Cut, bank, or "other"?

[iusedtoberich]

Below is the cuttable layout from the first post, and a top down view of my table layout (I stood on the table and took the picture trying to be directly overhead). You can see I have a grid on my whole table, and it matches up with the cuetable diagram fairly well. The horizontal line above the 4 is there, barely, it has faded a bit. I think I'm going to redo all the lines in black like I have on the spot line for the rack.

Below that is a screenshot from my videos, rotated 90 degrees to the same view as the above pictures. You can see this looks different, cause its from a different angle. My video camera is on the ceiling 6' from the edge of the table.

Exact ball placement from a video is SUPER hard. You have to contend with parallax issues. You can even see on my table, with me standing on top of the table to take the photograph, the left most vertical line looks to be about half a ball width away from its diamond. I can assure you, it is exactly aligned with the diamond.

Pictures can be deceiving. Thats why they are inadmissible as court evidence, unless the photographer who took them is present to stand by them. (At least that's what I learned on TV, lol)

 

[Neil]

Below is the cuttable layout from the first post, and a top down view of my table layout (I stood on the table and took the picture trying to be directly overhead). You can see I have a grid on my whole table, and it matches up with the cuetable diagram fairly well. The horizontal line above the 4 is there, barely, it has faded a bit. I think I'm going to redo all the lines in black like I have on the spot line for the rack.

Exact ball placement from a video is SUPER hard. You have to contend with parallax issues. You can even see on my table, with me standing on top of the table to take the photograph, the left most vertical line looks to be about half a ball width away from its diamond. I can assure you, it is exactly aligned with the diamond.

Pictures can be deceiving. Thats why they are inadmissible as court evidence, unless the photographer who took them is present to stand by them. (At least that's what I learned on TV, lol)

View attachment 309040

View attachment 309042

O.K., looks like I was wrong on the placement. However, from the overhead view, I still would cut that ball in the side.

 

[dabarbr]

Video of side pocket cut with inside:
http://youtu.be/yP_91yDz5j8

I stand corrected. I just shot the ball in the side with inside english. I made it 6 for 6. With inside the ball was actually way easier to pocket than with center which is what I was using before.

The inside also held up the CB for actually the closest position on the combo.

Sorry about the video, I shot it 6 times, and made it all 6 times with position. Then I shot it in the corner again going between the 8 and 9 and got on that perfect as well. But my video cut out after the third shot, I'm out of hard drive space! Yikes.

So, I think I like both options about the same. But if you shoot it in the side, the inside makes the shot 10 times better than center ball, both from an ease of pocketing standpoint, and from a position on the combo standpoint.

Note, I think on a Diamond table the inside would not have held up the CB as well as on this GC4, imo.

I find that when shooting a shot like this for the side pocket it's easier for me to use low outside English, which in this case is left English, This will allow me to hit the object ball just a speck fuller which in turn will allow the object ball to open up a bit and the cue ball will have less roll for better position. (closer to the five ball).

Inside English for this shot requires more speed and that's why the video shows the cue ball going way up table. Experience is the teacher.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

The video shots look to be on slightly but significantly different positions of the balls compared to the ones in the diagram.
With balls placed like in the diagram the cut to the side option looks the best, with balls placed like in the video cut to the corner looks the best.
It might help using a "map" placement like in target pool, easier to approach more accurately ball positions even when comparing them in different tables.
Petros

 

[Quesports]

Video of side pocket cut with inside:
http://youtu.be/yP_91yDz5j8

I stand corrected. I just shot the ball in the side with inside english. I made it 6 for 6. With inside the ball was actually way easier to pocket than with center which is what I was using before.

The inside also held up the CB for actually the closest position on the combo.

Sorry about the video, I shot it 6 times, and made it all 6 times with position. Then I shot it in the corner again going between the 8 and 9 and got on that perfect as well. But my video cut out after the third shot, I'm out of hard drive space! Yikes.

So, I think I like both options about the same. But if you shoot it in the side, the inside makes the shot 10 times better than center ball, both from an ease of pocketing standpoint, and from a position on the combo standpoint.

Note, I think on a Diamond table the inside would not have held up the CB as well as on this GC4, imo.

Now you've got it. Inside slows the cue ball down off the first rail and allows you to cut the ball further than outside English. Center & outside also allows the cue ball to pick up spin coming off that first rail which you don't want. TOI with a little follow is all you need..

 

[uwate]

looking at the wei diagram, my first thought was oh definitely cut it in the side. I think those diagrams can be deceptive, sorta like how you get surprised by shot selection all the time watching live streams, but in reality the shooter is often making a good choice and the view you have is deceptive compared to being there at the table. Alot of times too the wrong shot is the right shot for a particular shooter who is there at the table and is feeling that particular shot with confidence.

 

[Black-Balled]

Careful, BB. I heard he shuts real strat.

Aaron

I meant to say, 'cure the belief'. Not even sure what 'bier' is.

And for the record, I prefer gibsons over fender guitars, 8 days a week!!

 

[Neil]

Video of side pocket cut with inside:
http://youtu.be/yP_91yDz5j8

I stand corrected. I just shot the ball in the side with inside english. I made it 6 for 6. With inside the ball was actually way easier to pocket than with center which is what I was using before.

The inside also held up the CB for actually the closest position on the combo.

Sorry about the video, I shot it 6 times, and made it all 6 times with position. Then I shot it in the corner again going between the 8 and 9 and got on that perfect as well. But my video cut out after the third shot, I'm out of hard drive space! Yikes.

So, I think I like both options about the same. But if you shoot it in the side, the inside makes the shot 10 times better than center ball, both from an ease of pocketing standpoint, and from a position on the combo standpoint.

Note, I think on a Diamond table the inside would not have held up the CB as well as on this GC4, imo.

I missed this post before. See, you learned something today!

 

[CreeDo]

For those wondering, here's a video of the match. The link goes to 35:11, where the shot takes place.
››› http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uqzWCcKjwME#t=2111 ‹‹‹


Appleton made a tough shot to leave Karl this ugly shot on the 4.

As usedtoberich said, the cut in the side is thin. I promise you, this is easier to cut into the corner than the side.
I don't care if you think you're a "side pocket specialist". It's a very thin blind cut. The cue ball is flying.
There's little chance of a lucky miss-safe because the thinness of the cut means the 4 isn't moving fast.

Here's an overlay of my diagram with the video (thankfully mosconi cup provides overhead shots).
Below is an attempt to overlay iusedtoberich's setup, with the perspective corrected.
You can tell by the shadows that his positioning of the 4 and the cue ball was very close. The rest don't matter much.

I recommend people set it up on an actual table.
I did and found that the cut in the corner is the shot after all. At least for me.
The side was harder and there really was no reason to even look at it.
The corner just needs a hair of inside to keep the cueball from going long.
Or a hair of outside to avoid colliding with the 8, and accept the long but easy combo.

The bank that I thought I liked was actually tougher than I thought because you must hit soft.
I am used to banking soft to make my system work. But to ensure 4 stays up it's EXTRA soft.
That makes it very missable, it went long several times because I used soft draw to hold the cue ball.

For me, the cut is just a known aiming point and position is nearly irrelevant.
Anywhere except behind the 8/9 is fine. Your average B player can make that combo frozen to the head rail.

 

[Quesports]

Well I guess it is all in shooting what your comfortable with, that is usually a shot you have seen and had success with. For me it's the side shot as I routinely cut in balls that look like they are near to impossible, I use slight follow with inside english. The harder the cut the more speed I use, just my way of playing em.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Bearing in mind that we all see shots differently when in two dimensions and trying to transfer them to three dimensions, here are the actual shots of the layout from the match:







I would still shoot the 4 in the side.

ONB


P.S. Boyes left the cueball here after he overcut the 4 ball (cueball hit the 8):

 

[Black-Balled]

I read all the replies... I'm having trouble visualizing a safety in this layout. Do you guys mean bank the 4 near the 8 and 9 and play the CB to the foot rail? That probably won't hide anything.

I just don't see any good safety choice.

I think you are picturing a shot where 4b goes straight back/ forth table and cb to the left of the pic (foot rail)? If so, that is not the way to play safe from there, IMO.

The safe is to bank the 4 into the pic's top rail, Then to the foot rail and on the rail by the 5. Cb struck with a lotta r) spin and likely a bit of draw/ drag, strIkes the rail above the side and spins to head rail, then to side rail, joining all the other balls on the rai that is on the bottom of the pic. The more spin you use, the easier it becomes to leave cb on that rail, as the approach angle gets longer.

Good shot to know...pretty easy and comes up all the time.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think you are picturing a shot where 4b goes straight back/ forth table and cb to the left of the pic (foot rail)? If so, that is not the way to play safe from there, IMO.

The safe is to bank the 4 into the pic's top rail, Then to the foot rail and on the rail by the 5. Cb struck with a lotta r) spin and likely a bit of draw/ drag, strIkes the rail above the side and spins to head rail, then to side rail, joining all the other balls on the rai that is on the bottom of the pic. The more spin you use, the easier it becomes to leave cb on that rail, as the approach angle gets longer.

Good shot to know...pretty easy and comes up all the time.

I'll try this safety tomorrow. I don't think its laying right, but I'll try it anyway. I'll make a video tomorrow. Any other safety suggestions?

 

[BeiberLvr]

I'll try this safety tomorrow. I don't think its laying right, but I'll try it anyway. I'll make a video tomorrow. Any other safety suggestions?

Pretty sure this could work, but I wouldn't say it's easy.

Just slightly back cut the 4 with a stun stroke. Main objective is to play the speed of the 4 ball.

This is really a situation where since both the shot and the safety aren't gimme's, I prefer to take the aggressive route and shoot since there doesn't seem to be an automatic lock up safety.

 

[osama]

Pretty sure this could work, but I wouldn't say it's easy.

Just slightly back cut the 4 with a stun stroke. Main objective is to play the speed of the 4 ball.

This is really a situation where since both the shot and the safety aren't gimme's, I prefer to take the aggressive route and shoot since there doesn't seem to be an automatic lock up safety.

Many things can go wrong with that safety. Specially if I was shooting it..

 

[BeiberLvr]

Many things can go wrong with that safety. Specially if I was shooting it..

It's actually not terribly hard. Like I said, you really just need to control the 4. It almost doesn't matter where the CB goes as long as it stays on the tangent line.

 

[JC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCTGU7lLxKU&feature=youtu.be

I made another video, showing the cut in the side again, the bank again, and the cut in the corner again.

The cut in the side is no good. No way. The CB ends up at the other end of the table, making the combination impossible to control well.

The bank is so-so. Its easy to make the bank combo, but also missable, and also can get the 4 stuck behind the 5 as you will see happened.

No question the cut in the corner, sending the CB between the 8 and the 9 is the best option.

Again, these are all with the 6 in the middle of the jaws, not on the edge, so that the combo does not become trapped.

It appears to me you set up your shot about 10 degrees thinner than the diagram toward the side pocket. Huge difference. No wonder you had so much trouble with it.

JC

 

[JC]

I'll try this safety tomorrow. I don't think its laying right, but I'll try it anyway. I'll make a video tomorrow. Any other safety suggestions?

These two shots come to mind. The black path is a stun shot using about a tip of right English and the red path is a stun shot using a toi to slow the cue ball off the rails. I am in the process of setting up my table right now so I can't try either one.

 

[pt109]

For those wondering, here's a video of the match. The link goes to 35:11, where the shot takes place.
››› http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uqzWCcKjwME#t=2111 ‹‹‹


Appleton made a tough shot to leave Karl this ugly shot on the 4.

As usedtoberich said, the cut in the side is thin. I promise you, this is easier to cut into the corner than the side.
I don't care if you think you're a "side pocket specialist". It's a very thin blind cut. The cue ball is flying.
There's little chance of a lucky miss-safe because the thinness of the cut means the 4 isn't moving fast.

Here's an overlay of my diagram with the video (thankfully mosconi cup provides overhead shots).
Below is an attempt to overlay iusedtoberich's setup, with the perspective corrected.
You can tell by the shadows that his positioning of the 4 and the cue ball was very close. The rest don't matter much.

I recommend people set it up on an actual table.
I did and found that the cut in the corner is the shot after all. At least for me.
The side was harder and there really was no reason to even look at it.
The corner just needs a hair of inside to keep the cueball from going long.
Or a hair of outside to avoid colliding with the 8, and accept the long but easy combo.

The bank that I thought I liked was actually tougher than I thought because you must hit soft.
I am used to banking soft to make my system work. But to ensure 4 stays up it's EXTRA soft.
That makes it very missable, it went long several times because I used soft draw to hold the cue ball.

For me, the cut is just a known aiming point and position is nearly irrelevant.
Anywhere except behind the 8/9 is fine. Your average B player can make that combo frozen to the head rail.

I watched Karl shoot this shot....and I couldn't believe he wasn't playing
it in the side.
And he made a terrible hit also. Notice that he over-cut it by a mile, and
the cue-ball still hit the 8-ball....he must have chickened out on the
check english.

For the 4-ball in the side, also remember that the thin cut is easier on
new cloth....dirty or loose cloth might make me play it in the corner.
...but not on these conditions.

 

[C.Milian]

Looks like you can cinch the 4 in the side and still have many options. Karyl could have landed stuck behind the 8 and ralf would have somehow whack the shit out of the cue ball and make the 5, 6, 8, and nine in the same corner pocket.