WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

,there's many negative things that can happen by using an extended follow through

JohnnyP said:
CJ

I have noticed many good players have the wrist cocked forward while addressing the cueball, as seen in your photo.

If you don't uncock it on the back swing, your wrist will have already "followed through" at contact, so you never have to break the wrist.
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Yes, that way we can release the tip and keep it perfectly straight by allowing the wrist to unlock down slightly, some of us do it more pronounced than others. It's the same motion as hammering a nail, the more you pre cock the wrist up, the more available power you have going down.

When I have a shot that requires a LOT of power I simply pre cock the cue more so it unlocks slightly creating more acceleration where I need it.....AT the cue ball.

It's easiest to learn {to do this} by intentionally NOT following through as far as you bring the cue back,,,,there's many negative things that can happen by using an extended follow through and I DO NOT recommend it unless intentionally transferring english to the object ball (to get exaggerated cue ball movement).


images
 
ED from Calif. made palyers do wrist exercises

Do them for 1 month report back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mark
 
Eureka, I finished reading this post! Below is a short review of what I can remember.

First thing that comes to mind is the patience CJ has. Enduring that wave of harassment, very impressive.
Not many people can survive the wave of forum police we have here. I don’t know why some of us feel the need to badger and wordsmith. This isn’t a writing contest, its about pool. (God forbid anybody discusses anything that has been discussed before, or doesn’t describe a technique perfectly.) Personally, I say question everything..... but carry a soft stick.

Next thing that comes to mind is Rick and his 4000 posts in under a year(not to mention the 47 years of experience). Rick my man, you’re killing me. Nobody is gonna take you seriously when you post CONSTANTLY. Clearly, even CJ was annoyed(even though in your own way, you tried to support him). I think you have good intentions, but you managed to single handedly kill his post.

Getting to the issues at hand, there were many. Wrist cocking, tighter grip on longer shots, excessive spin, excessive practice strokes, using “the top” of your tip and “pinning” the ball(downward vs. level angle to cb), aiming with the center or edges of an object ball, aiming/aligning from above the cue ball, cueing low for follow, inside vs. outside spin, and TOI.

I probably missed some other stuff too, wading through the muck. Each of these areas could easily be worthy of their own posts. For those who have the time, certainly worth experimenting with. I could comment further on some of these facets. Some of them I do use, but maybe should use more. I do plan on messing around with more wrist action. I've tried before, but seemed to lose too much cue ball control.

But enough about me, I think its better to hear from people actively working with these methods, like Mikjary. It’s encouraging to know this approach has helped players like Mike. Also nice to see a pro put so many hours into a forum, and present his own advanced techniques and style. Whether new or not, there's lots of good info here that can help others.
 
CJ Wiley said:
The Game's secrets are "all in the hands"
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This reminds me of something I've been playing around with a bit. I've been playing for over 10 years and have always had a loose grip. The prevailing wisdom on the matter says that's a good thing, but I think that there are times where my grip is too loose. So loose, in fact, that the cue is resting on my fingertips and my thumb isn't touching anything. Most of the time, this doesn't cause any problems, but in cases where I need to power a shot or just get nervous in a clutch situation, I curl my fingers in during my stroke and miss an easy shot because of it.

Just recently, I've been trying to make a point of gripping the cue with the tip of my thumb and index finger touching and it seems to give me much more consistent results. To be clear, I'm still not really gripping the cue so much as I am cradling it, but I am preventing my fingers from curling in during my stroke by having my thumb in the way.

Hopefully this serves as a bit of a warning to those out there that have had the "loose grip" mantra drilled into their heads. There is such a thing as too loose, and it's when you get to the point where you're relying on your fingers to remain frozen without anything pushing back against them. If that describes your grip, try touching your thumb to your index finger and see if your consistency goes up.
 
"Loose Grips" have messed up more games than "Loose Women".

Matt said:
This reminds me of something I've been playing around with a bit. I've been playing for over 10 years and have always had a loose grip. The prevailing wisdom on the matter says that's a good thing, but I think that there are times where my grip is too loose. So loose, in fact, that the cue is resting on my fingertips and my thumb isn't touching anything. Most of the time, this doesn't cause any problems, but in cases where I need to power a shot or just get nervous in a clutch situation, I curl my fingers in during my stroke and miss an easy shot because of it.

Just recently, I've been trying to make a point of gripping the cue with the tip of my thumb and index finger touching and it seems to give me much more consistent results. To be clear, I'm still not really gripping the cue so much as I am cradling it, but I am preventing my fingers from curling in during my stroke by having my thumb in the way.

Hopefully this serves as a bit of a warning to those out there that have had the "loose grip" mantra drilled into their heads. There is such a thing as too loose, and it's when you get to the point where you're relying on your fingers to remain frozen without anything pushing back against them. If that describes your grip, try touching your thumb to your index finger and see if your consistency goes up.
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The grip's purpose if to control the cue...to maximize touch and feel, especially the top portion of the cue because you hit most shots with the top of the tip.

While touching the index finger and thumb may work for some players it still doesn't put the pressure where it's most effective....."different strokes for different folks"....I advise experimenting with your grip and find what works best to maximize feel and wrist/finger/hand power.

"Loose Grips" have messed up more games than "Loose Women".....or Men ;)
 
CJ Wiley said:
The grip's purpose if to control the cue...to maximize touch and feel, especially the top portion of the cue because you hit most shots with the top of the tip.

While touching the index finger and thumb may work for some players it still doesn't put the pressure where it's most effective....."different strokes for different folks"....I advise experimenting with your grip and find what works best to maximize feel and wrist/finger/hand power.

"Loose Grips" have messed up more games than "Loose Women".....or Men ;)
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Thanks for the reply, CJ. It's good to hear that from a high caliber player, and I'm sure there are many more that would agree with you.

I believe that the loose grip is often taught in an effort to combat steering of the cue, so there is some merit to it, especially for a beginner. I think the point where it becomes a detriment is when it results in a grip that allows for too much variation during the stroke by relying on only a couple of muscles freezing in position without some consistent counterforce.

There are several ways to achieve this consistency; touching my thumb to my finger seems to at least be a good start for me and not so different as to feel awkward. I have tried going even tighter so that the cue presses into the webbing between my thumb and forefinger, but haven't noticed much of a difference with doing that other than it feeling a bit strange. Do you think that it would help in the long run if I got used to that?

I'll keep playing around with different grips as you suggested. Ultimately, I'm sure I will use a few different grips depending on the situation, but the one where the cue is just hanging on my fingertips with no help from my thumb won't be part of that repertoire any more. It's cost me too many easy outs already.
 
most players I've seen tend to follow through too much.

Matt said:
Thanks for the reply, CJ. It's good to hear that from a high caliber player, and I'm sure there are many more that would agree with you.

I believe that the loose grip is often taught in an effort to combat steering of the cue, so there is some merit to it, especially for a beginner. I think the point where it becomes a detriment is when it results in a grip that allows for too much variation during the stroke by relying on only a couple of muscles freezing in position without some consistent counterforce.

There are several ways to achieve this consistency; touching my thumb to my finger seems to at least be a good start for me and not so different as to feel awkward. I have tried going even tighter so that the cue presses into the webbing between my thumb and forefinger, but haven't noticed much of a difference with doing that other than it feeling a bit strange. Do you think that it would help in the long run if I got used to that?

I'll keep playing around with different grips as you suggested. Ultimately, I'm sure I will use a few different grips depending on the situation, but the one where the cue is just hanging on my fingertips with no help from my thumb won't be part of that repertoire any more. It's cost me too many easy outs already.
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I like using the "V" between my thumb and forefinger as a reference and make sure to bring the cue back and return it to EXACTLY where the "V" started.

In an ideal stroke the hand starts in a position "measuring up" to the cue ball, then simply is drawn back in the backstroke and accelerated back to where it started....with no attempt to follow through at all, as a matter of fact most players I've seen tend to follow through too much.

It seems to be commonly taught that a long follow through is needed, when it is actually a detrimental quality. It amplifies tip target "misses, and encourages de acceleration, resulting in unnecessary spin and deflection. imo
 
The hammer stroke finish forces the cue down and straight, and not to the side, but in line with the intended aim line...negating the tendency to impart sideways motions...I find It, to me, augments the pendulum stroke without having to drop the elbow to glide the cue straight to the CB.

The elbow drop to achieve the same effect is slight and is achieved with the wrist dropping with a/the hammer stroke.

The hammer stroke is also effective in imparting top/follow English by dropping the wrist/butt that allows the tip of the cue to rise and not drop at impact.

It's all good if it works for you.
:)
 
"Pinning" the Shots with the Center of the Top of the Tip

LAMas said:
The hammer stroke finish forces the cue down and straight, and not to the side, but in line with the intended aim line...negating the tendency to impart sideways motions...I find It, to me, augments the pendulum stroke without having to drop the elbow to glide the cue straight to the CB.

The elbow drop to achieve the same effect is slight and is achieved with the wrist dropping with a/the hammer stroke.

The hammer stroke is also effective in imparting top/follow English by dropping the wrist/butt that allows the tip of the cue to rise and not drop at impact.

It's all good if it works for you.
:)
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However we choose to handle the cue we must "real eyes" that the key to a great touch and feel is in the hands/wrists/fingers. This component must connect to the TIP of your cue and specifically to the TOP of your Tip.....using the center of the top of your tip to "aim" at the cue ball with is essential to consistently creating solid contact and maximizing cue ball movement.....and sometimes that movement is minimal when stunning a shot.

When we really start "Pinning" the Shots with the Center of the Top of the Tip it makes a different sound.....we call this "Pinning the Shots," and it's noticeable when a high level player is doing it.
 
CJ Wiley said:
When we really start "Pinning" the Shots with the Center of the Top of the Tip it makes a different sound.....we call this "Pinning the Shots," and it's noticeable when a high level player is doing it.
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I've never heard it called that before, but think I know what you mean. When someone is shooting well, you can hear it. It's like the opposite of a miscue. Do you know why it sounds different? I assume it has something to do with the cue's movement being in line with the cue when it contacts the ball. The feel of hitting a ball this way is a lot like hitting the sweet spot on a golf club or baseball bat, so it would make some sense if it's a similar phenomenon.
 
Matt said:
I've never heard it called that before, but think I know what you mean. When someone is shooting well, you can hear it. It's like the opposite of a miscue. Do you know why it sounds different? I assume it has something to do with the cue's movement being in line with the cue when it contacts the ball. The feel of hitting a ball this way is a lot like hitting the sweet spot on a golf club or baseball bat, so it would make some sense if it's a similar phenomenon.
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It's a "plink" sound that's a little sharper than the normal "thunk" you get with the center of the tip. It's most noticeable in SVB's stroke, turn up the sound on YouTube, you can clearly hear it because of his hard tips.
 
West Point 1987 said:
It's a "plink" sound that's a little sharper than the normal "thunk" you get with the center of the tip. It's most noticeable in SVB's stroke, turn up the sound on YouTube, you can clearly hear it because of his hard tips.
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Would that mean that you can't get that sound unless you are hitting center ball, or very close to it?
 
No, it has to do with hitting with a thinner part of the tip instead of the fat middle. For example, you can hit the center of the CB with the center of the tip...or the top edge of the tip (pinning). It's harder to pin the CB using follow, but still possible. It's noticeable by the way the cue doesn't pop up after contact.
 
West Point 1987 said:
No, it has to do with hitting with a thinner part of the tip instead of the fat middle. For example, you can hit the center of the CB with the center of the tip...or the top edge of the tip (pinning). It's harder to pin the CB using follow, but still possible. It's noticeable by the way the cue doesn't pop up after contact.
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Thanks for the clarification. Now I get what you're saying. I had misread your first reply to mean that you get the "plink" when you hit center, and what you meant is that center gives you the "thunk".
 
I'd use the technique Buddy showed me, it is very effective.

Matt said:
I've never heard it called that before, but think I know what you mean. When someone is shooting well, you can hear it. It's like the opposite of a miscue. Do you know why it sounds different? I assume it has something to do with the cue's movement being in line with the cue when it contacts the ball. The feel of hitting a ball this way is a lot like hitting the sweet spot on a golf club or baseball bat, so it would make some sense if it's a similar phenomenon.
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Yes, it is a form of "sweet spot" because it's a very small part of the tip that gets harder if you're contacting it ever time.

Buddy Hall was the first one to show me how he was able to hit the same edge of the tip every time. I'm not as particular as Buddy, and I also never tried to play perfect position - if I did I'd use the technique Buddy showed me, it is very effective.

Right now I just use certain techniques when gambling very seriously....you'd think I'd use them in tournaments, but I actually don't, of course "tournament conditions" are much easier with new cloth and softer pockets.
 
West Point 1987 said:
No, it has to do with hitting with a thinner part of the tip instead of the fat middle. For example, you can hit the center of the CB with the center of the tip...or the top edge of the tip (pinning). It's harder to pin the CB using follow, but still possible. It's noticeable by the way the cue doesn't pop up after contact.
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Efren pulls this off beautifully when he strokes for follow. His tip comes up quickly and back down through the cue ball. Shane can pull it off, too pretty well. I think the Pinoys patented it. :wink: When I'm playing my best, I'm pinning (I call it diggin' in) the cue ball on feather or stroke shots.

Best,
Mike
 
pool is the "Master Game" (without the conspiracy element)

Mikjary said:
Efren pulls this off beautifully when he strokes for follow. His tip comes up quickly and back down through the cue ball. Shane can pull it off, too pretty well. I think the Pinoys patented it. :wink: When I'm playing my best, I'm pinning (I call it diggin' in) the cue ball on feather or stroke shots.

Best,
Mike
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Yes, the "Pinning Technique" is definitely the most advanced level of playing pool. I remember when I used to travel with "JR Weldon" he used to get a sparkle in his eye when I really started "Pinning" the cue ball.

The Technique is similar to the true martial arts strike when someone will hold the fist 30 Degrees down and 15 Degrees in and hit with ONLY the first two knuckles.....this creates the same "Pinning" effect and can create severe breaks. The whole idea revolves around "Piercing" the cue ball with the "knife edge" of the TIP.

The Technique is also used in tennis to create severe topspin and the same type principal is used in golf to hit a "knock down screamer" like Tiger used to hit occasionally.

Pool's just a miniature version of a lot of other games and many of the same techniques apply. That's why pool is the "Master Game" 'The Game is the Teacher' ;)
 
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