Gold Crown I
- Thread starter Cdryden
- Start date
After a few days and many posts it still seems to me that buying a used GC is probably the best deal your going to get on a used table, especially if you can find one that was privately owned. There seems to be no question as to their quality of construction, they will definitely last a long time, and as far as the way they play it all comes down to personal preference. GCs don't play bad, only different than Diamonds, and there seems to be no shortage of people who do not love the way the Diamonds play.
Agree. Like I stated above, I've owned both and I'm lovin' my present GCII and wouldn't trade back. I'm really not sure how it would play better - that it plays to the present BCA standards in good enough for my needs. The concept of better seems rather subjective assuming the table wasn't beat to hell before acquisition. But, in the end it's all about personal perference.
Diamond tables are prettier .
I doubt if they play any better.
Johnny Archer and John Schmidt can't be wrong.
I bought a privately owned GC 4 last year for 3k including new 860 and installation. I absolutely love it. The cushions are in excellent condition.
If the day ever comes where they need to be replaced, I wouldn't put Artemis with the modified wood rail angles if the mechanic did the job for free.
Diamond makes a great table. However, why they just didn't copy exactly the GC wood rail angles and cushion 30 years ago is beyond me. Then 3 years ago when they changed to the Blue labels they had the chance to do that, but still went in another direction.
If the day ever comes where they need to be replaced, I wouldn't put Artemis with the modified wood rail angles if the mechanic did the job for free.
Diamond makes a great table. However, why they just didn't copy exactly the GC wood rail angles and cushion 30 years ago is beyond me. Then 3 years ago when they changed to the Blue labels they had the chance to do that, but still went in another direction.
And I don't know where anyone is getting a diamond for 3500, as stated earlier in the thread. I was itching to pull the trigger on a Black colored Diamond Professional at last years DCC. I was quoted 5000 for the table PLUS 1000 for the delivery. The 1000 for delivery was for any table. So even a tournament used Pro/Am would have still been 5500 to my door instead of 6000 for the Professional which I like better aesthetically.
I'm going to have to correct you on that one. Brunswick lost their correct sub-rail design more than 50-60 years ago. Brunswick's sub-rails have changed a lot from the GC1's to the 5's, with the newer GC's having much thicker sub-rails, as in well over 1 11/16" thick at the back of the cushions. The thicker the sub-rails, the less the bevel has to be to get the nose height down to 1 7/16" nose height. The early GC3 I just finished working on was less than 1 11/16", so if Brunswick has it so right...why such a change in sub-rails from one model to the next...answer that one
Glen
PS. Diamond still has years to fade the old sub-rail design they were using before they made the change to the blue lable rails, unfortunetly the playability of the older Diamond's are always going to be how the tables will be judged by all those that continue to play on them, that and the Aramith Super Pro Balls, which are junk balls, also make the tables play bad, but the new Cyclops balls change all that for the better.
Last edited:
From reading this forum, including many of your posts, not from personal experience, the #1's and #2's had monarch cushions which had a different profile.
The early 3's had rubber from a new supplier that went dead in a few short years.
The later 3's, all the 4's, and all the 5's have the same wood rail angles and the same rubber quality and cross section.
The first Diamond came out when the GC3 was the latest GC. In all those years, there hasn't been complaints of late GC3, any GC4, or any GC5 cushions. Yet, in all those years, there has been non-stop complaints about Diamond cushions, including the Blue labels.
So, I'll say it again, if Diamond had copied the GC rail and cushion design at some point in the companies history, there would not have been a single complaint about the rails. The only complaint would have been the pockets making the balls black.
The early 3's had rubber from a new supplier that went dead in a few short years.
The later 3's, all the 4's, and all the 5's have the same wood rail angles and the same rubber quality and cross section.
The first Diamond came out when the GC3 was the latest GC. In all those years, there hasn't been complaints of late GC3, any GC4, or any GC5 cushions. Yet, in all those years, there has been non-stop complaints about Diamond cushions, including the Blue labels.
So, I'll say it again, if Diamond had copied the GC rail and cushion design at some point in the companies history, there would not have been a single complaint about the rails. The only complaint would have been the pockets making the balls black.
Because Diamond is not trying to build GC's is why there's a difference, and because Diamond don't use the Brunsick Superspeed K55 profile cushions is another reason.
Diamond is on a quest to build the best possible table there is, that means they're going to go through a lot of R&D until they feel like there's nothing left to improve, and that the table is perfect....which is still not going to be the choice table for some customers out here...that's just the way it is, and always will be.
I'm not against GC's, I've owned 3 different pool rooms with GC3's in all of them, I"m just not fully understanding why so many people that support the GC line of tables....are not complaining more about the different pocket opening miters on every GC built...to Brunswick in order to give them the feed back they need to improve on their own pool tables....yet feel so compelled to complain about the Diamond tables....hmmmm....maybe because Brunswick don't care about the customer feed back...or mabe because Brunswick figures the customers don't know shit anyway, so why should they care.
Glen
No, they don't. With the newer models of GC's, the sub-rails have been made thicker and thicker. The GC5's sub-rails are over 1 3/4" thick at the back of the cushions, which makes the drop from the formica down to the top of the sub-rail if calibrated to 1 11/16" thick...a huge drop, to the point that some of the bottom of the rail needs to be taken off as to cut down the drop off between the formica and the top of the sub-rail.
What that means, is that ANY GC can be made to play better than what Brunswick built the table to play like, through improvment, in which only a certain few mechanic's in this country have the ability to do, and Mark is one of them mechanic's, and knows exactly what I'm talking about. I discussed this change with Mark before he ever started to make the change in the rails he works on, because I ran into a GC up in NY that I had no choice but to take off the bottom foot print of the rails in order to lower down the formica finsh on the rails to within 1/32" of an inch over the height of the calibrated sub-rail being 1 11/16" thick.
People that don't do this kind of work for a living, and don't know how to do it on a level that Mark and I do it on, have no idea what is involved in making these kind of changes in order to calibrate the rails to play to the way we want them to play, not the way the manufactures built them to play.
Glen
perfectpocketz
Banned
Well well..... We have a winner......a man that knows what's going on.
You can't defend yourself on this forum.....but your 100 percent right.
I don't need to correct the guy that knows all the answers...but I'll tell y'all one thing.....I know the GC sub rails pretty good...I'm not the king of GC tables.....but I do know one thing for sure....the older the cloth get on a GC table.....the better the table plays...hmmm.....isn't that how you do it Glen....hmmm?
I can't beat you in a computer contest for sure....but I'll tell everyone this...I don't tell no bullshit.....I say what I know to be true....I don't turn things around on people to make myself look right.
I make mistakes all the time....but I Correct them all.....did I learn things from glen...I sure did......things that I was doing aready...but he showed me and easier way talking about shit over the phone.
Brunswick.....GC5 plays awesome out of the box....I'll tell you why Brunswick has made changes on there sub rails over the past 50 years....the nose was to high to start with and gradually lowered the sub rail over time...and a long with changing the specs of the super speed cushions.
Brunswick didn't want to make the change all in one swing.
The only trouble the GC 3 had was the cushions going bad...trying to keep up with demand from the movie (COM)....Brunswick has never had a problem with the playibility other than the 3 cushions for a short period.
I did my 5 with Artemis cushions and had very little step down.
Glen's a diamond guy...so he's going to defend diamonds....I'm just telling everyone witch is the best playing table of all tables....and again...it's the Brunswick Gold Crown 5....light years ahead of everyone.
I get nothing from Brunswick.../they won't even send me a shirt...and I offered to pay for it.
I'm telling everyone as a player/mechanic....don't worry....I know I'm going to get corrected....I just always get a kick out of how Glen. Has so many bull shit stories he come up with. Man....we all need to check Glen resume...some how some way....he has to be in politics. Lmao
Mark Gregory
Mark....Mark....Mark, buddy....if you have the SKILLS to make a GC play at it's best, them same skills are used to make OTHER tables play at their best as well....wouldn't you agree?...or can you ONLY work on Brunswick's?
I can make Brunswick's AND Diamond's play at their best, in fact, I can throw in some Gandy Big G's in there as well....can't you?
You ARE a full blown, Professional table mechanic....right?
Glen
It's kind of like leveling slates Mark, it takes the same exact skills to level a 3 piece slate on a GC that it takes to level the 3 piece slate on a Diamond, so...what's the difference? You tell one customer in MS that his Diamond can't be leveled because it's a piece of shit, and yet to solve the problem...you offer to sell him a GC4 instead...which has FRAME issues of it's own....LOL
The skills it takes to level slates is no different from one table to the next. IF the GC or DIAMOND has frame issues, you fix them....then you level the slates, but just to say it's not worth fixing...but, I'll sell you a different table....don't speak to highly of your skills as a mechanic as I see it, at least not an all around mechanic.
I sent a customer to you from NC that wanted his Gandy Big G rails rebuilt and calibrated...you must not be able to work on them either because you gave him the same answer....Gandy's are shit tables....but I'll sell you a GC4 for $3,500 instead, of course the rails have been all reworked by you, pockets as well....but I wonder, have you fixed the end frame sag on the GC4's you're offering for sale instead of taking on the requested work?
Has nothing to do with Diamond's when I gave you Scott's name in TX to set his GC up that I had set up once already, then he moved. You were so fast to talk about rebuilt rails that I DID'T rebuild, that you over looked the fact that I had switched out the slate scews with machine screws to mount the slates with as being a 100% better way of securing the slates to the frame of the table because you're no longer relying on wood screws to hold the slate tight to the frame....remember that?
Once again, why would you plug all the slate screw holes I drilled through the frame for the machine screws to fit in...with wood dowels, and go BACK to wood screws to mount the slates? Can't you adpapt to change for the better?...or does that just leave you to confused:thumbup:
Glen
Well, at least now we know a stock GC5 plays better than any table you rebuild the rails on...right?
Glen, I used to play at a pool hall that had Gandy Big G tables.
I'm not going to say they are pos tables but when I saw a mechanic change cloth there one time, it gave me the impression they were pos. He was beating on some piece of metal before he remounted the rails and blinds.
The table would swayed if you accidentally nudge the rails. I looked under the table once to look at the frame . It was nothing like compared to the AMF Grand Prix and GC. Also the rails seemed narrower. The cushions also had these waves. They were nearly new tables . The owner did not want to pay for GC3 and he got those.
Years later they couldn't give away those tables for less than 1K.
Meanwhile 1 hour north of that place, world class pros were raving how well the GC 2's and III's were playing at Hard Times. Millions of dollars have been gambled in there.
Don't get me wrong Joey, Brunswick's and now Diamond's have always been my favorite tables to play on, and only recently I liked playing on the Diamond's....after I made the rail change design.
BUT....as a table mechanic, I work on pool tables, but I don't work on junk just to get paid. That being said, Gandy Big G is kind of where I draw the line on the bottom side of what I'll work on...as, it's still worth while to fix them up....sometimes....LOL
I'm with everyone else in the since that I grew up on Sportkings, GC1's & 2's as well as Anni's and Cent's....but, the tables back then...are not the same tables today. Today, they're tired, worn out and are all in need of either being replaced with newer tables, or in bad need of being rebuilt...the latter being the hardest part of this, as there are only a FEW mechanic's in this country that can even come close to doing the job right, though there's plenty that would lead you to believe otherwise...hahaha....right! They...for the most part are the reason they're in such bad condition...LMAO
So, Gandy's....hmmmm, just once in a while I'll work on them...as an exception to the rule of only working on quality tables to begin with.
A GOOD table mechanic can work on anything, and make anything play better or even great....the question becomes the ROI....is it worth it, or are you just breaking even in the end.
Glen
perfectpocketz
Banned
Ur so stupid it unbelievable. I put super speed cushions in Gandys. Lots of work to the sub rails....I convert snooker tables to pool tables....I convert billiard tables to pool tables....and oh yes. I do believe Greg owner of diamond drive 8 hrs to play on the table I did....after playing on the table for 3 or 4 hours looked at me and said mark as much as I hate to say it....this table plays better than any GC or diamond table I ever played on....and he said and I own diamond.
Greg came to my shop the next morning took me to breakfast came back to the shop....called u on the phone and cussed u like a dog.
U remembering yet....went back to Diamond and started to make the changes to his rails to the specs I was using.
Then u call and said we can't figure out how to tell the difference between the old diamonds and the new rail fix...I was the one that told u to change the color on The logo.
Believe me....I do....have done....and will continue to do the complete table...please stop trying to convince people I can't do any table...makes you look stupid.
Your a very good mechanic....but your not me....get over it.
Let me know it you need more questions answered so you can post them on here as yours....no doubt....your the greatest. Lmao
I truly believe your starting to lose the RKC fan club fast.
We can keep going as long as you like.....you don't up set me....I love a good laugh. And your the perfect guy to laugh with.
RKC forum.....everyone be careful....glen will have you removed.
Now the gloves are off....bring it chump....stings to not be the greatest...lmao
I'm surely not the greatest....but I'm in front of you. Lmao
Mark Gregory
Glen, I'm sure the Big G can be fixed to play well.
But, if you had to rebuild the rails and tweak the frame, how much would that cost ?
And it would still not play as good as a Gold Crown , I would think.
And I still would not trust their frame holding up like GC's frame after years.
Wow Mark...you're still not doing anything I haven't done in the past, but by your own admission....you're one dementinal, you seem to only be able to work with Brunswick superspeed cushions in the K55 profile. The real test would be to calibrate the Gandy rails to take the Artemis K66 pool cushions so that the cue ball will go 5 times back and forth the lenght of the table, and 9 banks around....same as, and no different than a GC with Super speed cushions will do, no more....no less.
Come on Mark, you can do better than that....we both know snooker rails are to thin for any K55 cushions to play correctly, so the rails have to be made thicker in order to play right....and as far as billiard tables go...LOL...I've BUILT them from ground up.....have you?...or did you just work on the rails..LOL
First Billiard tables I built was back in 1983 for an Asian pool room in Seattle, WA.
Come on Mark....please tell me you've got more than this to try and throw at me...pppplease?....LMAO
And as far as Greg playing on the GC3 you rebuilt....isn't that the SAME GC3 you said played like SHIT a few years later....according to you
Do you REALLY think YOU are the person that was the deciding factor in Greg's mind to change the way the Diamond's play?....really?
As far as marking the tables to indicate the change between the old design and the new....for the RECORD, I was against any change that would identify the differences....and today, had Diamond known back then what they know today about the blue lable, they'd have never changed it from the red lable, they would have just left everything on the outside of the table the same, as it's caused nothing but problems ever since....so, GREAT idea there Mark, if you're the one that talked Greg and Chad into the lable change