Danny Harriman Controversy

[ShaneT58]

I read a lot of these posts but not all so maybe someone already said this but maybe the rule was left out on purpose just so that when this situation come up the person can crawl up on the table to make a shot. I would think it would make for better TV. Regardless, he won the match and followed the rules governing the even he played in. I don't see any problem at all.

I think its funning about all this talk about respect for the game. I'm willing to bet that most people would stand up in the middle of the table and moon their opponent if they were gauranteed a couple grand for doing it.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I got laughed at when I said that IPT rules are f***ing stupid, and that BCA rules are superior. This was because everyone there (including a few qualified players) are so interested in seeing the IPT succeed that no dissent is tolerable whatsoever. You are an instant idiot or outcast the moment you speak ill of the IPT.


The BCA rules are the way they are because they have been written and revised over the course of DECADES in order to make the game as PURE and as fair as possible, while covering virtually every single possible and conceivable situation that might arise on the table, or during match play.


This exploitation just goes to show how primitive the IPT rules are. The IPT is suffering from a case of "if it wasn't made here" syndrome. They want to reinvent the wheel. Go for it. They should just suck it up and adopt the BCA rules, then modify them with their unique breaking rules and 3-foul rule before they lose too much respect. I'm sure they don't care - their strategy is that if they throw enough money at pool - everything else is irrelevant.


Here's the thing. Deno is a very knowledgable player and person. He has to enforce these loop-holes or deficiencies in the IPT rules.


OH, and one more thing...they have to allow this to slide for the rest of the tournament. WOULDN'T it be just grand if on the final, being recorded for DVD's, the greatest match in POOL HISTORY, for $500,000 has a couple of players who crawl all over the table like 3-year olds to make a shot! LOL. That would be a sight to see. Why bother with a dress code with rules like these?

 

[Island Drive]

Just read about this this morning. Definately weird that it is not a rule and harriman would capitalize on that.

I like Archer, dont get me wrong, but him saying "He disrepected me" seems like he is reading a line from Earl Strickland's script. I think Archer took that personally when Danny was doing what he had to to win the game.

To bad they didnt get a picture of that in the photo gallery.

ARCHER IS "WRONG" ABOUT DISRESPECTING HIM, DANNY TOOK IT UP A NOTCH, HE SHOWED DISRESPECT FOR THE GAME. HE COULD OF SAID TO DENO, OK LETS MAKE A RULING CHANGE NOW BECAUSE WE KNOW WE'RE GONNA CHANGE IT NEXT EVENT. "STAY OFF TABLE" IT'S WHAT WE TELL OUR KIDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nostroke]

Just got here and people are climbing all over the tables today so the rule hasnt been changed.

 

[Blue_chalk]

I would describe this a loophole in the rules. Deno wrote the rules and controls them exclusively. Deno feels that some things are so obviously known rules that they do not have to be written into the rules.

Who ever said that there are other things the rules do not cover is absolutley right. This sort of thing will happen again. I even asked Deno if World Standardized Rules (e.g. BCA/ACS) act as the safety net for things not covered by the IPT rules. He said NO. The IPT rules are standalone. This is just plain wrong!

For instance, in BCA if a ball leaves the bed of the table and returns without hitting anything it is not a jumped ball. If it hits chalk, the light or anything it is considered a jumped ball. By IPT rules...a ball could jump up, hit chalk, a light, a player, whatever and come back into play and NOT be a jumped ball. This is directly from the mouth of Deno.

 

[watchez]

ARCHER IS "WRONG" ABOUT DISRESPECTING HIM, DANNY TOOK IT UP A NOTCH, HE SHOWED DISRESPECT FOR THE GAME. HE COULD OF SAID TO DENO, OK LETS MAKE A RULING CHANGE NOW BECAUSE WE KNOW WE'RE GONNA CHANGE IT NEXT EVENT. "STAY OFF TABLE" IT'S WHAT WE TELL OUR KIDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The pool room I 'grew up in' gambling has no rule against getting up on the table. I always make sure that the person I am gambling with knows this rule before matching up if they haven't played there before. Name almost any champion one pocket player and they have played at this room. I think it is GREAT that Danny did this and knew the rule & Archer is out of line thinking it was disrespect. If Danny gets anything against him for poor sportsmanship, then so should Archer for his comments.


Real Pool, Real Rules, Real Money

 

[Bob Jewett]

... BUT the one rule change i think is the one to sort the problem of moving balls not during a players' turn, like Quinten Hann did against Darren Appleton, where he alledgedly threw his cue on the table and moved balls, Appleton still had to run it out, which is very flawed as what stopped Hann from moving balls into safe positions?

The illegal ball movement was on Hann's turn.

The cue ball rolled behind his opponent's ball (the 14?) as Hann pocketed his last solid and then he slapped the cue ball with the side of his stick out of frustration, pocketing the 14. Appelton protested briefly that it should be the frame, but I don't think any referee got involved, and Appleton ran out.

If this situation is not covered under "unsportsmanlike conduct" it should be, and the minimum penalty should be loss of frame.

 

[BigMalUK]

I think Johnny Archer did over-react here (though I do like the guy), but there's no denying that this should not be allowed. I believe you have to keep one foot on the floor in all other cue sports and I think they need to specify this for future events.

I suppose it's a little like the way Mark Calcavecchia used a wedge on the St.Andrews greens a few years back - no rule says you can't, but do you really want to see that? Is is really in the best interests of the sport?

I do understand where Danny is coming from in doing it and I also understand why Johnny is upset - let's just hope they draw a line under it and stamp it out in future and they do put it behind them and shake on it in the end.

 

[Scottster]

and the rest of the story...

Earlier in the day, Danny noticed 2 World Champions, One of them a "Hall of Famer", and both of them with their IPT Tour Cards (named earlier in this topic), get up on the table, with no shoes on and no foot touching the floor to execute a shot. Danny did not find a loop-hole, he made an observation.

For some reason there was no fuss made about these 2 circumstances.

All of a sudden, when Danny, has the same scenario occur, even after verifying with the ref if he was allowed to "giddy-up", the ref said yes but take off your shoes. Danny does execute the shot, which BTW he would make 90/100 with a bridge, gets up and makes the shot in a fashion he would make it 100/100, and all of a sudden APA SL 4's are calling him a cheat!!??

Somehow, somewhere in this minute (pronounced "my noot" for the illiterate) giddy-up shot, the fact that Danny Broke and ran 7 racks in one set, ran 5 in one and 4 in another, Oh yeah a 2-pack in another, which
SL 4's would think they could actually play if they ever put up a 2 pack, and played extremely well, has been tarnished.
Tuesday's story should have been about his stellar play against 5 IPT card Holders. But instead it is about a shameless attempt to break down Danny's focus. NEWSFLASH!!! Its gonna take more than that to phase him.

Danny goes to shake Johnny's hand and you know the rest from there.

 

[Blackjack]

Well said, Scott.

 

[rackmsuckr]

From my point of view, I always thought one foot on the floor was a dumb rule to begin with. I am being penalized for being short. When people sit sideways with one butt cheek on the rail and one foot on the floor, for me, my foot is always dangling, so I am unable to assume the same positions to get out to the middle of the table, which comes up a lot in 9 ball for jumping.

Many times, the right positioning even for BIH is too far away to reach without a bridge and blocked to try another route, that a taller person of only 5'6" could reach.

I don't advocate crawling 100% on the table, but certainly having at least one leg dangling over the side should be ok. Maybe a rule stating that at least one leg must be on the outside of the table would suffice.

I was told by a referee yesterday before I left that one foot on the floor was not necessary and was looking forward to using that rule in Chicago, lol.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Danny did what he must to win! He did not break the rules in the process.

Regarding any defaming of the game or un-sportsmanlike conduct, Danny holds himself to a much higher standard than most out there. Do not judge.

Johnny, would be best off having still shaken his hand, but would most likely feel very much like making an excuse for himself out of this incident.

 

[TheOne]

From my point of view, I always thought one foot on the floor was a dumb rule to begin with. I am being penalized for being short. When people sit sideways with one butt cheek on the rail and one foot on the floor, for me, my foot is always dangling, so I am unable to assume the same positions to get out to the middle of the table, which comes up a lot in 9 ball for jumping.

Many times, the right positioning even for BIH is too far away to reach without a bridge and blocked to try another route, that a taller person of only 5'6" could reach.

I don't advocate crawling 100% on the table, but certainly having at least one leg dangling over the side should be ok. Maybe a rule stating that at least one leg must be on the outside of the table would suffice.

I was told by a referee yesterday before I left that one foot on the floor was not necessary and was looking forward to using that rule in Chicago, lol.

Shoe Extensions?

 

[heartworm]

He of course violated the dress code when he took off his shoes but this was allowed by the ref, and since the ref. is always right it was a sensible thing to do...

Is there anything on laserpointers in the IPT rules or 1 feet stiletto heels?

 

[Scottster]

Fines? Critics keep mentioning fines... if anyone should be fined it is Johnny for his perfect display of "Unsportsman Like Conduct".

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I have not argued that Danny is unsportsman. He played BY the rules. End of story. Anyone have a problem with Danny's actions and play is out of line.


Now, I do have a problem with the IPT rules. I think they are too basic. But, I'm not playing in the IPT, so I don't really care a whole lot. As a fan though, I do lose a little respect for the IPT when they don't address stuff like this. Shouldn't be crawling on tables. Where does one draw the line? Does this mean I can get 100% on the table, on my knees so I can nail a mid-table jump shot that's within 1/8" of the impeding ball?

If you don't have well-defined rules - people will work very hard to find all sorts of ways to exploit the absense of such rules. The only limit is people's imagination. As a result, it is best that such rules are made in order to keep the game of pool resembling that which we all typically consider being pool.

 

[Nick B]

I got a idea

Hypothetically I'm playing and I need to win my next match or I'm out. I therefore have my opponent rubbed out ala Tanya Harding and I go on to win 8-0. Now it's not un-sportsmanlike because it's not expressly written in the rules...real rules and thus I'm home free (I didn't do it or even violate the dress code).

Danny H did nothing wrong.
Archer got steamed for something that should not be allowed.
Shame on the "Rulers" for not putting a stop to whoever did it first. That's the real problem.

As was stated before stick to BCA...they have worked out the kinks.

 

[AuntyDan]

rackmsuckr - Anything in the IPT (Or BCA for that matter) rules that says you can't take one of those little steps on wheels librarians use and roll that around as you shoot? Or if you're old-school use one of those wooden Coca-Cola crates.

Blue_chalk - Next time a Ask Deno if there's also anything in the IPT rules says you can't take a wrench to the Diamond table leg levellelrs, jack up the head end of the table before you break and make all 15 balls on the snap?

Bola Ocho - I personally think you are spot on, but there's nothing to be done but wait for the IPT to slowly improve their rule book. It really would have been so much simpler to adopt the BCA General rules and then just add a revised 8 Ball rule-set on top of that whenever it differed. So it goes.

Scottster - Nothing ruins a great thread like this than actual facts that show the behaviour in question to not be nearly as outlandish and abberrrant as originally suggested. Please keep you rational, sensible, non-inflammatory statements to yourself in future you kill-joy ;-)

 

[Island Drive]

Danny did what he must to win! He did not break the rules in the process.

Regarding any defaming of the game or un-sportsmanlike conduct, Danny holds himself to a much higher standard than most out there. Do not judge.

Johnny, would be best off having still shaken his hand, but would most likely feel very much like making an excuse for himself out of this incident.

I agree, but the GAME is bigger than all of us or any one man. I think out of respect for the game, the first player that thought of getting on a table, the ball was in his court knowing this is not proper etiquette and it should of never started but stopped at the initial situation. Think about it if the IPT was on 6x12's ))))

 

[Koop]

I'll jst ask a question with no intentions or arguing.

Didn't Danny play by the rules? I wasn't there and actually never heard of a rule where you didn't have to leave one foot on the floor but, if the rules say it's ok and there is that much money on the line, I say more power to him.
IMO, Archer is the one a thread should be started about, not Danny. He was the one IMO who broke the code of conduct in not shaking Danny's hand.

Just some observations from someone on the outside looking in.

Thanks,
Koop