Solution to Supporting Pro Pool

I was with Mark Wilson last April (Oscar D., Brandon S., Big Truck were also there). Mark had these two young, energetic guys in his office and they were hired by the APA to go over their league system and figure out how they could take their current player base of 300,000 to up over a million players. These two guys, that knew nothing about pool when they started, got the fever in trying to save pro pool as well. They actually had a pretty good grisp of the history and downfall of pro pool and pool in general. They were going to pitch to the APA that they should use part of their league money to support a pro tour, to eventually feed league players up the ladder to possibly pro status. To standardize rules of pool. Etc, etc, etc. This is what they were going to tell the APA would bolster the participation in their leagues.

I tried to tell them nicely that they had a negative percentage in chances of this happening or the APA agreeing to anything close to their dream.

That was 8 months ago. I have heard nothing of it since. I guess they got their answer.
 
Pro pool being self sustaining or being profitable with longevity is an interesting problem, I am amazed that no one has figured it out yet but maybe its just not meant to be. It seems pro pool survives basically on donations from the little sponsors who love the game and promoters too. I know the promoters either make very little, break even and possibly lose lots of money doing a pro event. I would love to see online betting support pro pool with events taking place either weekly or monthly that can be bet on but not sure how feasible it is even though its been talked about.

The money is in the leagues/amateurs which some of that money could support a pro tour but once again it would be a donation because you would be throwing lots of money at it with probably very little money coming back to you so I don't fault league owners for not taking the lions share to do so. I know it took years and a good investment to build those leagues to where they are today and its nice to see anyone make a buck legitimately with pool.

Now if pros started a league for amateurs ran by professional players and "pooled" the money to pay themselves all salaries based on rankings from each season or for working whatever city/state they live in it might be a possibility. With decent prize money for each event also there might be something there but somehow someone would get greedy and screw it all up plus there needs to be organization and egos put aside which would be a huge hurdle. I would play in a league ran by pros and promoted by them before any other and I believe most amateurs would too.

Pros are located in every state so they could go out and promote the league and win over the amateur players by showing up on league nights, bsing and giving lessons/exhibitions. They could be responsible for certain areas in each city or state and collect the monies which go to fund the tour which they get paid a salary for and also each month an event to play in to win more money. Essentially pro pool players would be employees of the league, salary plus bonuses with the tournament monies.

I could imagine amateur players playing in the finals of a national league tournament for not just prize money but for a spot on the pro tour that had a salary and you have potential to win more at each event. The pro tour would be funded by this league and pro players could make a living as I would think in the US there are 500,000 in pool leagues with something like 250-300,000 in APA alone. I envision a poster with a bunch of pool players looking sharp on it, "Pro-Am Pool League - Play with the Best" or something like that.

I am starting to ramble as it is late. Thoughts? :cool:
Why start a new league? With the APA having 250k registered members already why not join by there side. I would say 1/3 of the APA's members play at least once a week some more times than once a week. So thats roughly 83k people play weekly in the APA. If the APA were to raise there weekly fee by 1 dollar that gets set aside to run and payout a tourney for the pros. Roughly 52 weeks in the year so take out a few for the holidays (not sure if APA run on the holidays) So we will say 48 Weeks of APA during the year. Thats almost 4million dollars they have collected to run and payout for the tourney. They could run 5 or 6 tournaments a year that payout much better than any tourney running now.
 
Steve...The APA has been "talking" about reaching that elusive 1,000,000 player base since I was an LO in the early 90's. Back then they promoted that idea as a sure thing by Y2K. Now, 15 years after the deadline, they are no closer to reaching their "goal". They are still the elephant in the room among organized leagues, and they do a pretty good job at what they're best at...bringing new players into the sport. Like all leagues, there are mostly good league operators, and a few bad ones.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I was with Mark Wilson last April (Oscar D., Brandon S., Big Truck were also there). Mark had these two young, energetic guys in his office and they were hired by the APA to go over their league system and figure out how they could take their current player base of 300,000 to up over a million players. These two guys, that knew nothing about pool when they started, got the fever in trying to save pro pool as well. They actually had a pretty good grisp of the history and downfall of pro pool and pool in general. They were going to pitch to the APA that they should use part of their league money to support a pro tour, to eventually feed league players up the ladder to possibly pro status. To standardize rules of pool. Etc, etc, etc. This is what they were going to tell the APA would bolster the participation in their leagues.

I tried to tell them nicely that they had a negative percentage in chances of this happening or the APA agreeing to anything close to their dream.

That was 8 months ago. I have heard nothing of it since. I guess they got their answer.
 
Good points...,

I still think the problem is not the game, but where we play the game. Now I love a good poolroom atmosphere as much as anybody but the fact is there is just no way to get masses of spectators to go there and spectate. Every successful sporting event is fueled by spectators and admission fees first, which then brings sponsors, which then brings TV, which then brings more spectators, and on it goes. We have to promote at the very least major events in places where masses of people can get to them, in an atmosphere masses of people can enjoy. Look at what the Europeans do with Snooker, and the purses they pay the players. We could learn a lot from their model. Granted their gambling laws help instill interest, but I don't see why we couldn't do something similar within our regulations. Hell Vegas runs a line on many pro sporting events, why could pool matches not be included as well? It's the only tried and true model of successful billiards promotion there is so until we learn and adapt to something similar then pool in the USA will always be small ball.

Maybe its time to try a few events at a major mall, the Mall of the America's? It seems to work in the Asian country's to some level and in the Philippines, its about exposure, even if the crowds aren't that big, throw in some trick shots and lets see what happens?
 
Treyf123...Your numbers are off. "Roughly" 150,000 APA players play every week (30,000 teams x 5 (out of 8) players who play x 43 weeks. Your idea is sound, and has been presented more than once. Nobody seems to care about the pro players...hmmmm...I'm thinking it'll never happen. :grin-square:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So thats roughly 83k people play weekly in the APA..
 
Good points...,

Why start a new league? With the APA having 250k registered members already why not join by there side. I would say 1/3 of the APA's members play at least once a week some more times than once a week. So thats roughly 83k people play weekly in the APA. If the APA were to raise there weekly fee by 1 dollar that gets set aside to run and payout a tourney for the pros. Roughly 52 weeks in the year so take out a few for the holidays (not sure if APA run on the holidays) So we will say 48 Weeks of APA during the year. Thats almost 4million dollars they have collected to run and payout for the tourney. They could run 5 or 6 tournaments a year that payout much better than any tourney running now.

Whats in it for me? That's the base of every sales pitch, so what does the APA get for saving Pro Pool?

There are only a few Pro Players that seem to really understand the communication side of things as it relates to the public and getting them to commit to anything other then playing pool all day is questionable at best.

I like the idea, if someone could figure out the benefit to the APA and how to get the pro's to buy in..., the hand full of pro's left.
 
Treyf123...Your numbers are off. "Roughly" 150,000 APA players play every week (30,000 teams x 5 (out of 8) players who play x 43 weeks. Your idea is sound, and has been presented more than once. Nobody seems to care about the pro players...hmmmm...I'm thinking it'll never happen. :grin-square:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I was just throwing out a safe number cause i really didnt know i figured 1/3 of the registered members was a pretty safe assumption. Thanks for the info though.
So roughly 150k play weekly for 43 weeks just adding 1$ to the weekly dues would give 6.4 Mil in a pool to host and pay back in tourneys they run in a year.
 
Whats in it for me? That's the base of every sales pitch, so what does the APA get for saving Pro Pool?

There are only a few Pro Players that seem to really understand the communication side of things as it relates to the public and getting them to commit to anything other then playing pool all day is questionable at best.

I like the idea, if someone could figure out the benefit to the APA and how to get the pro's to buy in..., the hand full of pro's left.

If all the pros support one single league Whether its APA BCA TAP or any other league that league would by far be the first choice to anyone thats just began to play the game. The pros should support the league as well. Theres pros in just about every state these pros should have to travel and Make apperances on league nights help people out. Be friendly to every one. That would also make the viewership much better. I know that if i have a friend doing something that i can see online or on TV i do my best to watch it. Im sure many others do the same. Therefor if the pros made friends with the league players in there area, Then said hey im playing next week in The APA pro tourney if they turn on there CPU and watch some of his/her match then maybe we gain enough viewer ship to be on TV. Then Whichever league has supported this "tour" is then sitting on a gold mine
 
I think a great example of a similar thing would be what Tony Robles has built in New York City. He has the Predator Pro/am tour. About twice a month, they have a tournament in various poolrooms around NYC and surrounding. On Saturday they have an amateur handicapped tournament and regularly filling the field and On sunday, the top 8 left in the Am tournament come back to finish as they start a "pro" tournament, just open to anyone and even races to 7 10ball. So he's basically found a way for himself and others on his level to compete. The room adds $1000+, they get that back plus more in food/drinks over 2 days as well as a free Predator cue to sell/raffle. So the room wins, the am players win, the open/pro players win, Predator wins... everyone wins.

I would say the amateurs win the most, normally over $1000 for first place and just a couple weeks ago Thomas Rice, a 15 year old, won $2400 for first place on the predator. But the amateurs make it possible to have the pro tournament.

Is this a solution? Well, possibly... If the same format, owned by the same people with the same standards branched out across the country... could get interesting. Think about that. Especially involving the amateurs. Tony keeps a close eye on the players and their playing speed/ranking. If there were a standard across the country, the amateur players would be competing for a good amount all over and would eventually lead toward funding and supporting the pros as well. Pipe dream... but possible if we worked together.

This is without a doubt the type of plan that has the greatest chance for success.

Trick is, how to expand it in a way that ensures the integrity that Tony Robles delivers.
 
This is without a doubt the type of plan that has the greatest chance for success.

Trick is, how to expand it in a way that ensures the integrity that Tony Robles delivers.

Impossible. Everyone has their own ideas of how pool should be... and they all want to make all the money.

The pool industry is like a small town with 86 pizza shops all wondering why they can barely make rent.
 
I agree that if we do want some kind of pro tour that current pro players could be "one" way to make it happen. I think its the only way available the we can actually control and that's why we should try. Not a fan of sitting around complaining or asking people for a bunch of money while telling them what we "Could" do with it.

The American Billiard Club doesn't have the end all answer yet but we know it's a step in the right direction to form a good united base of 5-600 of America's best players and 50-100 of our proactive clubs.

We are offering amateurs the opportunity to play side by side with some of our best players at a bargain price too (2-3hrs $20 matches). Some professional players are helping and we're thankful they are.

Here's a quick up of Series 5 which will have its finals at Derby City end of January.
Gerry Williams Tailgators Ottawa (Gerry organizing at least Semi pro level player)
Roger Miller Doolers Ottawa
Stix & Stone MA (Joe Dupuis pro player organizing)
Amazin Billiards MA
Snookers RI (Myself and Ray Mac organizing, Pro players Mike Dechaine & Tom D'Alfonso competing and helping)
Ryan Lineham Bo's Billiards RI
Bo's Billiards RI
Tom Zippler Magic Cue 8
Brandon Shuff First Break VA (Pro player Brandon Shuff organizing on his own)
Mike McPherson Gate City NC (proactive room owner and 10 plyrs with heart)
Randy Hatten Press Box (Randy stepped up to form 10 at anew pool room and has added a lot of new alternatives and suggestions.
Murfreesboro Billiard Club TN (New owner looking to put club on the map :)
Robert Hall Bumpers Huntsville AL (Room owner, family man, full time job AND at least Semi Pro Player :)
Port City Billiards SC
Sharp Shooters Miami (Raymond Linares organizing pro/semi pro player, student, job, family person)
Billiard Den Dallas TX
Lags Billiards IN (Joseph Watson for the love of the game, proactive room owner)
Big Dog Billiards IA (James and Randy pool lovers and proactive owners)
Edgie Geronimo Hard Times CA (9 players at Hard Times invited this new Filipino champion to come compete with them :)))) Kudos

Now I didn't do that just for the shameless plug. I wanted people to see that it just takes 1 player with access to 1 pool table to organize a group of 10 players that is another brick towards building a professional organization. I can't believe how many aren't willing to at least try to do that. I spent the first 18 months of this pretty much begging pro level players to help build this simply by trying to get 10 locals involved. I still would like the pros to help but can tell you the people that actually love pool are doing most of the work. A lot of the higher level players simply think there's nothing in it for them and I (We) are just setting up a league to line our pockets. So far from the truth it hurts. We are just trying to create a self sustaining product for the players and for the industry. I am personally sick to my stomach that our game doesn't have a self sustaining tour in place. Not saying it has to make all the players rich but at least a tour that does not bleed the players and does come with rewards other than selling their souls. I wouldn't care if it had NO money involved. If I could compete weekly and somehow qualify for an expense free national event that was 2-3 days long every month or so I would love it.

Immediate goals of the ABC are;
64 clubs
Multiple matches streamed daily
Free Fantasy contests daily
Stat and bio page for each player
With that kind of continues content and interaction we think we'll be able to attract some good outside the industry web based sponsorship or interest.
We would also be in a gr8 position to start an amateur division that could also add to supporting a pro tour.

This should be done by the players for the pla, Game ;)

Ps for Lenny, We are playing Rotation now and most love it but I do see a time where we could change games each Series; 8B 1P 9B 14.1 10B Amro :)
 
I know next to nothing about putting on a big tourney, but I am guessing costs of the tables, the space, and putting up money to attract the players is a big factor in the cost structure.

It seems like what the Western BCA is doing with their championship the last few regional tournaments is a good one. Host an open tourney, with a bunch of added money right before the regional tournament begins. (I actually wish there was more overlap so larger audiences could be achieved, but understand the table scheduling could be tough) They added 10k last time, and are adding 17k this time. Not sure where the money comes from, but it seems like a good formula. You have a bunch of avid pool players in the area, the tables\space is already secured to support the regionals...

I am unsure of the regional schedule of the various BCA regions...but if there is variability, perhaps this kind of setup could be replicated nationwide, and some sort of tour could be integrated with it?

Just a thought, probably worth not much more than the energy expended to type this! :)
 
I think a great example of a similar thing would be what Tony Robles has built in New York City. He has the Predator Pro/am tour. About twice a month, they have a tournament in various poolrooms around NYC and surrounding. On Saturday they have an amateur handicapped tournament and regularly filling the field and On sunday, the top 8 left in the Am tournament come back to finish as they start a "pro" tournament, just open to anyone and even races to 7 10ball. So he's basically found a way for himself and others on his level to compete. The room adds $1000+, they get that back plus more in food/drinks over 2 days as well as a free Predator cue to sell/raffle. So the room wins, the am players win, the open/pro players win, Predator wins... everyone wins.

I would say the amateurs win the most, normally over $1000 for first place and just a couple weeks ago Thomas Rice, a 15 year old, won $2400 for first place on the predator. But the amateurs make it possible to have the pro tournament.

Is this a solution? Well, possibly... If the same format, owned by the same people with the same standards branched out across the country... could get interesting. Think about that. Especially involving the amateurs. Tony keeps a close eye on the players and their playing speed/ranking. If there were a standard across the country, the amateur players would be competing for a good amount all over and would eventually lead toward funding and supporting the pros as well. Pipe dream... but possible if we worked together.

THIS! I'm amazed that when people bring up what Tony is doing in NYC, it often gets ignored. Absolutely blows my mind. Oscar is doing something similar out west, I think (correct me if I'm wrong). Lenny, what if you and Scott were to put together something like this for the Southwest region? I think Corey Deuel had something going on in Florida, also.
 
I was with Mark Wilson last April (Oscar D., Brandon S., Big Truck were also there). Mark had these two young, energetic guys in his office and they were hired by the APA to go over their league system and figure out how they could take their current player base of 300,000 to up over a million players. These two guys, that knew nothing about pool when they started, got the fever in trying to save pro pool as well. They actually had a pretty good grisp of the history and downfall of pro pool and pool in general. They were going to pitch to the APA that they should use part of their league money to support a pro tour, to eventually feed league players up the ladder to possibly pro status. To standardize rules of pool. Etc, etc, etc. This is what they were going to tell the APA would bolster the participation in their leagues.

I tried to tell them nicely that they had a negative percentage in chances of this happening or the APA agreeing to anything close to their dream.

That was 8 months ago. I have heard nothing of it since. I guess they got their answer.

That's what the old Busch League [ now the APA] was supposed to do in the long run . Well the long run ended up different as " we know" [see what I did there?].
 
THIS! I'm amazed that when people bring up what Tony is doing in NYC, it often gets ignored. Absolutely blows my mind. Oscar is doing something similar out west, I think (correct me if I'm wrong). Lenny, what if you and Scott were to put together something like this for the Southwest region? I think Corey Deuel had something going on in Florida, also.

Well the key would be for everyone to form like voltron and work together. Tony has a very successful model which is easy enough to replicate but much more effective to expand.
 
This is without a doubt the type of plan that has the greatest chance for success.

Trick is, how to expand it in a way that ensures the integrity that Tony Robles delivers.

It already is happening. Oscar D's Mezz West State tour is modled after the Predator and it looks like it's off to a good start. He consulted Tony early in the process of getting it off the ground.
 
It would be great...

It already is happening. Oscar D's Mezz West State tour is modled after the Predator and it looks like it's off to a good start. He consulted Tony early in the process of getting it off the ground.

I haven't talked to Oscar about it, but I think it would be great if there could be a collaboration between these regional tours so that a national event could be held with the top players from each regional tour.

Like have a national event with 64 players, 16 from 4 regional tours get together and have an event.

Jaden
 
I haven't talked to Oscar about it, but I think it would be great if there could be a collaboration between these regional tours so that a national event could be held with the top players from each regional tour.

Like have a national event with 64 players, 16 from 4 regional tours get together and have an event.

Jaden

This has been our plan from the start. Actually had it set up for 16 regions qualifying 4 players from each. We've now moved to 64 rooms with 1 player from each because coordinating regional playoffs across the country without conflict is too tough.

The biggest problem getting 64 players to a national event is expenses of time and money that each player would incur. We addressed that by having pros playing with amateurs locally while qualifying for national events that limit their time away from home, cover their expenses and help get them to other national events like Vegas, US Open and Derby City.

With the ultimate goal being to form a self sustaining united product for the players and the industry.
 
Pros are located in every state so they could go out and promote the league and win over the amateur players by showing up on league nights, bsing and giving lessons/exhibitions.


There's the Kicker right there Lenny.
 
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