Players not being paid at US Open

[BeiberLvr]

It is very gracious of you to come forward and provide your thoughts on this forum. I agree with you that I would like to see the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship make it to its 40th anniversary and continue thereafter. It *is* the one championship title on American soil that is desired by every professional pool player, bar none.

As well, I know that some tournaments -- Philippines comes to mind -- have paid the palyers via checks 2 or 3 weeks after the conclusion. This is an accepted practice for some pool tournaments in how they pay the winners.

With that said, Barry, et al., never mentioned the payouts for the top 20 or so would be via check and/or post-dated check. With all the brouhaha that has plagued this event, it is only normal, I guess, for everyone to be suspicious that this is a "move." If this payout procedure was made known beforehand, no problem. But it wasn't.

It is hard to overlook his behavior when he's got a microphone in his hand. Look, I know this is his event, and he should be able to do whatever he wants, but to those who do care about Barry -- and I am one of them -- his behavior while under the influence is open to a lot of ridicule and sometimes mean-spiritedness, especially on thie forum. :sorry:

It is one thing to laugh with someone, but it is another thing to be laughing at them. I've seen it happen to those who are close to me. The sad things is they're not even aware of it at the time, but those who love them do see it. :frown:

I am with you, though, that I really do hope Barry follows through. Anyone who knows him is well aware of his passion not only for pool, but of this event. In fact, he shows up at most other high-profile tournaments. I've seen him at Derby City Classic, Super Billiards Expo, and elsewhere. He loves pool.

Today is the 21st, so the 28th is only a week away. I can't help but chuckle at Shane Van Boening. While AzB-ers are discussing these payout problems, the day after the Open, Mr. Van Boening posted a photo of himself in South Dakota catching a huge fish. Looks like he's enjoying life to the fullest after his almighty win. :grin-square:

Checks are so passé these days. Wiring money provides immediate gratification. Can you imagine going to the grocery store and writing a check for your groceries? The people behind you in line would laugh. Checks are better than nothing. I still get paid via check-in-the-mail with some clients. "Mr. Postman, look at me. You gotta letter in the pack for me."

It's sort of become an annual thing to pile on Barry around this time of the year when issues with the payouts arise, or he does his usual rambling while drunk before and after matches.

You (and usually Roberta as well) always come in and defend him.

I couldn't help but notice your take on it is much different this year. I'm curious as to why if you don't mind my asking. Personally, I'm glad you aren't defending him as much as you have in the past.

If you don't feel like answering I understand.

Thanks
Jon

 

[bdorman]

The problem is Barry's not adding his own money, he's adding future earnings once received from the current event. If Barry has such great business acumen to run his pool hall and this great event for so long, doesn't he have any money in the bank?

This is what most normal businesses do. You pay your expenses on 30-day terms, so you're paying this month's expenses with next month's revenues. Very few businesses pay cash on the barrelhead unless they're known poor credit risks.

You pay your labor the same way. The employee receives a check today for his/her work of the last 30 days.

In my business my only supplier who requires payment-on-service is the US Post Office (magazine publishing...printer is on 30 days, newsstands are on 30-60 days, and so on. But not good old USPS).

But, of course, pool isn't a normal business.

 

[Banks]

This is what most normal businesses do. You pay your expenses on 30-day terms, so you're paying this month's expenses with next month's revenues. Very few businesses pay cash on the barrelhead unless they're known poor credit risks.

You pay your labor the same way. The employee receives a check today for his/her work of the last 30 days.

In my business my only supplier who requires payment-on-service is the US Post Office (magazine publishing...printer is on 30 days, newsstands are on 30-60 days, and so on. But not good old USPS).

But, of course, pool isn't a normal business.

Some expenses are paid on 30-day terms. I do A/P and pay out about a million or more a week, occasionally double that. Labor is not paid on 30-day terms. I get direct deposit for two weeks' work, a week after those two weeks are completed. Our contracted labor is generally paid Due Upon Receipt, which takes about a week or so to arrive in their hands. Some specialty vendors require prepayment and others are Net 10th, usually with a cut-off of approximately the 25th of the previous month.

Barry's running on credit, not realizing profits. If he were cut off today, he's got nothing. He ran on empty promises(read: lies) that the money would be in a verified bank account prior to the event. That's not the case. If it was, checks could be cut immediately and be good as soon as the ink dries. That's how a real business operates. Ones that float on hot air only last as long as there's something to hold the air in. In this case, those are the players. He's had both the US Open 9b and his pool hall for years. If he can't cut a check today that's good tomorrow, nor been able to for years, that's a sign of a very serious problem.

Our own regional 8b event paid out over $110k back in March. When you were in the money and knocked out of the event, you took your paperwork up to the people in charge of checks, handed it over and got a check within about 5-15 minutes. Those checks were good right away. When I played in the APA tournament in Vegas, I was given an envelope of cash right away.

As I said, he's running on credit and that often comes to a bad end.

 

[SWRLE]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda, ain't the first time and might not be the last time players are not paid. If the players from the US Open all got together and boycotted the US Open and reached out to another promoter with a commitment to attend a similar event with a different name, then maybe a competent and honest businessman with a proven track record would step up. It really looks like it is time for another big name and trusted person in the pool world to run and establish a North American 9 ball tournament that has a different name from the US Open. It has to start with the players, the problem plagued US Open won't last if only a very few top players attend. But, as long as "Pro Players" allow them selves to be disrespected and cheated out of owed monies on a yearly basis there is no incentive to change. I encourage every one associated with the US Open to stand together and force a change for the good of the pool world.

Why would it have to have a different name? Is it assumed Barry owns the name? A search on the name at the USPTO indicates the trademark registered twenty years ago has been dead for quite awhile.

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4810:oh6g3h.1.1

 

[HouseMan]

Why would it have to have a different name? Is it assumed Barry owns the name? A search on the name at the USPTO indicates the trademark registered twenty years ago has been dead for quite awhile.

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4810:oh6g3h.1.1

Please don't start talking about trademarks and trademark expiration, you're going to unknowingly reopen the gates of hell.

 

[Mark Griffin]

US Open

The name is not available to anyone else - even if Barry did let it lapse many years ago. I'm not sure of the actual rules and regulations, but by using the name in an event, the name is defensible.

Besides that, anyone that would try to 'hijack' that name isn't very scrupulous either!

BTW, CSI has most of all the other USOpen titles.

Also, the only way this event is going to continue as it has In the past is to have Barry still involved.

He is the only one that will willingly lose the kind of money year after year. You have to give him credit for being stubborn. But he is still his own worst enemy.

Mark Griffin

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Barry could always come and work for you Mark. We know that yer a nice guy.

Maybe you can allow him to be in charge of the liquor sales.

Please don't start talking about trademarks and trademark expiration, you're going to unknowingly reopen the gates of hell.

Yes, and we also know that Cerberus is a member of AZB.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, I believe it should be a W8 BEN (not a 1099).
Eric

It's moderately complicated and it seems to have changed since I had to deal with it, but the W8 series of forms seems to be filled out by the payee (foreign player) and not the payer (promoter). It seems to be among other things how a payee would claim to be covered under a US tax treaty with his government. I think the form that the payer must deal with is the 1042 series. Both the payee and the IRS are sent 1042s and the withheld taxes must be paid within a few days of the event (or payment to the foreign individual) at a specific kind of bank.

A 1099 is only for "US persons" that have been paid, I think.

 

[Eric.]

It's moderately complicated and it seems to have changed since I had to deal with it, but the W8 series of forms seems to be filled out by the payee (foreign player) and not the payer (promoter). It seems to be among other things how a payee would claim to be covered under a US tax treaty with his government. I think the form that the payer must deal with is the 1042 series. Both the payee and the IRS are sent 1042s and the withheld taxes must be paid within a few days of the event (or payment to the foreign individual) at a specific kind of bank.

A 1099 is only for "US persons" that have been paid, I think.

Yep. 1099 for US taxpayers and W8 BEN for foreign citizens. Without a signed W8, the payor would need to withhold 30%.


Eric

 

[JAM]

It's sort of become an annual thing to pile on Barry around this time of the year when issues with the payouts arise, or he does his usual rambling while drunk before and after matches.

You (and usually Roberta as well) always come in and defend him.

I couldn't help but notice your take on it is much different this year. I'm curious as to why if you don't mind my asking. Personally, I'm glad you aren't defending him as much as you have in the past.

If you don't feel like answering I understand.

Thanks
Jon

I think what you may be remembering last year is when a few members of this forum made vulgar remarks about Barry and his daughter, which is one reason I feel she is not involved in the Open anymore, because of this forum's lewd and uncalled-for remarks. People joked about it, and others piled on. It was all fun and games for them, while someone's feelings were being hurt. :sorry:

While it is popular on AzBilliards Discussion Forum for members to pile on, tag-team, and write mean-spirited remarks when someone is being flamed, I have never been an advocate of this kind of forum behavior. And I do consider Barry Behrman a friend. :smiling-heart:

Knowing that professional pool is a no-profit endeavor in the United States when it comes to putting on tournaments, Barry is one of the last of a dying breed when it comes to American pro pool promoters. Regional tours have installed a handicapping system for pros today, unlike in the past, and in fact, some regional tours have banned pros from competing altogether. Some promoters have gone to an invitational basis for a pro event, rather than one one big pro pool tournament, for a variety of reasons. Gone are the Glass City Open, Windy City Open, Capital City Open, and other professional-caliber tournaments today. Their promoters couldn't break even. Why Barry continues his Open is because of his passion for pool, not for the money, believe it or not. :yes:

I am ashamed of American pro pool tournaments and how they are seen in the eyes of our international counterparts, i.e., International Pool Tour, Bonus Ball (even though its genesis is Canadian), and U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship when it comes to getting paid. In Europe, the pro tour normally does not pay their players for their tournament participation, but their countries do support the players in many cases. Not so in America. The majority of the American pool culture thinks American pool pros are the scum of the Earth. Efren Reyes or Earl Strickland, I'd venture to guess that 99.9 percent of America has never even heard of 'em.

Unlike "forum friends" who read untruths and flames about others, to inclue their own forum friends, and say nothing in their defense, I have taken a different stance. Even if I stand in the minority, I will not sit back and read vulgar remarks and untruths written for the sole purpose of flaming on AzBilliards Discussion Forum, especially if it pertains to my friend(s). I feel this is what happened to Barry Behrman and his family last year.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

I think what you may be remembering last year is when a few members of this forum made vulgar remarks about Barry and his daughter, which is one reason I feel she is not involved in the Open anymore, because of this forum's lewd and uncalled-for remarks. People joked about it, and others piled on. It was all fun and games for them, while someone's feelings were being hurt.

Oh come on. Do you seriously believe that is the reason why Shannon stayed away from the 2014 Open.

I don't for one second and I doubt anyone else here will either.

Maybe she is embarrassed for her Father and chooses not to be a part of it. Do you think that is a remote possibility. I know I wouldn't particularly want to be dragged into his drunken shenanigan speeches.

I am sure that Jay would have preferred to have not put on those stupid gloves and pretend to spar with Super Whiskey Man in front of everyone.

While it is popular on AzBilliards Discussion Forum for members to pile on, tag-team, and write mean-spirited remarks when someone is being flamed, I have never been an advocate of this kind of forum behavior. And I do consider Barry Behrman a friend.

Yeah, yeah. And "let he who is free from Sin cast the first stone".

In other words, when a person has stuck their hands in the same muck as we have and thrown it, then they shouldn't be the first to hand out lectures on message board behavior.

Don't be a Goody Two shoes. It doesn't look good on ya Jen.

 

[JAM]

Oh come on. Do you seriously believe that is the reason why Shannon stayed away from the 2014 Open.

I don't for one second and I doubt anyone else here will either.

Maybe she is embarrassed for her Father and chooses not to be a part of it. Do you think that is a remote possibility. I know I wouldn't particularly want to be dragged into his drunken shenanigan speeches.

I am sure that Jay would have preferred to have not put on those stupid gloves and pretend to spar with Super Whiskey Man in front of everyone.




Yeah, yeah. And "let he who is free from Sin cast the first stone".

In other words, when a person has stuck their hands in the same muck as we have and thrown it, then they shouldn't be the first to hand out lectures on message board behavior.

Don't be a Goody Two shoes. It doesn't look good on ya Jen.

I stand by my opinion, 100 percent. You're entitled to any opinion about me that you want, of course, but you really don't know me very well if you think I'm trying to be a Goody Two Shoes. In fact, if you really knew me, this opinion of yours would make you laugh out loud. :grin-square:

 

[FranCrimi]

If you're going to compare tournaments in the U.S. with other countries and continents, then you have to consider the source of the money.

Here's where bulk of the added money comes from in other continents and countries:

The government
Their Olympic Committees and Sports Federations
Live Streamed events for online betting
Retail sponsors that are 'commanded' by the government to sponsor the event. Yes, commanded.
Membership dues.
TV networks

The U.S. has none of the above and has to rely solely on free enterprise. Up to this point, the U.S. hasn't been able to sell billiards to corporate America.

The trade-off: The U.S, may be poorer but it still has integrity. It would never allow an event to be sponsored by seedy companies such as cock-fighting companies; or use junior players to live stream for online betting. We have laws against those kinds of things.

Barry is trying to meet standards for World Sanctioning that just don't exist in the U.S. He needs to let go of that idea and just run his event the best he can and with the most integrity he can by posting a reasonable and affordable prize fund. The United States will still treasure the event, regardless of whether or not the rest of the world attends.

 

[LowRight]

.....Anyone with half a brain can see every year less and less fans going through the gate...most die away because pool doesn't replenish.

At one point in a "TV" match, Earl looked into the crowd and noted how everyone was "old." I don't think there was anyone under 50 in attendance (including me).

 

[wincardona]

Or Pat could do it for free since he is making all that money off the players with his PPV and DVD sales.

I only offered that as a suggestion to possibly make a bad situation..less bad. Watchez, Accu Stats has struggled for years, I know this for a fact. I'm assuming you said what you said in a joking way..right? You should know Accu Stats isn't a lucrative business, Pat has tried really hard to keep pool relevant, and if the truth was known he would do it for free if he could afford it.

By the way, are you going to support Accu Stats and the players and buy the stream, coming Nov 6th? I hope so, i'll give you a "shout out" during the commentary.:kiss:

You know I love ya.

Bill Incardona

 

[JB Cases]

If you're going to compare tournaments in the U.S. with other countries and continents, then you have to consider the source of the money.

Here's where bulk of the added money comes from in other continents and countries:

The government
Their Olympic Committees and Sports Federations
Live Streamed events for online betting
Retail sponsors that are 'commanded' by the government to sponsor the event. Yes, commanded.
Membership dues.
TV networks

The U.S. has none of the above and has to rely solely on free enterprise. Up to this point, the U.S. hasn't been able to sell billiards to corporate America.

The trade-off: The U.S, may be poorer but it still has integrity. It would never allow an event to be sponsored by seedy companies such as cock-fighting companies; or use junior players to live stream for online betting. We have laws against those kinds of things.

Barry is trying to meet standards for World Sanctioning that just don't exist in the U.S. He needs to let go of that idea and just run his event the best he can and with the most integrity he can by posting a reasonable and affordable prize fund. The United States will still treasure the event, regardless of whether or not the rest of the world attends.

Can you elaborate on what commercial entities have been commanded by a government to sponsor an event?

I lived in China for seven years and never saw this in China or heard of it until you mentioned it.

 

[jay helfert]

Some expenses are paid on 30-day terms. I do A/P and pay out about a million or more a week, occasionally double that. Labor is not paid on 30-day terms. I get direct deposit for two weeks' work, a week after those two weeks are completed. Our contracted labor is generally paid Due Upon Receipt, which takes about a week or so to arrive in their hands. Some specialty vendors require prepayment and others are Net 10th, usually with a cut-off of approximately the 25th of the previous month.

Barry's running on credit, not realizing profits. If he were cut off today, he's got nothing. He ran on empty promises(read: lies) that the money would be in a verified bank account prior to the event. That's not the case. If it was, checks could be cut immediately and be good as soon as the ink dries. That's how a real business operates. Ones that float on hot air only last as long as there's something to hold the air in. In this case, those are the players. He's had both the US Open 9b and his pool hall for years. If he can't cut a check today that's good tomorrow, nor been able to for years, that's a sign of a very serious problem.

Our own regional 8b event paid out over $110k back in March. When you were in the money and knocked out of the event, you took your paperwork up to the people in charge of checks, handed it over and got a check within about 5-15 minutes. Those checks were good right away. When I played in the APA tournament in Vegas, I was given an envelope of cash right away.

As I said, he's running on credit and that often comes to a bad end.

I also owned several businesses, pool halls included and everything you say here is correct. I guess I'm the eternal optimist and hope for the best outcome. But it's not in my hands now.

 

[Baby Huey]

Pool needs a Benevolent Benefactor. We are in such a sad state that if one good deep pockets person stepped up to the plate and offered to put up some decent prize money then the others would (reluctantly) come along as well. I'm not talking about a sham like the IPT but a few tournaments a year that added $75K. I believe some investor will make this happen in the near future. All one has to do is look at the rise of Pool in other countries to see its popularity. Professional bowling was saved a few years back and I think pool could be saved as well. Just good old fashioned 8 ball could do the trick.

 

[FranCrimi]

Can you elaborate on what commercial entities have been commanded by a government to sponsor an event?

I lived in China for seven years and never saw this in China or heard of it until you mentioned it.

Nope. Not at liberty to say. But I stand behind my words.

 

[Eric.]

Pool needs a Benevolent Benefactor. We are in such a sad state that if one good deep pockets person stepped up to the plate and offered to put up some decent prize money then the others would (reluctantly) come along as well. I'm not talking about a sham like the IPT but a few tournaments a year that added $75K. I believe some investor will make this happen in the near future. All one has to do is look at the rise of Pool in other countries to see its popularity. Professional bowling was saved a few years back and I think pool could be saved as well. Just good old fashioned 8 ball could do the trick.

Great idea, but Paul Allen went with Bowling, instead.


Eric