Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[SJDinPHX]

Yes, that's correct, when you can push out anywhere you can create virtually any situation.....and you can move one, two or more balls on the push out. Re positioning the ball AFTER the one you're shooting at is VERY IMPORTANT.....and if you make a ball on the "push out" it spots, if you make two balls on the push out TWO BALLS SPOT.

This creates an incredible amount of variables, and the most important thing is to create situations where there's a potential "two way shot" on EVERY opportunity by learning to hit the "Pro Side" of the pockets. This is another skill that has been limited in "one foul ball in hand"......and shooting off the end rail offensively is VERY IMPORTANT as well, it's essential to be able to bank, cut and carom while frozen on the end rail.

Mr.Wil-ey, there are a 'plethora' of reasons, why your theories on the game of 2shot foul 9 ball, are grossly exaggerated.. You have made the game appear (to the uninitiated) to be OVERLY difficult !..Not saying 2F 9 ball, is not a better game than 1F,..it definitely is !..But BOTH are still "paint by the numbers" abbreviated versions of rotation..With shotmaking at a premium.. and brains and imagination,"Optional" ! (drop a few balls, and whattya got...."Pay Ball")

I would venture to say, that 9 ball is much easier to learn well, than even 14.1, and any ALL-AROUND player worth his salt, knows One Pocket is infinitely more difficult to master than straight pool !..(even the ones that won't admit it) ...You really need to get off the 9 ball band wagon, as you are young enough, and could learn to become a top 1P player.... But don't wait too long, as it WILL take way more than '3 weeks', as you will soon find out !

El Roadrunner

 

[CJ Wiley]

back then in New York they played a race to 150 playing straight pool to decide.....

I'm 48. I don't recall seeing bih anywhere on the table until my teens (early to mid 80's). Everything was cue ball in the kitchen before that. And yes, we kicked back into the kitchen to make that legal hit.

Yeah, back then in New York they played a race to 150 playing straight pool to see who broke first playing 9 Ball. It doesn't surprise me they were "kicking" at balls in the kitchen, however in the rest of the country they were playing "ball in hand" after two fouls......I've played literally hundreds of thousands of games of it during the 80s. Country Calvin, Reid Pierce, Matlock, LA Keith, Omaha John, Buddy Hall, Allen Hopkins, Vernon Elliot, Doug Smith, etc. were ALL experts in the game and it was fascinating watching them play.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Keith played PAY BALL as well as anyone in the game at HardTimes.

You rack up the 6 colors on the pink spot...
...and play by the rules of 9-ball....there were variations.

The bet is usually money on every ball, double on the black.

Three names come to mind that were outstanding at this game.
...on a 5x0..Jimmy Reid, Dennie Searcy, and Ronnie Allen.

On a 6x12, I feel that Ronnie and Dennie were in a class of their own.

Keith played PAY BALL as well as anyone in the game at HardTimes......Jimmy Reid seemed to "get the cash" after a few days though, I'm told it was his best game. Not taking anything away from Ronnie and Searcy, they were monsters on that snooker table too playing P.B.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

You rack up the 6 colors on the pink spot...
...and play by the rules of 9-ball....there were variations.

The bet is usually money on every ball, double on the black.

Three names come to mind that were outstanding at this game.
...on a 5x0..Jimmy Reid, Dennie Searcy, and Ronnie Allen.

On a 6x12, I feel that Ronnie and Dennie were in a class of their own.

Thanks. What was the strategy? I can't imagine many break and runs, especially if played on a proper snooker table.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Let me answer, please !...'Pay Ball' is played on a snooker table, with balls numbered 1 thru 6...You MUST shoot the balls, ONLY in numeric order (which means you MUST be able to count to six).. and each ball has a pre-determined $$$ value !!!.. The mind boggling strategic maneuvers in 'Pay Ball', make 2F 9 ball look incredibly simple !.. Some places they play, if you commit 2 consecutive fouls, you are barred from the game for life !

Only "top professional's" are allowed to even attempt this game, as they have already proven they can count to NINE ! .. :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:

PS..Not sure, but I think Wil-ey may have been banned for life !

Average Pay Ball player...........
View attachment 300146

I have no dog in this one but can I just say SJD is absolutely killing CJ on the pithy one liners and funny photos?

 

[jburkm002]

Maybe I just don't get the push out. When would you do that? When you got bad position or someone played a lock down safe. Just seems like a way to get out of a jam. So if someone plays a lock down safe. You can just push out instead of trying to get a good hit. Kinda defeats the purpose of playing a good safe. Maybe I just don't understand. One pocket may be a great game to some. Just to damn boring to me. To many weak shot makers can hide in a game like one pocket. Hell too many players already play like they are playing one pocket when they play 8 or 9 ball. Defense defense defense. Gets old. Just started playing but I really like the rules of 10 ball.

 

[pt109]

Thanks. What was the strategy? I can't imagine many break and runs, especially if played on a proper snooker table.

These snooker tables would not be recognized as 'proper' in the UK....
...they were insanely tight...world regulation is 3.5 at the fall....
..these were 3 inches or less...

But these players would still run out....Ronnie Allen ran 6 racks at Cochran's
in 'Frisco...getting paid double for 6 and out.....in a 'ring' game ( 3 or more players)

 

[Island Drive]

Maybe I just don't get the push out. When would you do that? When you got bad position or someone played a lock down safe. Just seems like a way to get out of a jam. So if someone plays a lock down safe. You can just push out instead of trying to get a good hit. Kinda defeats the purpose of playing a good safe. Maybe I just don't understand. One pocket may be a great game to some. Just to damn boring to me. To many weak shot makers can hide in a game like one pocket. Hell too many players already play like they are playing one pocket when they play 8 or 9 ball. Defense defense defense. Gets old. Just started playing but I really like the rules of 10 ball.

Board play is Pool. Play Alan Hopkins rollout rotation and see how ya like it.

 

[jburkm002]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR7DCFCkqao

 

[CreeDo]

Maybe I just don't get the push out. When would you do that?
When you got bad position or someone played a lock down safe. Just seems like a way to get out of a jam. So if someone plays a lock down safe. You can just push out instead of trying to get a good hit.
Kinda defeats the purpose of playing a good safe. Maybe I just don't understand.

I think the way it works are, there are 2 versions.
In one version, 2 fouls in a row (even if it's one foul from each of us) = ball in hand.

So if you push out when you're in trouble (technically the first foul),
and then I push out (or don't get a rail etc) then that counts as two fouls in a row.
So it's ball in hand for you.

Under these rules, it does seem like safeties would be pointless.
If hooked, you'd always just push to bait them into a shot they can miss and hope they sell out.

But in another version, 2 fouls by different players doesn't result in ball in hand.
Instead, only 2 fouls in a row by the same player does.

Under those rules, safeties make sense. You push, I just push the cue ball right back where it was.
Then if you push again again it would be two consecutive fouls by the same player.
So ball in hand for me.

One pocket may be a great game to some. Just to damn boring to me. To many weak shot makers can hide
in a game like one pocket. Hell too many players already play like they are playing one pocket when they
play 8 or 9 ball. Defense defense defense. Gets old. Just started playing but I really like the rules of 10 ball.

So, think about it... if rollout 9 ball means safeties are pointless...
and you think 1 pocket is boring cuz of all the safeties...
maybe that means you'd find rollout 9b pretty fun.
You definitely won't see defense defense defense all day.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Somebody can clarify. But I'm pretty sure you can't roll out after someone just rolled out.

That would just be pointless.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Never knew 1 pocket was so easy. I really got start playing it more.

 

[Matt]

Mr.Wil-ey, there are a 'plethora' of reasons, why your theories on the game of 2shot foul 9 ball, are grossly exaggerated.. You have made the game appear (to the uninitiated) to be OVERLY difficult !..Not saying 2F 9 ball, is not a better game than 1F,..it definitely is !..But BOTH are still "paint by the numbers" abbreviated versions of rotation..With shotmaking at a premium..

Totally agree, but CJ's opinion of a game's difficulty is primarily based on the difficulty of offensive (meaning attempting to pocket a ball without playing defense) shots. Maybe part of being a "pro" is assuming that you are always taking the best shot, so adding more options to each shot doesn't make the game harder. If that's the case, and it all comes down to execution, why not just "paint by numbers" and cut out as much thinking as possible?

My take on it that shotmakers don't like losing because of poor decisions, so they favor rotation games. People that don't have the physical capabilities or practice time to be shotmakers favor more strategic games. When you find a solid shotmaker that enjoys strategic games (Pagulayan, Frost, etc.), it's really fun to watch.

 

[jay helfert]

Playing any two fouls and then ball in hand anywhere is a suckers game. You miss and get safe by accident. I foul by just pushing out to a lock up safe. You foul, I get ball in hand and run out. Easier to play than just playing one foul.

Back when I played two foul, it was two consecutive fouls by the same person. Then you got BIH in the kitchen.

That's how you played the game. Thanks Neil. On a scratch all balls spotted up and the incoming player had BIH behind the line. He could pass it back to the guy who fouled if he didn't like the shot.

 

[jay helfert]

You rack up the 6 colors on the pink spot...
...and play by the rules of 9-ball....there were variations.

The bet is usually money on every ball, double on the black.

Three names come to mind that were outstanding at this game.
...on a 5x0..Jimmy Reid, Dennie Searcy, and Ronnie Allen.

On a 6x12, I feel that Ronnie and Dennie were in a class of their own.

Denny Searcy was the best EVER at this game! He was incredible. I watched him slide balls down the rail into the corner pocket that most players could not make with ball in hand.

 

[jay helfert]

Yes, Two Shot Shoot Out was the only gambling rules we played in the 70's, 80's and early 90's and it was ALWAYS "ball in hand" anywhere on the table after two fouls.

The only stipulation was the "two consecutive fouls" (by either player) or two fouls by the same player. I've heard of playing "in the kitchen" but that makes the game silly like "one foul" does, just in a different way due to their not being enough penalty for 2 fouls. If someone fouls twice they deserve to give up "ball in hand". imho

Under no circumstances do you ever have to kick at a ball in the "kitchen," that's like saying you can "scoop" the cue ball to jump over object balls....it's simply not true.

I will put together a video explaining the Two Shot Shoot Out Rules and also a 15 minute one specifically demonstrating how Two Shot Shoot Out make 9 Ball more difficult than One Pocket. Anyone is invited to compete if they're not afraid of "Burning up their Money". LoL

Actually CJ, having to shoot from behind the line made the game MORE DIFFICULT than BIH anywhere on the table. Common sense would tell you that. You had to be very adept at shooting at balls on the spot back then. We didn't get the luxury of BIH, that was way too easy! Your version of "shoot out" is a joke! The old style "shoot out" was far more difficult to play then what you're talking about. You were playing a watered down version of the game in the 80's and 90's. Too bad you never got to see the REAL pool players go at it!

Wimpy would have eaten you alive and so would Ed Kelly, Ronnie Allen and Richie Florence just to name a few.

 

[pt109]

Somebody can clarify. But I'm pretty sure you can't roll out after someone just rolled out.

That would just be pointless.

I would ONLY play 'two fouls by SAME player, ball-in-hand'

so...you push to your favorite shot...
...I don't like it...so I push to where I do like it.
You either shoot or say shoot again.....we are both on one foul.

It's the 'shoot again' after any push that makes it make sense.

 

[SJDinPHX]

You aren't understanding the rules correctly. If it's any two fouls, then I just have to lock him up, and he has to hit it legally or I get BIH. I never have to shoot at anything harder than a duck because all I have to do is push the cb to freeze to any ball and then he is stuck trying to 2,3, or 4 rail kick to make a legal shot.

I've never seen anyone play that way for the very reason I mentioned above. It was always two consecutive fouls by the same person. And, it was always BIH in the kitchen, not anywhere.

Actually CJ, having to shoot from behind the line made the game MORE DIFFICULT than BIH anywhere on the table. Common sense would tell you that. You had to be very adept at shooting at balls on the spot back then. We didn't get the luxury of BIH, that was way too easy! Your version of "shoot out" is a joke! The old style "shoot out" was far more difficult to play then what you're talking about. You were playing a watered down version of the game in the 80's and 90's. Too bad you never got to see the REAL pool players go at it!

Wimpy would have eaten you alive and so would Ed Kelly, Ronnie Allen and Richie Florence just to name a few.

Finally, a concensus of people who were around when certain 'coyote's' (and 'Cowboy's' from Detroit) were in pre-school !.. Now I can relax with my buddie's, and watch Judge Judy and Oprah !..:thumbup:..(Note cap, promoting my most favoritist city)

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[BeiberLvr]

I would ONLY play 'two fouls by SAME player, ball-in-hand'

so...you push to your favorite shot...
...I don't like it...so I push to where I do like it.
You either shoot or say shoot again.....we are both on one foul.

It's the 'shoot again' after any push that makes it make sense.

That's dumb. The whole point of pushing is to play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses.

The only two responses to a push should be shoot or give it back.

 

[pt109]

That's dumb. The whole point of pushing is to play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses.

The only two responses to a push should be shoot or give it back.

The disadvantage is always to the first one who pushes.
I think that is fair.