What just happened between Shane & JJ on TAR stream?

[CreeDo]

When a touching ball has been called, the striker must play the cueball away from that ball without moving it or it is a push stroke.

Snooker is a whole different animal and probably shouldn't even be brought up.
In snooker you flat out can't play the frozen ball, you cannot budge it even a millimeter.

If, for example, you shot almost parallel to the tangent line, thinly grazing the object ball as the cue ball
rolls away, they label it a "push stroke" even though it absolutely is not a push, it's just a normal stroke
and no double hit has occurred.

In pool this shot is entirely legal, frozen or not.

For practical purposes, a push shot is simply a double hit that happens so fast that it's hard to see.
Though there are weird shots where the cue tip can stay on the cue ball a long time (like when an OB
is wedged between the CB and rail) and that's also a considered a push. But that's very rare.

99% of the time when people cry "push!", they're saying the shooter double hit the cue ball.

In theory, if there's no gap, it's not considered a push in pool, and you can shoot straight into the OB.
Both balls scurry away from the tip simultaneously.
However a double hit is still possible, if the tip is still accelerating and the CB doesn't move away
quickly enough, your follow through can hit the CB again and give it a little extra boost.
You don't see the second hit but the rapid rolling action of the cue ball gives it away.

I suspect the snooker rule was implemented to avoid arguments about whether a double hit may have
occurred anyway. Whereas in pool we let the ref suffer through making difficult judgment calls like
this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bz91kJcVB7A#t=113s

In pool, each tournament has 2 way of handling frozen cue balls.

Version A: the shooter must not shoot directly into the frozen balls, he must shoot away at an angle
(similar to my example image above)
Version B: the shooter can shoot any way he wants into the frozen balls, even straight at them.

To reiterate what someone else pointed out earlier. Jeremy's complaint was NOT that he felt
Shane pushed (aka double hit) the cue ball. His complaint is that he thought the tournament
was using "version A", but after shane's push, the ref claimed they were going by "version B".
Jeremy apparently felt like they changed the rule mid-tournament or ignored it just to humor shane.

As for the whole ball cleaning thing... if you watch TAR's stream and pay attention, those balls
are highly polished and the big black scuff marks caused by diamond's pockets are obvious,
you can see these rubbery black skid marks on several object balls.

Good players know that hitting that mark can definitely alter the path of the object ball,
and cause a perfectly aimed shot to miss.

I'm sure some of you have played 50 years without ever cleaning the balls midrack.
And I'm also sure you had many balls skid on you during that time
and you either didn't know or didn't care. You're playing for fun, or you're playing a set,
or you're playing joebob's weekly bar tournament. If a skid costs you the match, there's
more matches next week and you can just hit up the ATM. So it's no biggie.

This is a major tournament that comes around just once a year. If a skid costs you the match,
you're out and you won't get another shot for 12 months. So yeah, players are gonna take precautions
and ask for balls to be cleaned. It's not nitpicking, it's necessary.

 

[SakuJack]

Snooker is a whole different animal and probably shouldn't even be brought up.

I agree, I was just clarifying for someone who questioned if this was the same as the snooker ruling.

For what it's worth, I prefer the snooker rule - it avoids confusion and stops the petty debates.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

The problem was not with cleaning the ball. Shane asked if it could be rotated so that the scuff mark was not at the point of contact. Jeremy said that you can't ask that a ball be spun. You can ask if it can be cleaned, but not rotated.

Kenny came to the table and I don't know if he was asked to clean the ball or rotate the ball, but he did not have a ball marker with him and rotated the ball. That was enough for Jeremy and he unscrewed.

I believe he has asked to be forfeited out of the event and wants his money back for the 8-ball event.

Mike

WPA rule 1.8 does allow for balls to be cleaned. Nowhere in the WPA rules does it mention being able to rotate a ball.

1.8 Restoring a Position
When necessary for balls to be restored or cleaned, the referee will restore disturbed balls to their original positions to the best of his ability. The players must accept the referee’s judgment as to placement.​

It's astonishing that Shane even asked that the ball be rotated instead of cleaned and that the referee complied with the request. The referee's decision was clearly in error.

 

[Hungarian]

How did he become monied? Inheritance? I'm genuinely asking...didn't realize he was rich.

What business is it of yours?

So what. Its not like he won it or worked for it. Johnnyt

Johnnyt, you are a real piece of ...................................................................................................................................................................... work. And I mean a real steaming piece of .................................................................................................work. An really stinky piece of .......................................................................................................................................work

 

[Okie]

I think they should install one of these about every third or fourth table! Would solve all this!

 

[ScottyDzntKnow]

Id tuck that comment back in the safe..Im sure he would have much rather worked than the circumstances of that money..

Everyone thinks they know how money was gained parker

 

[3andstop]

I agree with Jumpin Joe. Nothing should be touched during a game. I dont know where this came from, but its wrong. I played for thousands in the 70's ( of my own money ) and never even noticed if any ball was 'dirty'. I've played 20-30 hour sets and never thought to clean the balls. I've played on tables that were too dirty to clean , and balls that were dis-colored from never being cleaned. When did pool become so 'dainty' ??
Golfers play for millions with mud on the ball, scrapes, tree sap, etc. Only after the ball is on the green can you take it out of play......rub of the green! Prima donna's is right! And, its a 'move' in a lot of cases, like the one Corey made against Justin Hall.
This rule needs to go!

I couldn't agree more! And ... in the instance of Cory asking for the CB to be cleaned, he had to spin that 10 ball in and the dirtier the CB the more friction he would have enjoyed spinning the ball. This was a shot that clearly went from the beginning IMO, and Cory knew there was plenty of room to spin it, clean or not, he simply put a move on Justin IMO.

Cleaning the balls is Bulls@#t.

As far as shooting through frozen balls, I ALWAYS liked Grady's take on this type shot. If the CB shows (what he called) character, then its not a foul, but if the CB beats out the OB then it clearly is a foul.

 

[BRussell]

I see that now. My mistake. But, why even bring up snooker or snooker rules? They have nothing to do with pool rules. Might as well bring up soccer rules where you are required to hit the ball with your foot or your head.

You're right, it's not relevant to whether there was a rule violation in a particular pool game. But I think it is relevant to the different question of whether the rule is right, makes sense, could be changed, etc.

 

[JumpinJoe]

you have been able to shot through a frozen ball in one pocket forever. Rules are rules

I didn't say it was not a rule. Said it was a bullchit rule invented for league.

It don't fly everywhere either.

 

[jmurphy]

The bottom line is that what JJ did was totally unprofessional.
You never forfeit a match the only exceptions are an injury or a family emergency.

 

[CJ Wiley]

sometimes it seems that the "deck is stacked," and there's still always a way to win

spinning a ball is complete BS.
I like Ken but have seen him play favorites with a few different pros.
I dont blame him at all. I would be pissed also.

There's always going to be favoritism, that doesn't make it right, just reality. It's a lot of fun to beat the favorites on their home court though, we all enjoy doing that occasionally. I also understand JJ's frustration - sometimes it seems that the "deck is stacked," and there's still always a way to win.

 

[CreeDo]

The sad part is...

Only a few guys in that room have a realistic chance to beat shane and he threw that chance away
to make some sort of crybaby statement. We could all understand if some random B player folded under the
pressure of a world-class event on the TV table. If such a player forfeits... well, he never had a chance anyway.

JJ though had a very good chance. He was looking at a 1-1 game count and maybe a 4-(1) score.
And he has experience with this sort of pressure.
Does he honestly believe Ken is willing to break the rules or lie to help shane win?
Would he still have unscrewed if shane's kick shot sold out and JJ was looking at 6 open balls?

The whole 'turned ball' thing is just nitty...
"wah, you promised me frozen yogurt and instead I got ice cream!"
What possible advantage does he think shane gets shooting a turned ball instead of a cleaned ball?

 

[CantEverWin]

The sad part is...

The whole 'turned ball' thing is just nitty...
"wah, you promised me frozen yogurt and instead I got ice cream!"
What possible advantage does he think shane gets shooting a turned ball instead of a cleaned ball?

I think jj thought the advantage Shane was trying to receive was the one he asked for. I believe that's the point.

I saw a player ask a ref at another event to hold the light above the table out of the way so he could shoot a shot with the cue jacked up.
This was after he forced a ref to have to rack the balls, (because he claimed his opponent was giving bad racks) and then kept having the ref rerack because the balls were not tight enough.

Sometimes it's just too much.

I heard that later in the tourney Corey showed how "cleaning the balls" can be taken advantage of.

 

[CantEverWin]

I think JJ may have overreacted a bit. Some players get some favoritism. It's not as if he is playing a guy who's had an entire room built around his strengths or anything... Oh wait....

 

[CreeDo]

I think jj thought the advantage Shane was trying to receive was the one he asked for. I believe that's the point.

That's not really answering the question though.
What advantage is there, other than shooting at a clean ball?
Shane still has to make the ball and get shape, so what's the crying about?
The fact that someone has to wait 30 seconds for a ref to walk over?

I saw a player ask a ref at another event to hold the light above the table out of the way so he could shoot a shot with the cue jacked up. This was after he forced a ref to have to rack the balls, (because he claimed his opponent was giving bad racks) and then kept having the ref rerack because the balls were not tight enough. Sometimes it's just too much.

Straight from the rulebook:

WPA Regulations
8. Instructions for Referees
If necessary for the shot, the referee or a deputy may hold the light fixture out of the way.


It's pool, not furniture dodgeball :/
And asking for reracks might be frustrating, but the problem is solved by racking correctly the first time.
Don't you think the ref should just do that automatically without someone having to ask him 2 or 3 times?
He shouldn't walk away until he's double checked for gaps.

I heard that later in the tourney Corey showed how "cleaning the balls" can be taken advantage of.

Shane's situation was nothing like that. The only thing shane could get by asking for a cleaning...
was a clean 3 ball. He saw a black scuff mark and wanted it removed. There was no sneaky trick here.

I think JJ may have overreacted a bit. Some players get some favoritism. It's not as if he is playing a guy who's had an entire room built around his strengths or anything... Oh wait....

Yeah, shane wins because of home field advantage and ref favoritism. Nothing to do with being
the best player on earth. And I guess it was favoritism too when Corey got the ball cleaned?
I heard Jalo Kotinurmi got the ball cleaned, Ken must has made friends with him back in Finland.

If you wanna claim shane is the only reason TAR exists... or that TAR is the only reason he's popular...
I think that's insulting to the hard work JCIN has done organizing events and the hard work shane has done
to make himself the best player (at least in 10b) on earth.

If someone else wants to make the vegas studio their "home room" all they have to do is knock shane off the table.

 

[CantEverWin]

I never said anything about how, or why TAR exsist. I doubt they built the room with the sole purpose to help Shane. They might have asked his opinion, I don't know. However, it does seem that they built a room in which plays to SVB strengths, and helps limit his weakness. It doesn't have to be done on purpose. There's going to be other players who benefit from that setup as well. It's not as if there's some crazy rolls, or trick balls.

Now about the rotating ball thing yesterday. In the hundreds, if not thousands of hours of pool I've watched I have never seen, nor heard of someone asking for an object ball to be cleaned, or rotated during a rack. I've seen in dont sparingly with the cueball which is understandable given that cue balls can hold a lot of chalk from being struck.
However, from what I understand svb didn't ask for it to be cleaned, but turned, or rotated. Which is not to say its dirty, just that he wants it moved. I don't know svb's exact reason for this move however it obviously is one. If the "scuff" is a problem at the contact point then it would be too bad to roll on. It would make more sense if the ball were damaged to ask for it to be replaced.
Maybe Shane wanted the ball turned for a better point of reference for aiming. I have no idea. Just seems like a weird request especially given that I haven't heard anyone else coming with stories about request to rotate object balls either. In fact the only stories are guys pulling moves.
Maybe SVB will ask for a table to be lowered to help him reach a shot next. Svb might be currently "the best player in the world." If he is, he's certainly the weakest, nittest world beater I've ever seen.

 

[Ghosst]

...Svb might be currently "the best player in the world." If he is, he's certainly the weakest, nittest world beater I've ever seen.

Subscribing...

 

[shinobi]

LOL tough crowd. Guy asks for a ball to cleaned or rotated, and suddenly that's a big advantage?

I have a feeling Shane can pot a ball without needing to rotate it for aiming purposes...

 

[Ktown D]

I think the "ball cleaning" or "rotating" in the middle of a game is some "p*ssy *ss sh!t".

JMO........enough with the quotations.......carry on.


PS - I don't think it is anyone's business how JJ came to have a little money, I happen to know and I don't begrudge him one bit. That is life and anyone that has something to say is insensitive and jealous.

 

[Euclid]

I never said anything about how, or why TAR exsist. I doubt they built the room with the sole purpose to help Shane. They might have asked his opinion, I don't know. However, it does seem that they built a room in which plays to SVB strengths, and helps limit his weakness. It doesn't have to be done on purpose. There's going to be other players who benefit from that setup as well. It's not as if there's some crazy rolls, or trick balls.

Now about the rotating ball thing yesterday. In the hundreds, if not thousands of hours of pool I've watched I have never seen, nor heard of someone asking for an object ball to be cleaned, or rotated during a rack. I've seen in dont sparingly with the cueball which is understandable given that cue balls can hold a lot of chalk from being struck.
However, from what I understand svb didn't ask for it to be cleaned, but turned, or rotated. Which is not to say its dirty, just that he wants it moved. I don't know svb's exact reason for this move however it obviously is one. If the "scuff" is a problem at the contact point then it would be too bad to roll on. It would make more sense if the ball were damaged to ask for it to be replaced.
Maybe Shane wanted the ball turned for a better point of reference for aiming. I have no idea. Just seems like a weird request especially given that I haven't heard anyone else coming with stories about request to rotate object balls either. In fact the only stories are guys pulling moves.
Maybe SVB will ask for a table to be lowered to help him reach a shot next. Svb might be currently "the best player in the world." If he is, he's certainly the weakest, nittest world beater I've ever seen.

You have to be kidding me. Seriously, did you just write that?