Rodney announces Bonus Ball's return on FB

The production of pool currently on TV sucks, which makes sense if we are footing the bill; the time slot is no better; and the promotion pales in comparison to honey boo boo. I have little doubt that bonusball or pool could outperform Honey boo boo if done right. That is my opinion.

Just curious-How old are you and how long you've been around pool?
 
The WPBL web site says the next match is tonight. Pittsburgh vs Huston 9/06/2013

http://wpbltv.com/

ooohh! it just started! i see it....

wait a minute....

Lee just stepped-in

he's jumped up onto the table

he's cussing someone out
who is it?
wait for it....

wait for it....

it's Mikaela!!!!

OMG - she just *****-slapped --- -----
i can't see it
Nathan's cameras are are being kicked sideways & $800K destroyed!

all Hell has broken loose @ Bonus Ball

........ (this is for Hungarian)

and

"cut. wrap it up. that's a take!"
 
If all moneys due the players are paid and Bonus Ball lasts a full season, that would be wonderful, but unless something has been done to fix the business model, it's tough to be imagine a second season.

No idea what to expect at this point, but hoping for the best and wishing all concerned better times ahead.

That said, if the Bonus Ball playoffs conflict with the Derby City Classic schedule in January, I'll be very upset.
 
"For the Game {of Pool} to succeed $$$ must be a result, not an incentive" CJ Wiley

CJ,

Are you saying the networks don't pay the sports organizations for exclusive rights? They don't compete and pay big$'s for sports programming so that they can make their $'s from subscription rates and advertising?

I know the major sports organizations are charging the networks premium prices for the exclusive rights to air their events. Nfl charges billions and the next nba deal is expected to be billions also.baseball hockey even soccer all charge mega $'s. From what I understand even the poker programs are bringing in the $'s. beach volleyball, darts they are all paid to be on TV and between the TV money and corporate sponsors, that is why a professional dart player makes more than a professional pool player.

I read an article the other day about how little league baseball players who make it to ESPN should be getting paid to play on TV. The author gave out exact figures for what the "non profit" organization brings in and the numbers from the TV deal with ESPN and the corporate sponsors would allow the organization to pay for a college scholorship or trust fund for every player on every team who made it on ESPN and the league still would not spend one tenth of the revenue generated from the post season series. ESPN alone paid millions to be able to exusivy air a certain number of games.

To me it seems like if bonusball had a sufficient leader managing the organization then a TV deal could be made that would more than generate enough revenue to sustain the operational costs and make plenty of profit. This does not even include the sponsorship $'s. if they were able to get bonusball on the board in Vegas then forget about it, the TV deal would be worth megabucks. The game is structured perfectly for that also.

Am I wrong in my thinking? I think you have experience in this field right? Please explain your thinking so that I understand better.

Thanks.

Those major sports have been built up over many, many years and it's complicated how their business deals evolve. If the TV owns the rights then they get the commercial inventory and if you (the promoter) pay for the air time (and production costs) you would get the commercial inventory - these are the basics, and it gets vastly complicated how these type contracts are structured.

At this moment in time to put on a pool show you would pay for the air time and production costs or do a barter deal like I have done in the past. For a one hour show the promoter would get 16 commercials and also the right to do "event presence" deals and packages for Title Sponsors, Presenting Sponsors, Equipment Sponsors, etc.

The way the major sports are televised are different now because they have a real, calculated value based on their TV Ratings. This means that the TV will get involved in other ways, but at the end of the day they're still just getting paid for the service they provide....all the rest is just the complexities of deals that allow them to do more to get higher profits.

This evolved over time and doesn't make much different in relating to pool because we have to start out paying for air time or doing barter deals before we would have any chance to structure something more appealing. This is just how it is, so what I did was simply put it on TV, organize the barter deal and get my commercials to create Sponsorship Packages. This is what we all did in one way, shape or form back in the 90s and kept the game on TV.

The only draw back was we couldn't make money directly from the TV, so we have to be creative to make money off the merchandising, and sponsorship packages.....this was usually a break even type deal. There reason people like myself will do this is we don't care if the TV makes money or not, we're happy breaking even because we use the exposure to drive other type profit centers.

The billiard industry should be doing this because they have huge profit centers they could drive, but instead just wait....and wait.....and wait.....and do streaming video which is a terrible substitute for TV because the ONLY people that watch it are "hard core" pool fans....that really don't buy much so sponsors aren't enticed to spend money on sponsorship......and I can see why.

As a result the game's industry has become stagnant because so few new participants are entering and the places that supply the entertainment aspect of billiards are closing because the game's not being promoted....it's a vicious, negative circle with no hope for improvement UNLESS someone's willing to do the work necessary to get the game back on TV WITHOUT making direct money.

We are willing to do this, however, it takes some time to put together the ways to make the "indirect" revenue off the TV. My priority in the next few months is to open an upscale Billiard Club so that we have a place for the TV matches and can drive the business there and grow the business accordingly.

It would speed things up to have some cooperation from the industry, however, from my past experience this is like "pulling teeth" and I'm not sure if anyone even wants to get involved, it seems easier to make excuses why it can't be done....which is nothing but propaganda, it's relatively easy to make a TV Deal as long as the show can accumulate a viewing audience and create an entertainment value.....and of course it can, but only time will tell how the specific details (what, where, how, when) will unfold.

I'm looking forward to seeing it happen, for many reasons. The result may be compensation, however the incentive isn't (financially motivating).... it MUST be this way to succeed at this juncture. "For the Game {of Pool} to succeed the monetary reward must be a result, not an incentive" CJ Wiley - 'The Game is the Teacher'



aim-high-funny-motivational-poster.jpg
 
Last edited:
Those major sports have been built up over many, many years and it's complicated how their business deals evolve. If the TV owns the rights then they get the commercial inventory and if you (the promoter) pay for the air time (and production costs) you would get the commercial inventory - these are the basics, and it gets vastly complicated how these type contracts are structured.

At this moment in time to put on a pool show you would pay for the air time and production costs or do a barter deal like I have done in the past. For a one hour show the promoter would get 16 commercials and also the right to do "event presence" deals and packages for Title Sponsors, Presenting Sponsors, Equipment Sponsors, etc.

The way the major sports are televised are different now because they have a real, calculated value based on their TV Ratings. This means that the TV will get involved in other ways, but at the end of the day they're still just getting paid for the service they provide....all the rest is just the complexities of deals that allow them to do more to get higher profits.

This evolved over time and doesn't make much different in relating to pool because we have to start out paying for air time or doing barter deals before we would have any chance to structure something more appealing. This is just how it is, so what I did was simply put it on TV, organize the barter deal and get my commercials to create Sponsorship Packages. This is what we all did in one way, shape or form back in the 90s and kept the game on TV.

The only draw back was we couldn't make money directly from the TV, so we have to be creative to make money off the merchandising, and sponsorship packages.....this was usually a break even type deal. There reason people like myself will do this is we don't care if the TV makes money or not, we're happy breaking even because we use the exposure to drive other type profit centers.

The billiard industry should be doing this because they have huge profit centers they could drive, but instead just wait....and wait.....and wait.....and do streaming video which is a terrible substitute for TV because the ONLY people that watch it are "hard core" pool fans....that really don't buy much so sponsors aren't enticed to spend money on sponsorship......and I can see why.

As a result the game's industry has become stagnant because so few new participants are entering and the places that supply the entertainment aspect of billiards are closing because the game's not being promoted....it's a vicious, negative circle with no hope for improvement UNLESS someone's willing to do the work necessary to get the game back on TV WITHOUT making direct money.

We are willing to do this, however, it takes some time to put together the ways to make the "indirect" revenue off the TV. My priority in the next few months is to open an upscale Billiard Club so that we have a place for the TV matches and can drive the business there and grow the business accordingly.

It would speed things up to have some cooperation from the industry, however, from my past experience this is like "pulling teeth" and I'm not sure if anyone even wants to get involved, it seems easier to make excuses why it can't be done....which is nothing but propaganda, it's relatively easy to make a TV Deal as long as the show can accumulate a viewing audience and create an entertainment value.....and of course it can, but only time will tell how the specific details (what, where, how, when) will unfold.

I'm looking forward to seeing it happen, for many reasons. The result may be compensation, however the incentive isn't (financially motivating).... it MUST be this way to succeed at this juncture. "For the Game {of Pool} to succeed the monetary reward must be a result, not an incentive" CJ Wiley - 'The Game is the Teacher'



aim-high-funny-motivational-poster.jpg


Good luck and thanks for the response.
 
Last edited:
Those major sports have been built up over many, many years and it's complicated how their business deals evolve. If the TV owns the rights then they get the commercial inventory and if you (the promoter) pay for the air time (and production costs) you would get the commercial inventory - these are the basics, and it gets vastly complicated how these type contracts are structured.

At this moment in time to put on a pool show you would pay for the air time and production costs or do a barter deal like I have done in the past. For a one hour show the promoter would get 16 commercials and also the right to do "event presence" deals and packages for Title Sponsors, Presenting Sponsors, Equipment Sponsors, etc.

The way the major sports are televised are different now because they have a real, calculated value based on their TV Ratings. This means that the TV will get involved in other ways, but at the end of the day they're still just getting paid for the service they provide....all the rest is just the complexities of deals that allow them to do more to get higher profits.

This evolved over time and doesn't make much different in relating to pool because we have to start out paying for air time or doing barter deals before we would have any chance to structure something more appealing. This is just how it is, so what I did was simply put it on TV, organize the barter deal and get my commercials to create Sponsorship Packages. This is what we all did in one way, shape or form back in the 90s and kept the game on TV.

The only draw back was we couldn't make money directly from the TV, so we have to be creative to make money off the merchandising, and sponsorship packages.....this was usually a break even type deal. There reason people like myself will do this is we don't care if the TV makes money or not, we're happy breaking even because we use the exposure to drive other type profit centers.

The billiard industry should be doing this because they have huge profit centers they could drive, but instead just wait....and wait.....and wait.....and do streaming video which is a terrible substitute for TV because the ONLY people that watch it are "hard core" pool fans....that really don't buy much so sponsors aren't enticed to spend money on sponsorship......and I can see why.

As a result the game's industry has become stagnant because so few new participants are entering and the places that supply the entertainment aspect of billiards are closing because the game's not being promoted....it's a vicious, negative circle with no hope for improvement UNLESS someone's willing to do the work necessary to get the game back on TV WITHOUT making direct money.

We are willing to do this, however, it takes some time to put together the ways to make the "indirect" revenue off the TV. My priority in the next few months is to open an upscale Billiard Club so that we have a place for the TV matches and can drive the business there and grow the business accordingly.

It would speed things up to have some cooperation from the industry, however, from my past experience this is like "pulling teeth" and I'm not sure if anyone even wants to get involved, it seems easier to make excuses why it can't be done....which is nothing but propaganda, it's relatively easy to make a TV Deal as long as the show can accumulate a viewing audience and create an entertainment value.....and of course it can, but only time will tell how the specific details (what, where, how, when) will unfold.

I'm looking forward to seeing it happen, for many reasons. The result may be compensation, however the incentive isn't (financially motivating).... it MUST be this way to succeed at this juncture. "For the Game {of Pool} to succeed the monetary reward must be a result, not an incentive" CJ Wiley - 'The Game is the Teacher'



aim-high-funny-motivational-poster.jpg

Yes CJ until someone who care enough and has enough cash pool won't get a shot at live TV.

Golf had that somebody and if not for him putting up that cash and also the turny money that payed more than the whole PGA tour turnys combined
It might very well be where pool is


Here's the story ,,

It was the Tam O'Shanter World Championship, played just outside Chicago and televised by ABC. But get this - the owner of the club paid ABC to televise the tournament!

The owner of Tam O'Shanter Country Club was a fellow named George S. May. May must have been quite a golf lover, and quite willing to part with his money. Because, while he started hosting pro tournaments in the 1940s, by 1953 he was putting on four tournaments simultaneously (men's, women's and amateur events).

In 1953 his purse included a winner's share of $25,000, which by itself exceeded the total purse of every other event on the PGA Tour.

The hullabaloo over the (for the time) outrageous money involved - and the fact that May was also willing to pay ABC - prompted the network to dive in with the first national golf broadcast.

And the tournament wound up producing one of the great shots in golf history.

Lew Worsham (told you to remember that name) was trailing the leader in the clubhouse, Chandler Harper, by one stroke as he teed off No. 18 in the final round.

His drive left Worsham 115 yards to the green. He hit a wedge onto the putting surface and watched it roll 45 feet right into the hole - an eagle, and a one-shot victory.

In many respects, that shot - in the first nationally televised golf tournament - helped launch golf into the American mainstream.

Wow the potential fans and ur a winner

The Fans are the teacher

1
 
Last edited:
Some people are just naive,some are just ignorant,some are just desperate.Some are all 3.We hope they get help soon.
 
Look how popular 'The Sopranos" and 'Breaking Bad' are to the general public.

Yes CJ until someone who care enough and has enough cash pool won't get a shot at live TV.

Golf had that somebody and if not for him putting up that cash and also the turny money that payed more than the whole PGA tour turnys combined
It might very well be where pool is


Here's the story ,,

It was the Tam O'Shanter World Championship, played just outside Chicago and televised by ABC. But get this - the owner of the club paid ABC to televise the tournament!

The owner of Tam O'Shanter Country Club was a fellow named George S. May. May must have been quite a golf lover, and quite willing to part with his money. Because, while he started hosting pro tournaments in the 1940s, by 1953 he was putting on four tournaments simultaneously (men's, women's and amateur events).

In 1953 his purse included a winner's share of $25,000, which by itself exceeded the total purse of every other event on the PGA Tour.

The hullabaloo over the (for the time) outrageous money involved - and the fact that May was also willing to pay ABC - prompted the network to dive in with the first national golf broadcast.

And the tournament wound up producing one of the great shots in golf history.

Lew Worsham (told you to remember that name) was trailing the leader in the clubhouse, Chandler Harper, by one stroke as he teed off No. 18 in the final round.

His drive left Worsham 115 yards to the green. He hit a wedge onto the putting surface and watched it roll 45 feet right into the hole - an eagle, and a one-shot victory.

In many respects, that shot - in the first nationally televised golf tournament - helped launch golf into the American mainstream.

That's a GREAT STORY! This is the reason it's essential to get the game on TV, even it it's just regionally, because these type scenarios happen IF it's in the public eye.

One of the biggest misconceptions is that we have to get the pool shows on national TV Broadcasts which does take a LOT of money. It's better (in my opinion) to target regional areas and make sure it's broadcast to the general public. If 8 different people decided to do this in 8 different markets we'd suddenly have a "new beginning".

What the mainstream TV viewers find entertaining is the stories about pool players gambling and hustling pasts. This is well documented and from our research it is the ONLY thing that will get them interested in pool again. Just setting two or three cameras up to see two people play pool is not exciting....mix in commentators trying to guess each shot and talk about why pool isn't popular these days...it's not the game's fault that mobsters and meth dealers have better directors, script writers, and production managers...:shrug::thud:

'The Hustler', 'The Color of Money' and the recent popularity of poker has verified how much the average viewer likes gambling/hustling scenarios. It's always been the "underbelly" of the game that is the most interesting, I know this is true from the hundreds of questions I've answered and the national magazine stories through the years.

Pool is the "Master Game" and has a intriguing history that people are genuinely interested in, and if we give them what they want it will catch on again. Look how popular 'The Sopranos" and 'Breaking Bad' are to the general public......pool has all these elements just waiting to be released......it's just a matter of time...tick tock :groucho:
 
All this talk about TV !!!

In reality pocket billiards was 10 times better when there was not any TV.

Think about that !

Or read Ned Polsky's book, "Hustlers,Beats, and Others"
 
Maybe we should look for a way to combine Pocket Billiards, Kids and Golf..

All this talk about TV !!!

In reality pocket billiards was 10 times better when there was not any TV.

Think about that !

Or read Ned Polsky's book, "Hustlers,Beats, and Others"

TV is just a way to broadcast to millions of people and makes things "Larger than Life".....ESPN had over 60 million viewers when I was producing shows and we consistengly had a "1" Rating which meant over ONE MILLION Households were watching.....imagine the impact that made over a month....a year....ten years.

It's now been over 13 years since the ESPN World Championships and the industry is down over 40%......is there a connection between not getting out to 60 Million potential viewers and the decline of pocket billiards participation and sales ?

Maybe we should look for a way to combine Pocket Billiards, Kids and Golf......hmmm

OicmKDknNiM=-1288966391@Putt-Putt-Golf-New-Braunfels-.jpg
[/IMG]
 
TV is just a way to broadcast to millions of people and makes things "Larger than Life".....ESPN had over 60 million viewers when I was producing shows and we consistengly had a "1" Rating which meant over ONE MILLION Households were watching.....imagine the impact that made over a month....a year....ten years.

It's now been over 13 years since the ESPN World Championships and the industry is down over 40%......is there a connection between not getting out to 60 Million potential viewers and the decline of pocket billiards participation and sales ?

Maybe we should look for a way to combine Pocket Billiards, Kids and Golf......hmmm

OicmKDknNiM=-1288966391@Putt-Putt-Golf-New-Braunfels-.jpg
[/IMG]

I always like ur spin. ,, the fact that pool industry is down 40% has nothing to do with no world championship on TV
I would certainly question whether or not a true world championship was ever on ESPN. that was a made for ESPN broadcast
Also there has been pool on TV thousands of time since then ,and certainly leagues had grown dramatically after that and they certainly don't have a 40pct drop off any any drop if they have can be attributed to the economy not the lack of pool on TV

1
 
We gotta stop w the economy excuses about now-Things have been getting better for 2 years now and some places are ahead of where they were pre recession. Florida and Michigan are big laggards but the TEXAS' economy for example is doing better than ever in history and not by a little-by a lot! NYC now has more jobs than ever in its history-given 9/11 that's pretty astounding.
 
Last edited:
Pool is boring for the average viewer. There are 100's of things to watch on TV now. Not many had home video games 20 years ago. Like most that have been on AZ awhile and are players I could go on and on and on why pro pool is on its last legs. The leagues are doing pretty good because they treat it as a game. I don't like it that pro pool is about done, but it is what it is. There are just so many reasons why it's failing starting with no org, players shooting themselves in the foot, and all the in fighting between different groups. Johnnyt
 
We gotta stop w the economy excuses about now-Things have been getting better for 2 years now and some places are ahead of where they were pre recession. Florida and Michigan are big laggards but the TEXAS' economy for example is doing better than ever in history and not by a little-by a lot! NYC now has more jobs than ever in its history-given 9/11 that's pretty astounding.

Yes I agree pool turnys have been piping up a lot the last yr or so but I'm told that's not the case everywhere. in fact pool has a good rise when the economy was booming many pool rooms expanded or moved to a bigger venue trying to take advantage of that
Then when the crash happened many went under


1
 
Yes I agree pool turnys have been piping up a lot the last yr or so but I'm told that's not the case everywhere. in fact pool has a good rise when the economy was booming many pool rooms expanded or moved to a bigger venue trying to take advantage of that
Then when the crash happened many went under


1

Yeah my point is pretty much the economy is good enough for Macy's, DeBeers and Walmart right now. If pool rooms cant survive at this point stop blaming the economy-that aint it imo. The biggest factor is the 'electronic revolution' i'll call it.
 
Bogus Ball

Pretty sure the bonus ball players have moved on to paying events, ie: pool tournaments and perhaps 1 or 2 actually took a regular job? Well maybe 1.???:slap::slap::slap::slap::dance::dance:

wake up, it is in the past.
 
we had SEVERAL THOUSAND International Hours on ESPN

We gotta stop w the economy excuses about now-Things have been getting better for 2 years now and some places are ahead of where they were pre recession. Florida and Michigan are big laggards but the TEXAS' economy for example is doing better than ever in history and not by a little-by a lot! NYC now has more jobs than ever in its history-given 9/11 that's pretty astounding.

You're EXACTLY RIGHT, the economy has very little to do with the decline in pool. When ESPN was doing their tournaments we had pool on sever times a week all year long. Out of every tournament they televised EVERY MATCH, that's 30 matches in the singes and the year I won the World Open we also had Mixed Doubles, AND The Battle of the Sexes.

All together I received over 600 International Hours on ESPN in 1996-1999...and that was just my matches, of course there were many, many more. I had that type of exposure because I was in the finals three years in a row and Loree Jon and I won the World Mixed Doubles Championships and I also won the ESPN Battle of the Sexes.

This means we had SEVERAL THOUSAND International Hours on ESPN and someone thinks that didn't make a difference??? That kind of exposure would cost 10 Million Dollars if you tried to purchase the air time and produce the events yourself.

There was also the "Challenge of Champions" and several other Pro Events on ESPN produced by private promoters and the BCA also had one or two a year for Men and 6-8 Events with the Ladies.

This added up to a LOT of exposure for pool on a weekly basis....now there's none to speak of, just randomly through the year. I don't think anyone realized the magnitude of what I'm saying.....pool went from Millions of Dollars in exposure to almost nothing......and this doesn't make a difference??? A child of 5 could see that it does. :groucho:

Anyone that knows about TV advertising will tell you that the frequency is the key, not random commercials or shows.

We had a great thing going and it will be done again, it's just a matter of time. I would be willing to bet Pocket Billiards is on TV by this time next year on either ESPN, Another Major Station, or FOX SPORTS.
 
You're EXACTLY RIGHT, the economy has very little to do with the decline in pool. When ESPN was doing their tournaments we had pool on sever times a week all year long. Out of every tournament they televised EVERY MATCH, that's 30 matches in the singes and the year I won the World Open we also had Mixed Doubles, AND The Battle of the Sexes.

All together I received over 600 International Hours on ESPN in 1996-1999...and that was just my matches, of course there were many, many more. I had that type of exposure because I was in the finals three years in a row and Loree Jon and I won the World Mixed Doubles Championships and I also won the ESPN Battle of the Sexes.

This means we had SEVERAL THOUSAND International Hours on ESPN and someone thinks that didn't make a difference??? That kind of exposure would cost 10 Million Dollars if you tried to purchase the air time and produce the events yourself.

There was also the "Challenge of Champions" and several other Pro Events on ESPN produced by private promoters and the BCA also had one or two a year for Men and 6-8 Events with the Ladies.

This added up to a LOT of exposure for pool on a weekly basis....now there's none to speak of, just randomly through the year. I don't think anyone realized the magnitude of what I'm saying.....pool went from Millions of Dollars in exposure to almost nothing......and this doesn't make a difference??? A child of 5 could see that it does. :groucho:

Anyone that knows about TV advertising will tell you that the frequency is the key, not random commercials or shows.

We had a great thing going and it will be done again, it's just a matter of time. I would be willing to bet Pocket Billiards is on TV by this time next year on either ESPN, Another Major Station, or FOX SPORTS.

i agree with everything but the last paragraph, you gotta crawl before you walk and we aren't crawling yet imo. We all know what the Color of Money did for pool so exposure is big for sure but these days of 400% more alternatives (the electronic revolution) even more exposure is required and i dont see how we will ever get that any time soon without a new movie with a 30 ish star.

Without that i think it will be a while til pool regains its popularity but i do think it will happen but 5 years away at minimum. The whole mindset of the young'ns will eventually imo change "Hey this electronic stuff isn't even real. It's just lights colors and computer code! We need to do something 'real'. This CAN happen much like the big advances of frozen food, preserved food and other modern miracles are now being rejected and millions want natural.

Pool will be an easy alternative- You dont even need a damn piece of equipment-just show up at the pool room.

I will note from my unofficial observations- a near non sequitur- Skateboarding seems to be winning the war vs video games currently. sure seems like im seeing way more of that
 
Last edited:
With all due respect CJ, that was 15 years ago and what worked then probably won't work that way now, and if it does it will cost 3 times more at least. Regional TV might work, but they better be small very strong regional players, not guys that can't run a rack. Johnnyt
 
Regional TV just means a region of the United States, it still have a few million

With all due respect CJ, that was 15 years ago and what worked then probably won't work that way now, and if it does it will cost 3 times more at least. Regional TV might work, but they better be small very strong regional players, not guys that can't run a rack. Johnnyt

I've met with people recently and the prices have actually went down in the last 2 years.....I have a certain type deal that creates a win/win scenario - I learned it from dealing with ESPN and Fox Sports. The ironic thing is Don Mackey is the one that introduced me to the concept when we did some joint TV Productions in Dallas.

You can buy a HD Camera now for a fraction of the cost of ones 15 years ago and they're much better. TV rates are very competitive right now as well.

Who said anything about using regional players? I would focus on the best players in the country like Earl, Rodney, Johnny, Hunter, Robb, Mike, Corey, etc.

Regional TV just means a region of the United States, it still have a few million viewers. The rates are just lower and we have ways to get them in bigger markets if the quality is proven to be acceptable.

The important thing, in my opinion, is to start getting the pocket billiard product out to the general public. Then we can conform the show and polish the production to increase ratings accordingly.
 
Back
Top