. In a thread with simply bullshit numbers like 10,000 viewers and hundreds of thousands of views and visits in it though I would really like some details presented about the situation so that I can address it. One thing I find interesting is that Mark Griffin does not and never has had anything to do with customer service on PPV streams. He couldnt even if he wanted to as he has no knowledge of the system or how things work.
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I never made it, nor would I have any reason to want to make it, a TAR vs BB thing. I was simply responding to your advice to Nathan saying that he should just stop posting. Simply put, I disagreed with your advice and was simply giving contrary advice to him in that I believe that communication is necessary when a problem occurs.

People know that stuff happens and as long as they are kept informed they will forgive the bumps and keep the faith. Again, it was never a TAR vs BB thing. TAR was only used as an example, and a positive one at that, of how communication to customer concerns can help in keeping that customer happy. The context was simple in that a very small issue became larger because of poor communication and then TAR, in the person of Mark Griffin, resolved it with professional communication.

I would normally leave it at that but, since you asked, I would offer this. Remember, I stressed that the issue with the TAR broadcast that I referred to was not a big thing but the reason that it was annoying was that there was no reasonable communication from you in response. To jog your memory, when I outlined the situation to you previously you responded in a way that not only did not address the issue that was brought up but answered in a flippant way and I quote “It would make my life much easier if I never do another tournament again.” That was your response to a question that really boiled down to why you would abandon those watching a live stream.

Mark Griffin then had the wherewithal to weigh in with a reply that did not throw you under the bus for your lack of a professional response and poor manners (I admired that he handled it this way because I do think you do some things very well) by saying the following; “I believe I was the person to blame for this confusion. I am not going to apologize because I think we provided more than what was planned. The USBTC is a great event. And TAR did a great job streaming it. Just remember that we (CSI) tries to keep many people as content as possible. I am sorry if you feel that we let you down. We are responsive to customer complaints and constructive crtiticism.” That response was more than good enough for me.

By the way, the next post on that thread posted by THE HUNGARIAN said it well in response to Mark's post, and I quote, “Take note "Industry Professionals" this is how you respond to customer. Nice job Mark”

Unfortunately, you still don’t seem to get it. Instead it would appear that you prefer to respond with the veiled threat to “fire customers that are impossible to satisfy”. Sorry, that mind set is wrong, it lessens you, lessens those you represent and is not conducive to resolving anything; it doesn’t work, never has and I suggest you rethink your approach.


I do not think that any potential ‘customers’ care if BB uses hyperbole to illustrate their site crashing etc. they just want to know what BB will do about it. Their communication has been quite good and the offer to show the next week end free is a good solution. It allows everyone to see if the problems are worked out, see if they like the product and then make an informed buy decision for future streams. That may not have occurred without good communication.
 
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You folks are way, way to quick on the draw.

Every time a new restaurant opens up in my home town, people put a crush on the place. People stand in line for two hours out the front door and around the building. The feed back is horrible. Bad service, slow service, wrong food, cold food, overcooked/undercooked food, bad drinks, and on and on. I stay away and I don't take even one complaint seriously.

I allow months to pass. I give the restaurant time to weed out the employees that can't do the work and time for management to build a competent staff. Time and experience is needed in order to prepare food properly and consistently. Instituting systems to make a place run smoothly and efficiently do not happen over night. I pick the right time to get my first impression and it is long after the initial opening.

I have no dog in this Bonus Ball hunt but I will tell you this: I will check it out and it will be in a few months. Between now and then, I will have a deaf ear to every last negative comment (and positive comment also).
 
I have one statement to make to all you Bonus Ball haters. Bonus Ball is the best game I Never seen. Now get you some of that!
 
You folks are way, way to quick on the draw.

Every time a new restaurant opens up in my home town, people put a crush on the place. People stand in line for two hours out the front door and around the building. The feed back is horrible. Bad service, slow service, wrong food, cold food, overcooked/undercooked food, bad drinks, and on and on. I stay away and I don't take even one complaint seriously.

I allow months to pass. I give the restaurant time to weed out the employees that can't do the work and time for management to build a competent staff. Time and experience is needed in order to prepare food properly and consistently. Instituting systems to make a place run smoothly and efficiently do not happen over night. I pick the right time to get my first impression and it is long after the initial opening.

I have no dog in this Bonus Ball hunt but I will tell you this: I will check it out and it will be in a few months. Between now and then, I will have a deaf ear to every last negative comment (and positive comment also).
 
Paul Schofield said:
... I have no dog in this Bonus Ball hunt but I will tell you this: I will check it out and it will be in a few months. Between now and then, I will have a deaf ear to every last negative comment (and positive comment also).
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Bonus Ball does have one really weird rule, though, Paul. The breaker shoots after a legal break even if he made no ball. Horrors!:eek:
 
thewhiffer said:
I never made it, nor would I have any reason to want to make it, a TAR vs BB thing. I was simply responding to your advice to Nathan saying that he should just stop posting. Simply put, I disagreed with your advice and was simply giving contrary advice to him in that I believe that communication is necessary when a problem occurs.

People know that stuff happens and as long as they are kept informed they will forgive the bumps and keep the faith. Again, it was never a TAR vs BB thing. TAR was only used as an example, and a positive one at that, of how communication to customer concerns can help in keeping that customer happy. The context was simple in that a very small issue became larger because of poor communication and then TAR, in the person of Mark Griffin, resolved it with professional communication.

I would normally leave it at that but, since you asked, I would offer this. Remember, I stressed that the issue with the TAR broadcast that I referred to was not a big thing but the reason that it was annoying was that there was no reasonable communication from you in response. To jog your memory, when I outlined the situation to you previously you responded in a way that not only did not address the issue that was brought up but answered in a flippant way and I quote “It would make my life much easier if I never do another tournament again.” That was your response to a question that really boiled down to why you would abandon those watching a live stream.

Mark Griffin then had the wherewithal to weigh in with a reply that did not throw you under the bus for your lack of a professional response and poor manners (I admired that he handled it this way because I do think you do some things very well) by saying the following; “I believe I was the person to blame for this confusion. I am not going to apologize because I think we provided more than what was planned. The USBTC is a great event. And TAR did a great job streaming it. Just remember that we (CSI) tries to keep many people as content as possible. I am sorry if you feel that we let you down. We are responsive to customer complaints and constructive crtiticism.” That response was more than good enough for me.

By the way, the next post on that thread posted by THE HUNGARIAN said it well in response to Mark's post, and I quote, “Take note "Industry Professionals" this is how you respond to customer. Nice job Mark”

Unfortunately, you still don’t seem to get it. Instead it would appear that you prefer to respond with the veiled threat to “fire customers that are impossible to satisfy”. Sorry, that mind set is wrong, it lessens you, lessens those you represent and is not conducive to resolving anything; it doesn’t work, never has and I suggest you rethink your approach.


I do not think that any potential ‘customers’ care if BB uses hyperbole to illustrate their site crashing etc. they just want to know what BB will do about it. Their communication has been quite good and the offer to show the next week end free is a good solution. It allows everyone to see if the problems are worked out, see if they like the product and then make an informed buy decision for future streams. That may not have occurred without good communication.
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The situation you refer to was a personal pain in my ass. When I wrote that I was still salty about it and agree I was a bigger asshole than I should have been. There is a long story behind it that doesnt have anything to do with you at all and unfairly I gave you some of the heat for it. I apologize for that.

You have a point that I dogged it in that spot.
 
JCIN said:
The situation you refer to was a personal pain in my ass. When I wrote that I was still salty about it and agree I was a bigger asshole than I should have been. There is a long story behind it that doesnt have anything to do with you at all and unfairly I gave you some of the heat for it. I apologize for that.

You have a point that I dogged it in that spot.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the market you are targeting is different than what BB is trying to target so I don't see it as the same thing
They are trying to re invent the wheel and IMHO their not doing a very good job
Frankly the product is seriously lacking it might be something for leagues but for the viewing masses I can't see it becoming something that will bring major viewership in a prime time viewing market looks more like 3 am material at best

1
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
You're certainly no stranger to negative comments Paul, both giving and receiving.
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You are right about that, particularly on the status of some of our rules of the game (and dress code). But I will add to that, I am very careful not to jump the gun and disparage enterpises that seek to grow and improve that status of our game.
 
Murphys Law never fails.
It will all work out soon and the haters will still hate , the whiners will still whine and everyone else will go on with their lives.
Good luck to you and everyone involved, and thanks for coming on and giving an explanation .
 
Yin/Yang

the longer I live the more I understand that everything balances in the end. An advance one direction leads to a retreat in another. When one thing rises another must fall. Even if the pie gets bigger, now 1000 channels and practically unlimited on-demand content there are winners and losers.

The only constant is time, each day comes and goes and when it's gone it's gone. It's pointless to discuss the possible future of things because no matter what that future is will be of almost zero consequence for most of us. For those that can be impacted they are the ones who should not be discussing but planning for what may come.

The rest of us are simply chattering away about the yin or the yang and allowing ourselves to be pulled along on the winds of opinion like leaves in the wind, blown this way and that with no will of our own.

I am not even sure what the yin or the yang is here. I hope everyone gets what they want out it even though I know it's probably improbable.
 
Interestingly, the BB stream debacle results in BB free streaming next weekend right up against the TAR 35 PPV.

I don't know about you guys, but if I can watch pool next weekend I will be on SVB/Orcollo. In fact I may just buy it on G.P.'s even if I can't watch it.

Streaming problems aside, BB has been discussed here ad nauseam for a long time. I've seen the tutorial and promos, and read plenty about it and the game just doesn't grab me. I don't hate any of it but it just doesn't do it for me. I guess what I'm saying is in my case they are probably correct, I don't think I'm their target market. I confess that all these BB threads have gotten my attention but it's not because I'm enthralled by the game or the WPBL concept. My interest is more of a Harvard Business School case study kind of thing.

Of course, what do I know. To me there is nothing so beautiful as straight pool expertly played. ;)
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Interestingly, the BB stream debacle results in BB free streaming next weekend right up against the TAR 35 PPV.

I don't know about you guys, but if I can watch pool next weekend I will be on SVB/Orcollo. In fact I may just buy it on G.P.'s even if I can't watch it.

Streaming problems aside, BB has been discussed here ad nauseam for a long time. I've seen the tutorial and promos, and read plenty about it and the game just doesn't grab me. I don't hate any of it but it just doesn't do it for me. I guess what I'm saying is in my case they are probably correct, I don't think I'm their target market. I confess that all these BB threads have gotten my attention but it's not because I'm enthralled by the game or the WPBL concept. My interest is more of a Harvard Business School case study kind of thing.

Of course, what do I know. To me there is nothing so beautiful as straight pool expertly played. ;)
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This post pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject of bonus ball.

It will be interesting to see if they can overcome the failure of the first couple of days of streaming, and how they go about doing it. I'm not to impressed with their approach so far, I must admit. I was actually going to purchase a week of streaming just out of curiousity, but now I won't. It really does not matter since I'm not the target audience, I guess.

Oh well, best of luck.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Interestingly, the BB stream debacle results in BB free streaming next weekend right up against the TAR 35 PPV.

I don't know about you guys, but if I can watch pool next weekend I will be on SVB/Orcollo. In fact I may just buy it on G.P.'s even if I can't watch it.

Streaming problems aside, BB has been discussed here ad nauseam for a long time. I've seen the tutorial and promos, and read plenty about it and the game just doesn't grab me. I don't hate any of it but it just doesn't do it for me. I guess what I'm saying is in my case they are probably correct, I don't think I'm their target market. I confess that all these BB threads have gotten my attention but it's not because I'm enthralled by the game or the WPBL concept. My interest is more of a Harvard Business School case study kind of thing.

Of course, what do I know. To me there is nothing so beautiful as straight pool expertly played. ;)
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Well TAR has been up against quality free and PPV streams at other times. Everyone has competition but I honestly doubt TAR will lose many if any viewers to BB. If anything people may watch it simultaneously or try to.

It will be an interesting study to see if someone can repackage the game and make a new league in the face of declining interest in pool. Not since the IPT have we had this much controversy.

All I know is Cleary can played some BB next time I am at the SBE. :-)

$10 a point.
 
As long as you're out there helping Justin and the rest of us on AZ, what could go wrong, right Pocket Point.
 
nathandumoulin said:
I've been too busy with damage control to check the forums this weekend, but I'm assuming things here are pretty bitter and negative. I just wanted to quickly make a statement or two.

For one, I run the production company. I'm not a network guy, nor is that my job, nor is it that of anyone else on my crew. Those services are offered by a dedicated company. My crew runs a massive production setup here, and push a stream to the servers. What happens past that point is not my concern (although Im totally to blame for the missing audio on the first 10 minutes on day 1 however.

Both the website hosting and video delivery network crashed under the high traffic. They said it wouldn't but clearly it did. It's unfortunate, but it happens. Although today the host switched us over to a tier 3 VPS and promised it would handle the load (plus I personally added some additional horsepower to the server in hopes of saving the day), it still got crushed within minutes. We ended up just streaming a low quality feed to ustream at the lowest bitrate possible, which clearly sucked ass.

Unfortunate? Absolutely. But catastrophic? Far from it.

What really mattered is what happened here at the venue. The game is amazing, the production was awesome, and the venue looks incredible. Best of all, the players are more into this than anything ive ever seen. The investors are pumped, the network people that came through are all over it, and the casino reps have schedule further meetings.

At the end of the day, a stream is just a stream. It’s unfortunate that viewers were disappointed and unable to watch anything short of mediocrity, but in the big picture, the core of what we aimed for was a success.

We have the matches in 1080p, recorded in flawless quality, and will be releasing them soon. All other matches this week will be recorded, but not streamed (until the network people solve the problem). Week 2 will be free to everyone (assuming we get the system fixed in time), and anyone who purchased will get their subscription extended 2 additional weeks.

For those of you who want to remain negative, feel free. It doesn't bother us one bit, nor do we blame you. You only see what goes online, and that has obviously been a disaster. And for those who enjoyed what little they saw of the game, then thanks for standing by us, and get ready for an incredible season.

A shit stream or not, Bonus Ball is here to stay.

PS. Read more about it here. http://www.wpbltv.com/news/wpbl-debut-match/14
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Nathan, no doubt you're great at vid production, but you blow big honkin' chunks when it comes to being a spokesmodel. Do everyone concerned a favor and step back from the keyboard for awhile.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Nathan, no doubt you're great at vid production, but you blow big honkin' chunks when it comes to being a spokesmodel. Do everyone concerned a favor and step back from the keyboard for awhile.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou, this is a situation where they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Nathan is only the messenger, yet he's getting pummeled to death on this forum with all kinds of replies, ranging from constructive criticism to personal attacks.

Yes, BB should have a PR spokesperson, but for whatever reason, they don't. Still, I don't think Nathan is deserving of some -- not all -- of the posts about BB. It is as if people are holding Nathan accountable.

At least he is attempting to address inquiries and concerns. It's more than what I've witnessed other industry members do, from reading this forum over the years. If Nathan did not reply, as some others industry members are wont to doing, he would still be getting slammed.
 
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