Willie Mosconi's High Run
- Thread starter oceanweb
- Start date
Interesting, I read it was on an 8' table too.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/bca-pool.com/resource/resmgr/imported/BCAEquipmentSpecifications_2008.pdf
And that's why I love you Stu.
Just kidding, of course. If Pinky says it happened, that would be enough for me.
Deceased and beloved AZB poster OldHasBeen Tom Ferry) went to see the table and reported they were 5 1/2 inches and added "the most amazing thing about the run was that Mosconi never scratched."
But I've also heard a report that three different people think they own the table.
I thought it was interesting that the run -- which I think made a lot of newspapers -- was done while a protest tournament was being held by Crane and others. Or at least that's what the timing seemed like, IIRC.
The pocket size reminds me of the way they do it at snooker (and have for a long time). The pockets for a record such as high break must be certified to match official templates so the sizes are all the same. The templates are distributed by the governing body. There is no +- half an inch of tolerance.
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I am agreeing with you that the 526 as an official record does not comport with the tournament records. It is kind of a flyer that, as you say, was probably done for business reasons. I'm curious exactly how the record is listed, though. Is it called something like an "exhibition" record? In that case it would be perfectly fine. You can't compare Appleton's 200 with Mosconi's 526. It is an entirely different kind of run. Also, if it really were a 5.5 inch pocket "non-regulation" table, then to me that taints the run. There seems to be a lot of disagreement on that, though.
Don't get me started on DiMaggio! My father literally wrote a book on Joe DiMaggio. DiMag has many amazing stats that go unnoticed. How about the one that is almost as amazing as the 56 game streak, and happened that same year? He struck out 13 times that season... and nobody has ever heard that stat either. That's one strike out every 11 games! His career average was one strike out every 5 games....nearly as many career home runs as career strike outs, and no other player in history is even close.
My father wanted to pass this along to the group:
Checking out all those remarks by people about Mosconi made me think that I should chime in because I had much more of an opportunity to learn something about him because I was his guest during a series of exhibitions he made. There are just a few quotes I can recall from talking with him privately during that time. They are as follows:
1. I once practiced at least 8 hours a day for 31 years consecutively.
2. My high run wasn't 526. It was 604.
3. In response to a question as to the most important thing in learning to play pool, he said - Don't miss.
4. I am very annoyed that Minnesota Fats keeps claiming he can beat me. I have played him and he knows better.
5. Erwin Rudolph was a great player.
6. Brunswick pays me $50,000 a year just to wear this jacket.
7. Winning exhibitions is easy because the opponent knows he will be playing me quite some time in advance. He gets to thinking about it and tells his whole family, his girlfriend, etc. Then comes the match and, in the first place, he really can't beat me. But because of the wait before the match, he's so nervous he can't even play his best game. So he has no chance.
Checking out all those remarks by people about Mosconi made me think that I should chime in because I had much more of an opportunity to learn something about him because I was his guest during a series of exhibitions he made. There are just a few quotes I can recall from talking with him privately during that time. They are as follows:
1. I once practiced at least 8 hours a day for 31 years consecutively.
2. My high run wasn't 526. It was 604.
3. In response to a question as to the most important thing in learning to play pool, he said - Don't miss.
4. I am very annoyed that Minnesota Fats keeps claiming he can beat me. I have played him and he knows better.
5. Erwin Rudolph was a great player.
6. Brunswick pays me $50,000 a year just to wear this jacket.
7. Winning exhibitions is easy because the opponent knows he will be playing me quite some time in advance. He gets to thinking about it and tells his whole family, his girlfriend, etc. Then comes the match and, in the first place, he really can't beat me. But because of the wait before the match, he's so nervous he can't even play his best game. So he has no chance.
Oh, and one more anecdote (from John White):
Cisero Murphy was a really top notch player, having won the World Championship on his first try, after being the first African-American permitted to compete. During my time as a guest of Mosconi, watching some of his exhibitions in the late 1960s, he played a match with Cisero at a pool hall in Brooklyn. But it was really no contest. I'll never forget watching Cisero (from a distance of only about 10 feet away) as Mosconi proceeded to do his thing. He just kept slowly shaking his head from side to side, seemingly as if he realized that he was in way over his head.
Most of the people making posts and offering opinions about Mosconi never saw him play in person. I tell you that there is no player today that even approaches his skill. None. The speed, rhythm and fluidity of his game was unmatched. It's one thing to learn of the statistics (526 - 604, etc.), defeating Greenleaf, etc. It's another to actually see him play, as I did, from right next to the table in the first row. Every break shot took place with the cue ball and break ball in the exact same spots. Identical. And then the cue ball would burrow into the pack and there would be a nice spread of the balls. I've told this many times, but it bears repeating - - when I first saw it, I was disappointed, thinking "What's so great about this guy? He never has a hard shot?" The only break in the action would come if some accidental kiss or carom occurred and then he would walk round and round the table, looking annoyed as if the balls didn't have the right to be misbehaving. But then he would solve the problem and continue to demolish the opponent.
The bottom line here is simple - -you really had to see it to fully appreciate how great Mosconi was.
Cisero Murphy was a really top notch player, having won the World Championship on his first try, after being the first African-American permitted to compete. During my time as a guest of Mosconi, watching some of his exhibitions in the late 1960s, he played a match with Cisero at a pool hall in Brooklyn. But it was really no contest. I'll never forget watching Cisero (from a distance of only about 10 feet away) as Mosconi proceeded to do his thing. He just kept slowly shaking his head from side to side, seemingly as if he realized that he was in way over his head.
Most of the people making posts and offering opinions about Mosconi never saw him play in person. I tell you that there is no player today that even approaches his skill. None. The speed, rhythm and fluidity of his game was unmatched. It's one thing to learn of the statistics (526 - 604, etc.), defeating Greenleaf, etc. It's another to actually see him play, as I did, from right next to the table in the first row. Every break shot took place with the cue ball and break ball in the exact same spots. Identical. And then the cue ball would burrow into the pack and there would be a nice spread of the balls. I've told this many times, but it bears repeating - - when I first saw it, I was disappointed, thinking "What's so great about this guy? He never has a hard shot?" The only break in the action would come if some accidental kiss or carom occurred and then he would walk round and round the table, looking annoyed as if the balls didn't have the right to be misbehaving. But then he would solve the problem and continue to demolish the opponent.
The bottom line here is simple - -you really had to see it to fully appreciate how great Mosconi was.
When I was in Albuquerque I spent a lot of time with Jimmy Moore who ran 2nd to Mosconi a number times. Jimmy could play and we talked about a lot of pool players and Mosconi was the only one he talked about with a sense of awe. He said Willie did not play straight pool like everyone else as for the most part he did not blast into the stack to break the balls up, he would break out a few and when he broke them up he knew where they were going he left nothing to chance. He also told me Willie would play 9 ball for money but he always made people bet high as he loved to put the pressure on and he never lost. He said he watched Willie give a good player the 5 ball on a 5X10 and won every game. In Jimmy's opinion Willie was on another level much like Efren in his prime at one pocket no one had a chance. That is all you can say coming from a guy that was in the ring with him.
Just to be clear, I am reposting emails sent to me from my father, John White, who doesn't have an AZ account.
Thanks!
A little off-topic, but Stu brought up Dimaggio's 61 game hitting streak in the minor leagues. My father recently emailed me the note below, for those interested:
Re DiMaggio 61 game Minor League streak……
Here’s a weird one… I was talking with the guys where they sell my book. One of them wanted to know the name of the pitcher who pitched the no-hitter that stopped DiMaggio’s 61 game Minor League hitting streak.
I looked it up and found the rather amazing report:
Before the 1933 season, Ed Walsh (known as Young Ed because his father had been a player and was known as Big Ed) was bought by the Oakland Oaks of the Pacific Coast League where his claim to fame was stopping a young Joe DiMaggio’s minor league record 61-game hitting streak. In 1911 his father had stopped Ty Cobb’s 40-game hitting streak and in 1912 Big Ed stopped Tris Speaker’s hitting streak at 30 games. Amazing - - runs in the family, as they say.
Re DiMaggio 61 game Minor League streak……
Here’s a weird one… I was talking with the guys where they sell my book. One of them wanted to know the name of the pitcher who pitched the no-hitter that stopped DiMaggio’s 61 game Minor League hitting streak.
I looked it up and found the rather amazing report:
Before the 1933 season, Ed Walsh (known as Young Ed because his father had been a player and was known as Big Ed) was bought by the Oakland Oaks of the Pacific Coast League where his claim to fame was stopping a young Joe DiMaggio’s minor league record 61-game hitting streak. In 1911 his father had stopped Ty Cobb’s 40-game hitting streak and in 1912 Big Ed stopped Tris Speaker’s hitting streak at 30 games. Amazing - - runs in the family, as they say.
Because of Efrens exceptional and constant use of spin, I think in the long haul of running over 500 balls, his chances are not as good as someone with simpler fundamentals, like Willie. It also helps to have the Centennial blue circle cue ball, as it churns very effectively with a high cue ball due to its weight being identical to the object balls. Also, Balabuska cue design back then was geared towards forward weighted cues that could/would churn force follow shots with ease.
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Reading this post reminds me of talking to lfigueroa about Mosconi. I think it is fair to say that he feels the same way you do. It is interesting to see another person say something so similar to what lfigueroa has been telling me for years about Mosconi.
kollegedave
Mosconi was, without a doubt, the greatest, most natural, fluid player I ever saw. You'd watch him run 100 and think to yourself, "That's so easy anyone can do it." He made it look so simple, so easy. Dan's description is one of the best I've read.
Lou Figueroa
<tagging Lou as I hop into the ring>
Without a doubt - IMHO - those who have only seen Willie on TV or videos, and not
in person, have no idea how smooth his stroke was. And not just his stroke, it
was like he was floating around the table. He made running balls look like a stroll
in the park.
I used to say "Fred Astaire just WISHED he was as smooth as Mosconi".
And while I'm up on this soapbox - can we give the 'big pocket' myth a rest.
5 1/2 inches is a mis-statement<lie> based on misunderstanding. I have talked
to a very respectable 'shortstop' who played on the very table... many times. It
was exactly typical of pool hall tables of that era.
And besides, anyone who saw him, like Lou has, knows that 90% + of his shots,
he could have pocketed in 3 inch pockets - 12 inches from the OB, 10 degrees off
dead straight in, pocket speed perfect...
followed by 12 inches from the OB, 10 degrees off dead straight...
You get the idea.
Dale(who only wishes his vocabulary was good enough to think of words like 'fluid')
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Dunno If This Was Already Mentioned.....
I didn't go through all the posts and so if this has been covered, sorry to be redundant.
Wille set that record while he was barn storming around the country. along with the other 10-11 pros under contract to Brunswick, performing exhibitions. He had already performed an exhibition and had to drive a pretty good distance to reach his 2nd exhibition for the day.
One of the stipulations of Brunswick is that every touring pro under contract could never play on any pool table that was not a Brunswick manufactured pool table. When Willie arrived at the pool hall, he was already tired from playing a exhibition and then driving a long distance to reach his 2nd exhibition that day, well, let's just leave it at the circumstances weren't in Mr. Mosconi's favor. Willie declined the offer of getting something to eat or to even warm up....he got right at it......the match was an exhibition against the best local player.......the problem was the only Brunswick pool tables in the pool hall were 4x8 tables. Willie couldn't play any other larger table in the pool hall because the tables weren't Brunswick......that how and why the record got set on a 4x8 table.
Willie Mosconi......high run of 526....World's Best game of 125 points in one (1) inning, holder of 1950 national Tournament High Run of 141 Points in One (1) Inning, Holder of World's record run in Challenge Match Play......and by the way....how about World's Pocket Billiard Champion 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958......all of this was achieved on 5'x10' tables.....
Willie probably could have run 600 or 700 hundred pool balls on that old 4x8 Brunswick table back in 1954.......it had already been a long day for Willie before he ever arrived at the pool hall that day and by the time he left, he was totally exhausted....this was 1954 folks....travel on the road was a hard life even doing exhibitions for Brunswick.
Matt B.
I didn't go through all the posts and so if this has been covered, sorry to be redundant.
Wille set that record while he was barn storming around the country. along with the other 10-11 pros under contract to Brunswick, performing exhibitions. He had already performed an exhibition and had to drive a pretty good distance to reach his 2nd exhibition for the day.
One of the stipulations of Brunswick is that every touring pro under contract could never play on any pool table that was not a Brunswick manufactured pool table. When Willie arrived at the pool hall, he was already tired from playing a exhibition and then driving a long distance to reach his 2nd exhibition that day, well, let's just leave it at the circumstances weren't in Mr. Mosconi's favor. Willie declined the offer of getting something to eat or to even warm up....he got right at it......the match was an exhibition against the best local player.......the problem was the only Brunswick pool tables in the pool hall were 4x8 tables. Willie couldn't play any other larger table in the pool hall because the tables weren't Brunswick......that how and why the record got set on a 4x8 table.
Willie Mosconi......high run of 526....World's Best game of 125 points in one (1) inning, holder of 1950 national Tournament High Run of 141 Points in One (1) Inning, Holder of World's record run in Challenge Match Play......and by the way....how about World's Pocket Billiard Champion 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958......all of this was achieved on 5'x10' tables.....
Willie probably could have run 600 or 700 hundred pool balls on that old 4x8 Brunswick table back in 1954.......it had already been a long day for Willie before he ever arrived at the pool hall that day and by the time he left, he was totally exhausted....this was 1954 folks....travel on the road was a hard life even doing exhibitions for Brunswick.
Matt B.
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