Do You Have the Right to Inspect My Rack?

Jerry Forsyth said:
Folks,

I am at the US Open and do not have a rule book with me. But as I watch this rack-your-own event I watch as players inspect each others racks and make demands for changes.

I do not remember anything in the rules that gives an opponent the right to inspect or comment upon or make requests for changes in my racks.

If I am playing you, rack my own balls and you come up and inspect my rack and ask me to change it, is there anything in the rules that would prevent me from ignoring you and breaking the balls?

I know that I have to follow the rule of racking properly with the rack square and the one on the headstring and the nine in the middle, but do you have the right to require me to eliminate a crack somewhere in the rack? My memory says that you do not and that I can go ahead and break but my memory sometimes fails. Most of the time, actually.
Click to expand...

I believe it's a sportsmanship issue, which makes it difficult to police.

In the rules regarding racking, it's stated that an opponent may call over a referee if he suspects that the racking player is placing the balls in a particular order.

I would also take that to mean if the player in the chair suspects that the racking player is cheating by intentionally leaving certain spaces between balls, then again, they can call over a referee.

However, the issue of the opponent getting out of the chair to check the rack every game can also be a shark move and unsportsmanlike, unless there is reason to believe the racker is cheating.

All of the possible scenarios have to be addressed and discussed ahead of time by the referee staff and then made it clear to the players before the tournament how those issues are to be handled.
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
Folks,

I am at the US Open and do not have a rule book with me. But as I watch this rack-your-own event I watch as players inspect each others racks and make demands for changes.

I do not remember anything in the rules that gives an opponent the right to inspect or comment upon or make requests for changes in my racks.

If I am playing you, rack my own balls and you come up and inspect my rack and ask me to change it, is there anything in the rules that would prevent me from ignoring you and breaking the balls?

I know that I have to follow the rule of racking properly with the rack square and the one on the headstring and the nine in the middle, but do you have the right to require me to eliminate a crack somewhere in the rack? My memory says that you do not and that I can go ahead and break but my memory sometimes fails. Most of the time, actually.
Click to expand...

This is what makes 9 ball a bad game the rack

I watched matches not all the players check each guys racks
But there are some who did and I don't think it's right
Any time you run 2 racks there are a hand full of players that want to find anything wrong with your rack to slow you down
 
The rules in pool were written by people that couldn't run a cathouse by hand. Johnnyt
 
Wow. Fifteen responses (as I type this) and lots to say, but no one can answer the man's OP question? Lots of opinions and moral comments though.

Jerry, the short answer is that there is nothing in current WSR that allows an inspection by the opponent. The issue is simply not addressed in any way. The Administrative Authority for the Open does not publish any further rules concerning the matter. How the matter is actually handled on site I do not know.

Now a couple of side notes.

The closest thing in the recent history of WSR would be the pre-2008 WSR, The old 2.7 allowed for the "player" to inspect a rack prepared by a referee. A common-sense reading of the old rule would indicate that the singular "player" mentioned would be only the breaker. But we both know that TD's and many refs are not famous for paying attention to such niceties.

The answer is clear in CSI events. BCAPL Rule 1-14-3 specifically allows the opponent to inspect the rack without touching it, and the opponent may require one re-rack for any reason. If the players cannnot agree on the rack after one re-rack, a referee will rack the balls for that game only. At that point, the referee is the sole judge of the suitablility of the rack per BCAPL Rule 9-1-2-i. Repeated demands for a re-rack when no discernible reason can be found would be handled as UC.
:smile:

Buddy Eick
CSI National Head Referee
CSI Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League
bca_referee@yahoo.com

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
 
Here's the way it's supposed to work in "rack your own" events. The opponent can check the rack and request a re-rack if he doesn't like how it looks. The breaker may comply with his request or NOT! If they cannot reach an agreement the referee or TD will be called over to inspect the rack. His decision is final. The opponent is allowed to do this only once per rack.

So to put it in short form, "The opponent may inspect the rack and ask for a re-rack. If both players don't agree then an official is called to the table to make a final determination." That's what should have been said at the players meeting.

P.S. Buddy is correct, the BCA rule book does not cover this. Of course there are many things that are not in any rule book. That's why you need competent TD's running an event to handle issues just like this. I like the CSI rule, it makes the official's job a lot easier to enforce.
 
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Jerry Forsyth said:
Folks,

I am at the US Open and do not have a rule book with me. But as I watch this rack-your-own event I watch as players inspect each others racks and make demands for changes.

I do not remember anything in the rules that gives an opponent the right to inspect or comment upon or make requests for changes in my racks.

If I am playing you, rack my own balls and you come up and inspect my rack and ask me to change it, is there anything in the rules that would prevent me from ignoring you and breaking the balls?

I know that I have to follow the rule of racking properly with the rack square and the one on the headstring and the nine in the middle, but do you have the right to require me to eliminate a crack somewhere in the rack? My memory says that you do not and that I can go ahead and break but my memory sometimes fails. Most of the time, actually.
Click to expand...
All I can say is. if I am racking for myself and you have no interest in what I am doing, your in trouble.
 
FranCrimi said:
In the rules regarding racking, it's stated that an opponent may call over a referee if he suspects that the racking player is placing the balls in a particular order.
Click to expand...

That provision does not exist in WSR. If it is included in a locally published set of US Open, rules, please share the text. I would be interested in the wording.:smile:
 
As several have since noted, the rules do require a "tight" rack. However, WSR only specifies "...as tightly as possible..." in WSR 2.2. That is wording typical of WSR. As a matter of pure language it leaves much to interpretation of "tight".

Also as others have observed, intentionally leaving a space in a rack would be reasonably considered as breaking the rules and, since no specific provision exists to address the issue in WSR, would have to fall under UC.

B
 
ask yourself this and youll find the answer...if rack your own was so good then why at turning stone where it was rack your own if both agree otherwise looser racks nobody racked their own...i think the players spoke then
 
tatcat2000 said:
That provision does not exist in WSR. If it is included in a locally published set of US Open, rules, please share the text. I would be interested in the wording.:smile:
Click to expand...

World Standardized Regulations:

Rack at Nine Ball:

As stated in Rule 2.2, balls other than the one and nine are placed randomly in the rack and should not be set in any particular order during any rack. If the referee is not racking, and a player believes that his opponent is intentionally placing balls within the rack, he may bring this to the attention of a tournament official. If the tournament official determines that the player is intentionally positioning balls in the rack, the player will be given an official warning to refrain from doing so. Once warned, should the player continue with intentional positioning of balls in the rack, he shall be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
tatcat2000 said:
Wow. Fifteen responses (as I type this) and lots to say, but no one can answer the man's OP question? Lots of opinions and moral comments though.

Jerry, the short answer is that there is nothing in current WSR that allows an inspection by the opponent. The issue is simply not addressed in any way. The Administrative Authority for the Open does not publish any further rules concerning the matter. How the matter is actually handled on site I do not know.

Now a couple of side notes.

The closest thing in the recent history of WSR would be the pre-2008 WSR, The old 2.7 allowed for the "player" to inspect a rack prepared by a referee. A common-sense reading of the old rule would indicate that the singular "player" mentioned would be only the breaker. But we both know that TD's and many refs are not famous for paying attention to such niceties.

The answer is clear in CSI events. BCAPL Rule 1-14-3 specifically allows the opponent to inspect the rack without touching it, and the opponent may require one re-rack for any reason. If the players cannnot agree on the rack after one re-rack, a referee will rack the balls for that game only. At that point, the referee is the sole judge of the suitablility of the rack per BCAPL Rule 9-1-2-i. Repeated demands for a re-rack when no discernible reason can be found would be handled as UC.
:smile:

Buddy Eick
CSI National Head Referee
CSI Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League
bca_referee@yahoo.com

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
Click to expand...

Hi Buddy :thumbup:
So which set of rules does the US Open currently use - BCA, WPA, WSR?
Not got a clue me!
 
FranCrimi said:
World Standardized Regulations:

Rack at Nine Ball:

As stated in Rule 2.2, balls other than the one and nine are placed randomly in the rack and should not be set in any particular order during any rack. If the referee is not racking, and a player believes that his opponent is intentionally placing balls within the rack, he may bring this to the attention of a tournament official. If the tournament official determines that the player is intentionally positioning balls in the rack, the player will be given an official warning to refrain from doing so. Once warned, should the player continue with intentional positioning of balls in the rack, he shall be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct.
Click to expand...

Some apologies...I was looking for a reg that controls gaps in a rack. Of course Reg 2.2 exists as quoted, but it still does not apply to the OP situation. Also, as Jerry and the WPA Sports Director have pointed out to me on a few occasions, and as is stated in the WPA Regulations themselves, the Regulations are optional at the discretion of the Administrative Authority, and are subordinate to the rules in case of a conflict.

That having been said, a careful reading in the English language indicates that this entire regulation refers ONLY to the placement of the balls with respect to their numeric value. The first sentence clearly sets the subject for the entire paragraph. In no way does the information pertain to a tight rack.
 
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Bella Don't Cry said:
Hi Buddy :thumbup:
So which set of rules does the US Open currently use - BCA, WPA, WSR?
Not got a clue me!
Click to expand...

From my conversations in previous years with past Open TD's the base rule set is WSR. The Open is not very forthcoming with public information concerning the rules used. The web page only contains a few regulatory comments. I have never sat in on a player's meeting at the Open. Maybe someone who has can shed some light on the situation, particularly on whether or not the players are provided with any written material concerning local rules or modifications to existing rule sets in use.

B

By the way, "BCA, WPA and WSR" are all the exact same thing as far as the rules to 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, 14.1 and Black Ball are concerned.
 
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peteypooldude said:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!! And you can look at mine
This is why we use template racks.... To avoid the BS
Click to expand...

Template racks make it easier to get a perfectly tight rack, but they do not guarantee a right rack. Anyone can place balls in a template rack and still leave gaps (especially if the balls are rolled into position instead of being lowered into place).

I still think template racks are a huge improvement over triangles, but they don't eliminate 100% of the problem.

-Blake
 
.WE NEED PROFESSIONAL RULES and REGULATIONS ASAP!!!

Jerry Forsyth said:
Folks,

I am at the US Open and do not have a rule book with me. But as I watch this rack-your-own event I watch as players inspect each others racks and make demands for changes.

I do not remember anything in the rules that gives an opponent the right to inspect or comment upon or make requests for changes in my racks.

If I am playing you, rack my own balls and you come up and inspect my rack and ask me to change it, is there anything in the rules that would prevent me from ignoring you and breaking the balls?

I know that I have to follow the rule of racking properly with the rack square and the one on the headstring and the nine in the middle, but do you have the right to require me to eliminate a crack somewhere in the rack? My memory says that you do not and that I can go ahead and break but my memory sometimes fails. Most of the time, actually.
Click to expand...

They used to throw "spit balls" and "vaseline balls" in baseball....and would put vaseline on golf clubs too, even tennis had "spaghetti strings" they deemed illegal pretty quickly.

....now they have a way to make a ball every time in pool....these things happen in most every sport, but the final thing is to make the rules to PREVENT cheating.

.....and the top pros know how to make these rules, but don't have the authority to do so in their own profession....the promoters make the rules and regulations to fit their idea of a "good tournament".

Through the years we have de evolved to the point of having to do something about all this "pool game perversion".......WE NEED PROFESSIONAL RULES and REGULATIONS ASAP!!!
 
Of course you will look for a way to stack the deck or you will lose

macguy said:
All I can say is. if I am racking for myself and you have no interest in what I am doing, your in trouble.
Click to expand...

Racking your own balls is like dealing cards to yourself when no one is watching......or pitching to yourself in baseball.....or serving to yourself playing tennis.

OF COURSE YOU WILL LOOK FOR A WAY TO "STACK THE DECK" OR YOU WILL LOSE (to someone that does) AND GO HOME......those are the only two options imho
 
CJ Wiley said:
Racking your own balls is like dealing cards to yourself when no one is watching......or pitching to yourself in baseball.....or serving to yourself playing tennis.

OF COURSE YOU WILL LOOK FOR A WAY TO "STACK THE DECK" OR YOU WILL LOSE (to someone that does) AND GO HOME......those are the only two options imho
Click to expand...

There's a third option - both players play with honor under the spirit of the rules. It could happen. Wait a second, no it couldn't. Never mind, forget I said anything.
 
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