What Do You Look for in Billiard Instruction?

Fast Lenny

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
I know many of you on the forum have gotten lessons and I was curious as to what you look for. I know some just want to spend time with a pro and maybe learn a thing or two, others want great instruction whether the person can play at a high level or not. You can also feel free to tell who were some good and bad instructors you have dealt with.
 
For me personally, I wanted to break down my fundamentals. I knew they were fairly poor. I researched the pool school to see what was involved. One of the main factors that made me want to do it was the filming as the video does not lie on what you do or don't do.

When doing the school they made sure to point out that what they were going to show will do you absolutely no good if you don't study and implement it right away. Start practicing good habits vs bad habits. You can't just sit in the class for three days and then a month to two months later start to practice what they just went through.

When deciding on doing it or not I would put this quick little list of questions together:

1. What is your budget $ to spend?
2. What do you want out of the class?
3. What qualities do you want for the teacher giving the lessons?
4. Do you have access to a table to practice what you have learned (very important)
5. Post class goals?

I can think of a few more but here's a good short list.
 
Those that can DO

Now I'm not saying that you have to play at a pro speed but as an instructor you have to be able to execute what it is u are teaching, preferably on the first attempt.

I've gotten instruction from pros and instructors and not all pros teach well and not all instructors play well.

Key factors to consider:

1. Reputation as a teacher
2. Are they able to show or demonstrate what it is they want u to do.
3. Do they have a language so that they can convey their lesson to you.
4. Are they willing to admit when they can't take you beyond a certain point.

When I have the chance to teach someone I always run these key points to them and give them the first lesson as a "if you like it u can pay and we can continue until I can't take you any further"
 
How I got lucky

When I decided to get lessons, I got lucky. I had been donating $20 at a time playing a road player. I knew who he was and would just play him to see how long I could make my money last. It was futile though because he played so much better I could not tell when he was stalling and usually he made each session last about an hour. So I approached him and asked, "Hey instead of me donating, how about if I just pay you $20 an hour for lessons?" I had no idea what kind of teacher he would be but I figured if he made his living on the road playing pool, he could read a persons game quickly. I realized I had gotten lucky when he replied, "I will give you lessons on one condition. We will go back to the basics." I thought I was ready to learn some one-pocket moves......heh heh.

One one hour lesson every week with an hour a day practicing the rest of the week. Six weeks later he was back on the road and I was well on my way to a much better pool game. The other condition of taking lessons was that I quit gambling while taking lessons. Well I made double the cost of the lessons back the first week gambling after the lessons were over.
 
No offense and don t want to start trouble:
Billiardsb is really the only game where these stories lile" an instructor has to shoot well"
Comes up so often.
I can name you countless worldclass teachers, coaches who are on the top in their buisness. So why should billiards be different than any other game or sport on the planet?

It can help....ok: but just bc some THINK it would help.


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I don't necessarily think an instructor has to play well but must be able to perform the shots or techniques that they are trying to teach.

How else is a student to know if the technique/method works?
 
IamCalvin06 said:
I don't necessarily think an instructor has to play well but must be able to perform the shots or techniques that they are trying to teach.
How else is a student to know if the technique/method works?
Click to expand...

This is tricky. I've had instructors tell me how they shoot a particular shot, but after working on it and talking to them more I've become convinced they THINK that's what they do, but they actually do something different. But this is only an occasional problem, not an indictment of instructors.

The #1 thing I look for in an instructor is clear communication. I get frustrated if the conversation gets too zen, "Be the ball, Danny!" type of advice.

-Jeff
 
My 3 Lessons

Fundamentals: Scott Lee

Straight Pool Patterns: Jim Rempe (Twice at his home)

Safety play and 9 ball: Karen Corr (Twice at Pete Fusco's)

I had a specific agenda each time and picked instructors within driving distance and people I respected!
 
I would break my needs into two sections:

Mechanics & Basic core skills. Here I would look for a qualified, certified pool instructor.

Strategies & Moves. Here I would find a great player to give me advice.

randyg
 
IamCalvin06 said:
I don't necessarily think an instructor has to play well but must be able to perform the shots or techniques that they are trying to teach.

How else is a student to know if the technique/method works?
Click to expand...

I disagree, there are many people who can explain things they cannot do.

Do you think there is a professional sports coach that can do what his players do? I don't.
 
Even though this question comes up from time to time I think it's a great question to continually revisit.

In my opinION, pool instruction is still in its infancy and I've actually grown more confused about it since my early days on this site.

What puzzles me so much about instruction when considering the instructors that participate here on AZ is that there is just about ZERO consensus on any important fundamental issue.

Here are some of the paraphrased ideas that I've picked up on from some of the more respected instructors on this forum.

Stance:
One instructor will say something like “Everybody is different so it doesn’t really matter how you stand as long as it is comfortable to you and it allows to stroke freely.”

Another will say, “Maybe your stance will be a bit uncomfortable at first but in the long run it may be beneficial to work through it.”

Getting Down Over the Cue:
“You don’t need to get your head down that low on the cue, many great players have played with a more upright stance.”

Others have said, “Getting down on the cue is a very important part of proper cueing.”

The Grip:
“You need to keep your grip hand loose.”

Others have said, “You should hold the cue more firmly.”

I could go on and on. There are differing opinions on how to transition from the backstroke to the forward stroke, when to pause and for how long. Should you lock your back leg or keep it bent? Should I drop my elbow or keep it locked?

A lot of other ideas are taught but have they really been closely studied? For instance it is pretty much accepted as gospel that when you are at the set position (with tip near the cue ball), your forearm should be as close to perpendicular to the table as possible. Is this really true? Many great players have played with a much more forward position. Mosconi and more recently Biado come to mind. Maybe we should all be a bit more choked up on the cue….who knows?

So when you are considering straight cueing, if the instructors can’t come to a consensus on any of the items I mentioned, how could you go to an instructor and be strongly convicted that what they are telling you about stroking the cue ball is actually accurate?

I'm not so sure that I can anymore. I've sort of moved into the camp that is more interested in being taught by top players not so much because I believe that you have to be a top player to teach but more so because I question a lot of the methods that are being taught.
 
I asked a few of the pro players at the derby who I should get to help me step my game up. Quite a few offered to help if we could make the timing work. Not wanting to make this sound like an advertisement but of the 7 or 8 that I talked to 5 of them said to call Mark Wilson. That was a pretty strong endorsement. Sold me on it.
 
randyg said:
I would break my needs into two sections:

Mechanics & Basic core skills. Here I would look for a qualified, certified pool instructor.

Strategies & Moves. Here I would find a great player to give me advice.

randyg
Click to expand...

+ 1 Great Advice
 
Since I'm relatively new to pool, lessons are about fundamentals.

I don't care if the instructor is a pro-player or couldn't beat a C-player. The most important thing is that the instructor be able to analyze MY fundamentals and help me improve them. I have physical limitations that prohibit me from having a pro-like stance and head-over-the-cue position that they would teach most people. The worst thing is when an instructor can't/won't recognize those limitations and just keeps telling me to do something that I can't physically do.

Also, an instructor needs to be able to communicate his thoughts to the student in a way the student can understand. That "way" is often different for every student.

I think one of the primary reasons Angelo Dundee was the all-time greatest boxing coach was because he'd never been a professional boxer. He had no preconceived notions about "do it like this (because that's the way I do it)." He analyzed every boxer's own strengths and weaknesses and built his training around the boxer.
 
I look for one thing, Improvement. If the instructor can convince me he can help me improve I am willing to listen and do the work. I do not care at all how he plays....
 
First, I looked for an available pro player. I wasn't sure what I wanted, I just knew I wanted to improve. I looked for someone who I thought could help me based on their accomplishments and that's not the way I'd go today. I didn't know any better at the time. When I got together with the pro, he went into some fundamentals that I wasn't sure I needed. Over time, some of the things he taught me I incorporated into my game. I found out later that he gave me what someone else suggested to him and not what I wanted. I approached another pro with specific details in mind and got just what I asked for, though he made a suggestion for another approach that I wish now I had taken. What I got served me well for some time. I took part in a group lesson from another pro that I wish now I had not participated in. Most of what he showed the group myself and a friend already knew. Again, I wouldn't go that way today. Along in there somewhere I got a lesson for $20.00 from a local road player that was by far the best of all. I wanted to improve a certain aspect of my game and he sure did that for me.
All in all, I took what/who was available at the time without considering going a greater distance to a known instructor. I would definitely consider going out of town, probably across several stated, if necessary. I would be looking for someone to improve my all around game and two specific disciplines, One Pocket and Straight Pool. I would consider Joe Tucker, Jerry Brieseth, Mark Wilson, Stan Shuffett, and David "Blackjack" Sapolis. They are all noted for their instructional abilities as well as their ability to play the game and play it well.
 
Pushout...All good choices, excellent teachers and friends of mine, and not taking offense, but every one of them would immediately recommend randyg or myself.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Pushout said:
First, I looked for an available pro player. I wasn't sure what I wanted, I just knew I wanted to improve. I looked for someone who I thought could help me based on their accomplishments and that's not the way I'd go today. I didn't know any better at the time. When I got together with the pro, he went into some fundamentals that I wasn't sure I needed. Over time, some of the things he taught me I incorporated into my game. I found out later that he gave me what someone else suggested to him and not what I wanted. I approached another pro with specific details in mind and got just what I asked for, though he made a suggestion for another approach that I wish now I had taken. What I got served me well for some time. I took part in a group lesson from another pro that I wish now I had not participated in. Most of what he showed the group myself and a friend already knew. Again, I wouldn't go that way today. Along in there somewhere I got a lesson for $20.00 from a local road player that was by far the best of all. I wanted to improve a certain aspect of my game and he sure did that for me.
All in all, I took what/who was available at the time without considering going a greater distance to a known instructor. I would definitely consider going out of town, probably across several stated, if necessary. I would be looking for someone to improve my all around game and two specific disciplines, One Pocket and Straight Pool. I would consider Joe Tucker, Jerry Brieseth, Mark Wilson, Stan Shuffett, and David "Blackjack" Sapolis. They are all noted for their instructional abilities as well as their ability to play the game and play it well.
Click to expand...
 
I have worked with both Joe and Stan - learned a ton from both and would recommend either.

Pushout said:
First, I looked for an available pro player. I wasn't sure what I wanted, I just knew I wanted to improve. I looked for someone who I thought could help me based on their accomplishments and that's not the way I'd go today. I didn't know any better at the time. When I got together with the pro, he went into some fundamentals that I wasn't sure I needed. Over time, some of the things he taught me I incorporated into my game. I found out later that he gave me what someone else suggested to him and not what I wanted. I approached another pro with specific details in mind and got just what I asked for, though he made a suggestion for another approach that I wish now I had taken. What I got served me well for some time. I took part in a group lesson from another pro that I wish now I had not participated in. Most of what he showed the group myself and a friend already knew. Again, I wouldn't go that way today. Along in there somewhere I got a lesson for $20.00 from a local road player that was by far the best of all. I wanted to improve a certain aspect of my game and he sure did that for me.
All in all, I took what/who was available at the time without considering going a greater distance to a known instructor. I would definitely consider going out of town, probably across several stated, if necessary. I would be looking for someone to improve my all around game and two specific disciplines, One Pocket and Straight Pool. I would consider Joe Tucker, Jerry Brieseth, Mark Wilson, Stan Shuffett, and David "Blackjack" Sapolis. They are all noted for their instructional abilities as well as their ability to play the game and play it well.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Pushout...All good choices, excellent teachers and friends of mine, and not taking offense, but every one of them would immediately recommend randyg or myself.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Ok, you want to play? You got it!


"I guess randyg and I don't make the cut, huh? Too bad, as you're missing out on the best instructor in the USA (randy)...oh, and he can play too! I can dab them a little too...even if you can't tell from that stupid video from a decade ago.

Scott Lee"

Above from a pm to me from SL.

The people I listed, except for Stan, I knew about long, long before I ever came to AZ. Jerry's accomplishments, both as a player and a teacher, were in evidence for years. Mark, I heard of both as a player and a student of Jerry. I've seen Joe Tucker play and heard about his teaching skills back when I live in NYS. Blackjack I knew before and I've talked to people he's helped. I've seen what Stan has done with Landon and Phil Burford has his mark on him also. I saw Stan play at the Open in 2011 and introduced myself and say down and talked with him a bit after he was eliminated. He did something for me that day that very, very few people in my estimation would do. What that was is nobody's business but ours. I know Stevie Moore and Brian White personally. The both have spoken very enthusiastically about Stan. In the eight years I've been on AZ I have yet to meet any body or talk to anyone I've known in the pool world for longer than I've been playing and who does not frequent AZ who has even heard of you. If your enormous ego can't handle that, too damn bad!! You've been dissed for your self-promotion more than once on AZ and I've never taken part in it but this is it, pal! Anyone you've helped, in my opinion, would have benefited just as well from any decent instructor. I've seen you argue with a guy on the Billiards Digest site about the benefits of instruction vs experience until the gave up and left. You acted like it was taking the bread out of your mouth, just as you are here. That enough?????
 
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