How Good Was Minnesota Fats?

[tom haney]

That's the impression I'm under but would he have really gotten that much attention? I mean, it would have been fairly obvious to even the untrained eye if he were just a shortstop.

Thus far, the responses have been great! I'm actually really impressed with some of the stories that have been posted!

Years ago he was just Fats. In Chicago he was
Chicago Fats; in New York he was New York Fats.
When the movie The Hustler came out the
character Minnesota Fats was based on Wanderone
so he decided to be called Minnesota Fats after that.

 

[Ken_4fun]

I've cut-and-pasted this post from Keith McCready before, but I thought it applied to this thread. So here it is again! The post was written on July 20, 2003, on CCB.

Matter of fact, I did play Minnesota Fats. Actually, I was the last guy that he played for money before he passed.

I was in St. Louis competing in a pool tournament when I was about 19 or 20. Many of the best pool players of that era were in attendance, including Ronnie Allen who was good friends with the fat man. I was the up-and-coming star at this time, my game not even at its peak, and Fats, I believe out of curiosity, wanted to see how good I played. He had been hearing about this young kid from California, and Ronnie, with his usual gift of gab, got the game going.

I was one of the very few privileged individuals given this opportunity to gamble with Minnesota, as he liked to be called, and what a show it was, one of the best times I have ever had in my life and something that I will never forget. I played him a nickel a game, 8 to 7, one-pocket, and then I spotted him 10 to 8 playing banks. He was a perfect gentleman, very funny, and the games were all pretty close. We were cutting up with each other, and if you think I'm funny, you should have seen him. He was the ultimate entertainer when he was at the table, a real crowd-pleaser, and this was a very unique show between a living legend and a kid. "How, do you like me now, Junior?," he would bellow out after making a good shot, and then as he would approach his next shot, he would turn to the crowd and make gestures towards me. I ate it up, laughing just as hard, if not harder, as everybody else. The whole joint was pulling for Fatty, which I don't blame them. If I wasn't playing, I would have been rooting for him, too. I ended up beating him out of 8 dimes, and he paid me off: 4,000 in $500 bills and the rest in C-notes. He autographed every single one of those $500 bills as he handed them to me. They were priceless, and I sure do wish I still had them. I was on the road with a guy named Charlie the Ape then, and for whatever reason, Charlie went south with my winnings, stealing every single one of those signed $500 bills. But there is one thing that nobody can ever take away from me, and that is this wonderful memory, one I will always cherish, of playing Rudolph Wanderone a/k/a Minnesota Fats.

Years later, I was living in Nashville, and word came out that Fats was very ill and in the hospital. I went to see him and he knew who I was, and even though he didn't feel good, he still maintained his sense of humor. He was talking about old times, laughing and smirking. A week later, he passed.

JAM

This would make a great movie,,,,hint, hint.

Your friend in pool,

Ken

 

[Harvywallbanger]

Years ago he was just Fats. In Chicago he was
Chicago Fats; in New York he was New York Fats.
When the movie The Hustler came out the
character Minnesota Fats was based on Wanderone
so he decided to be called Minnesota Fats after that.

Didn't Fats just self proclaim that the movie character was after him when the director said it wasn't?


Anyways to be more accurate and to give us a better idea about his speed how would he rank in the current IPT field? Could he beat the top woman players of today?

 

[tom haney]

Didn't Fats just self proclaim that the movie character was after him when the director said it wasn't?


Anyways to be more accurate and to give us a better idea about his speed how would he rank in the current IPT field? Could he beat the top woman players of today?

I remember reading that the director said that.
A fat, loud-mouthed famous hustler named Fats
and he wasn't talking about Wanderone? Who
was he kidding?

 

[Nostroke]

Years ago he was just Fats. In Chicago he was
Chicago Fats; in New York he was New York Fats.
When the movie The Hustler came out the
character Minnesota Fats was based on Wanderone
so he decided to be called Minnesota Fats after that.

The author takes issue with that. He has said a million times the Hustler had nothing to do with him, not to mention they were nothing alike (Fats and Fats).

 

[Joseph Ortega]

it sounds like noone wanted to pay mr fats royalties on the movie.

 

[Dhakala]

That's a good question, Jude. But I think back then, because pool was gambling and gambling was pool you could get that kind of recognition for just being a good gambler. Today, since tournaments define the player, the standards are more well-defined...

Furthermore, I imagine Fats appealed mostly to a lay audience and actual tournament pros, like your Mosconis, Cranes and whatnot weren't fooled one bit. I get this from McGoorty's bio I read a while ago. He's got a few stories about Fats in there.

Today, pool is a money-poor sport because there isn't enough of what Fats provided so well - entertainment. Most of the unwashed masses don't value sports players by the latter's performance. Can you just imagine a pool player earning $15 million/year by "batting .500"?

So yeah, Fats was a great pool player... one of the greatest who ever lived.

 

[Williebetmore]

The author takes issue with that. He has said a million times the Hustler had nothing to do with him, not to mention they were nothing alike (Fats and Fats).

Nostroke,
"Nothing alike" is an understatement. Except for their weight they were EXACT POLAR OPPOSITES. The literary Minnesota Fats was classy, understated, full of quiet confidence, well read, well spoken. Tevis said on many occasions how insulting it was for the real-life Fats to claim ANY association with the book - he was a coarse, rude, self-promoting braggart; and could not possibly have been more different than the literary character (unless he got skinny like a super model).

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Nostroke,
"Nothing alike" is an understatement. Except for their weight they were EXACT POLAR OPPOSITES. The literary Minnesota Fats was classy, understated, full of quiet confidence, well read, well spoken. Tevis said on many occasions how insulting it was for the real-life Fats to claim ANY association with the book - he was a coarse, rude, self-promoting braggart; and could not possibly have been more different than the literary character (unless he got skinny like a super model).

It's noteworthy to bring-up. The fact is, it has been agreed by most The Hustler's Minnesota Fats was entirely ficticious. However, this little tid-bit is almost irrelevant. It is just like the chicken and egg question. Which came first, The Hustler or Minnesota Fats? Well, The Hustler came first but it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

[Tommy-D]

> I've looked for a particular article about this and have yet to find it. In this article,it had a verbatim quote from Walter Tevis' widow where she stood up at her husband's BCA HOF induction for Meritorious Service,and called Fats a liar in front of the whole room. I've also heard a quote from Danny Diliberto where he said there were probably 30 guys that would have swam a river of s**t to play him for money. Tommy D.

 

[Cameron Smith]

From what I understand in the 30's and 40's Fats was a great player. Although he wasn't at the same speed of Mosconi or Crane, he was still a pro level player.

As for the movie. I think Minnesota Fats was a composite character. I understand that Walter Tevis was aware of Fats, and did see him play. Furthemore Tevis was in the same city as Wanderone while he researched his novel. So I believe the idea of a character named Fats, with a facial tick, came from Wanderone. However he would substituted Wanderones personality for that of Willie Mosconi.

I don't believe that the character in the book was derived entirely from Wanderone, just perhaps some ideas.

 

[Cornerman]

Actually, I just finished the book which is why I asked the question. It's a good book and I really enjoyed it but it paints a much better picture of the other players it focuses on.

Ditto. Just finished the book last week.

I often wonder... obviously the Hustler character of Minnesota Fats was different than Wanderone, but the moniker of "Fats," was there another well known big-time player at the time with that moniker? I think Tevis was from the Chicago area. And Fats spent some time there. Surely if Tevis were a pool aficionado, he would have heard of Fatty. Or was "Fats" that common a moniker for pool players back then?

At the very least, did he take his moniker?

Fred

 

[TATE]

Honestly, I know as much about this guy as anyone else. I know that he was not a "tournament player" and even though he was a "hustler", I never heard of a single player he actually hustled. My question is simply this: Really, how good was this guy? I know that although he may not have been Mosconi's speed, he was no clown either.

Please, this question is directed at those that actually SAW him play or those that have somewhat reliable information (ie., a story about a personal friend). Please do not refer to a Wide World of Sports video.

Jude,

I would like to say this. This is a difficult question to answer for this very reason. There truly are some players who fall into the proverbial "hustler" mode, where you can't get their best game until you bet it up. But it's not just the betting, it's the extremes they will go to to tilt the odds in their favor. It's knowing what tilts the odds too.

We might think this hustler player is a myth, but I for sure know one such player. He's a road player who travels and makes his way from room to room and has made his living at it. I am no pushover. I guaged his speed at a middle "A" player but no pro. I beat him pretty soundly after a five to six hour session. Later, I offered him the 8 a few times and he turned me down.

Later on, he told me he wanted to play again for higher stakes even up. I was in dead stroke and figured I was playing a ball better than the last time I beat him. Well, he had practiced up for several weeks (many hours) , got me into HIS room with HIS table and HIS cueball (a red dot) and HIS lighting and HIS rolls, and although it was very close, he played at least two balls better than he did before and eventually beat me. His skill level was very high. I was very impressed with his game - what can I say? I asked him afterwards, how he knew he would beat me. He said "I didn't. I just knew you weren't going to beat me." I give him credit for that.

That is why it's hard to answer how good a hustler was. You have to know a good player he took money from in his prime or the people who saw him do it - they're the only ones who can really tell you.

Chris

 

[cuenut]

I agree with Chris. I have seen many hustlers, and the main one that comes to mind was a guy named "Woody" who played in Houston, mainly at Bogie's. I never really saw his top game, and although I know he couldn't beat every player who walked in the door straight up, I never saw him lose any money.

He died of a heart attack about 2 years ago in the pool hall. He was quite a character. Never shut up and always belly laughing like Fats.

 

[PoolBum]

Years ago he was just Fats. In Chicago he was
Chicago Fats; in New York he was New York Fats.
When the movie The Hustler came out the
character Minnesota Fats was based on Wanderone
so he decided to be called Minnesota Fats after that.

Ah, the myth lives on.

 

[Gerry]

Ah, the myth lives on.

yea, I think the big man would be tickled knowing we are all talking about him! If nothing else, he had a great life, and laughed a lot.....not bad in my book.

Gerry

 

[jay helfert]

Setting The Record Straight

How good was Fats?

First of all, his real nickname around New York from the 1920's on was "Triple Smart" Fats. That should give you some indication of how good he was. When it came to matching up, gambling, and taking down the chesse, Fats was at the top of the heap. Now that he is long gone, everyone has a story about how they beat him. Sorry, I don't buy all these stories. I watched Fats rob Richie Florence for two weeks in Johnson City getting 8-7 in One Pocket. He must have won 75 to 80 games total at 300 a game. CORRECT!

Fats best games were One Pocket, Banks and Three Cushions. He played a ball below the champions, but always had money, when they were all brokes. After he became famous in the early 60's, Fats continued to occasionally make a game. And he could still take it down. Fats busted Mosconi once at Mosconi Sr's. poolroom in New Jersey. Willie wanted to play Straights and Fats wanted to play Banks. So they compromised; bank every other ball. Guess who won that mismatch? After that, there was no love lost between these two.

Fats was an amazing human being. He could stop at a gas station in the middle of nowhere, and draw a crowd in 15 minutes. I was in restaurants with him, where we would be waiting for a table, and Fats goes into his spiel. Pretty soon all the diners are up from their tables and crowded around listening to him. He was enormously more famous than any other pool player since Greenleaf. He wasn't just a famous pool player. He was a legitmate celebrity. People recognized him everywhere.

And he couldn't read or write. With barely a third grade education, I would read the menu to him in restaurants or he would just ask for what he wanted. He signed his autographs with a stamp, because for him to write out Minnesotas Fats was difficult and time consuming. And he had a heart of gold, caring for all the strays in his neighborhood in Dowell, Il. But that's another story.

Bottom line, Fats could and would play, and bet high. His weakness was cards, and he got robbed by many card mechanics. He was a card sucker.

 

[TATE]

How good was Fats?

First of all, his real nickname around New York from the 1920's on was "Triple Smart" Fats. That should give you some indication of how good he was. When it came to matching up, gambling, and taking down the chesse, Fats was at the top of the heap. Now that he is long gone, everyone has a story about how they beat him. Sorry, I don't buy all these stories. I watched Fats rob Richie Florence for two weeks in Johnson City getting 8-7 in One Pocket. He must have won 75 to 80 games total at 300 a game. CORRECT!

Fats best games were One Pocket, Banks and Three Cushions. He played a ball below the champions, but always had money, when they were all brokes. After he became famous in the early 60's, Fats continued to occasionally make a game. And he could still take it down. Fats busted Mosconi once at Mosconi Sr's. poolroom in New Jersey. Willie wanted to play Straights and Fats wanted to play Banks. So they compromised; bank every other ball. Guess who won that mismatch? After that, there was no love lost between these two.

Fats was an amazing human being. He could stop at a gas station in the middle of nowhere, and draw a crowd in 15 minutes. I was in restaurants with him, where we would be waiting for a table, and Fats goes into his spiel. Pretty soon all the diners are up from their tables and crowded around listening to him. He was enormously more famous than any other pool player since Greenleaf. He wasn't just a famous pool player. He was a legitmate celebrity. People recognized him everywhere.

And he couldn't read or write. With barely a third grade education, I would read the menu to him in restaurants or he would just ask for what he wanted. He signed his autographs with a stamp, because for him to write out Minnesotas Fats was difficult and time consuming. And he had a heart of gold, caring for all the strays in his neighborhood in Dowell, Il. But that's another story.

Bottom line, Fats could and would play, and bet high. His weakness was cards, and he got robbed by many card mechanics. He was a card sucker.

Jay,

It's good to know the opinion of someone like you who has experience with these matters.

Chris

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

How good was Fats?

First of all, his real nickname around New York from the 1920's on was "Triple Smart" Fats. That should give you some indication of how good he was. When it came to matching up, gambling, and taking down the chesse, Fats was at the top of the heap. Now that he is long gone, everyone has a story about how they beat him. Sorry, I don't buy all these stories. I watched Fats rob Richie Florence for two weeks in Johnson City getting 8-7 in One Pocket. He must have won 75 to 80 games total at 300 a game. CORRECT!

Fats best games were One Pocket, Banks and Three Cushions. He played a ball below the champions, but always had money, when they were all brokes. After he became famous in the early 60's, Fats continued to occasionally make a game. And he could still take it down. Fats busted Mosconi once at Mosconi Sr's. poolroom in New Jersey. Willie wanted to play Straights and Fats wanted to play Banks. So they compromised; bank every other ball. Guess who won that mismatch? After that, there was no love lost between these two.

Fats was an amazing human being. He could stop at a gas station in the middle of nowhere, and draw a crowd in 15 minutes. I was in restaurants with him, where we would be waiting for a table, and Fats goes into his spiel. Pretty soon all the diners are up from their tables and crowded around listening to him. He was enormously more famous than any other pool player since Greenleaf. He wasn't just a famous pool player. He was a legitmate celebrity. People recognized him everywhere.

And he couldn't read or write. With barely a third grade education, I would read the menu to him in restaurants or he would just ask for what he wanted. He signed his autographs with a stamp, because for him to write out Minnesotas Fats was difficult and time consuming. And he had a heart of gold, caring for all the strays in his neighborhood in Dowell, Il. But that's another story.

Bottom line, Fats could and would play, and bet high. His weakness was cards, and he got robbed by many card mechanics. He was a card sucker.

See, this is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks!!! Your account actually supports something a friend said to me: Although the general public didn't realize that Fats was not as good as the touring pros, most around the game (especially today) under-rate his game.

I wanted to know from those that actually saw him. Your story, Jay's and JAM's really give a more telling picture of the player/person he really was.

 

[Gerry]

Man!...I'd love to have a pool nick name like "triple smart!"....

how cool is that!

Gerry