10-ball with 9-ball rules-why?
- Thread starter leto1776
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I can't help but think you still have it backwards. Call shot 10-ball has all but killed TE 10-ball. TE 10-ball was the norm for decades.
Freddie
You're right about this, Fred. I remember when they were playing 10 ball back in the Camel Tour days and it was not call shot. It didn't understand why they were playing 10 ball instead of 9 ball at the time since the game was fundamentally the same. Of course being quite young I didn't realize how much tougher that 1 ball makes the game (from the break on down). In my opinion 10 Ball didn't need to be call shot to set itself apart as a different game. Fran made an incredibly astute post as to why it was changed.
The best breakers had a bigger advantage playing 10 Ball
10 Ball has been around ever since I was very young, and gamblers used the same "Two Foul" rules. I gambled a lot with Jimmy Wetch, at one point he refused to play any more 9 Ball and wanted to change to 10 Ball. I was pleasantly surprised because this gave me an even bigger advantage. I beat him 12 games in a row and he switched back to 9 Ball.
The best breakers had a bigger advantage playing 10 Ball because it was known to be 60% more difficult to break and run, but not for players like Wade Crane (Buddy Hall couldn't beat Wade playing 10 Ball, Wade couldn't beat Buddy playing 9 Ball).
The magic rack and fast cloth changed this, and actually made it easier to break and run because you have 6 balls wired for pockets and you can control the one ball's position more naturally.
You still have to be a great breaker to enjoy this advantage, however, Shane, Johnny, and Rodney have proven it's easier. The break is the issue with 10 Ball AND 9 Ball - the only way to "fix" this is to increase the game's importance instead of the break.
10 Ball has been around ever since I was very young, and gamblers used the same "Two Foul" rules. I gambled a lot with Jimmy Wetch, at one point he refused to play any more 9 Ball and wanted to change to 10 Ball. I was pleasantly surprised because this gave me an even bigger advantage. I beat him 12 games in a row and he switched back to 9 Ball.
The best breakers had a bigger advantage playing 10 Ball because it was known to be 60% more difficult to break and run, but not for players like Wade Crane (Buddy Hall couldn't beat Wade playing 10 Ball, Wade couldn't beat Buddy playing 9 Ball).
The magic rack and fast cloth changed this, and actually made it easier to break and run because you have 6 balls wired for pockets and you can control the one ball's position more naturally.
You still have to be a great breaker to enjoy this advantage, however, Shane, Johnny, and Rodney have proven it's easier. The break is the issue with 10 Ball AND 9 Ball - the only way to "fix" this is to increase the game's importance instead of the break.
I disagree, Freddie. It seems to me it was TE 9 Ball that killed it because people preferred it to 10 Ball. Until the magic rack and the pros figuring out the soft break and cut break (along with pattern racking) 9 ball was simply the preferred game. It was faster, balls went in on the break, including the 9 ball more frequently. Call shot Ten Ball only became an attractive alternative to 9 Ball when people became frustrated with the problems in 9 Ball.
Where were all the local TE 10 Ball tournaments prior to the call shot rules for 10 Ball? There weren't any for the most part, everyone played 9 Ball. So how could call shot 10 Ball have killed kill the TE version when it was already essentially dead before call shot 10 Ball came along and gained traction on the heels of the 9 Ball rack/breaking issues.
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i think this is the issue with this discussion. Many of you weren't exposed to 10-ball until the WPA changed the rules.
Joe Tucker in New England was pushing 10-ball tournaments since the mid 90's, long before the WPA change the ruleset to Call Shot / Call Safety. Read some of the posts just prior: several people talking about no call 10-ball from days on past. 10-ball has been my preferred practice rotation game since 1990, long before call shot rules. The TAR Race to 100 were mostly (if not all) non call shot. Most if not every Derby City gambling matchups of 10-ball were non call shot. The Dominiak 10-ball Tour was non call shot to start. Kevin (Selftaut) didn't even know that the WPA had changed the rules. The Camel Pro Tour had a few 10-ball tourneys in the 90's - no call shot...
No, I understand that, but 9 Ball was by far the dominant game even before call shot rules were put in place for 10 Ball. The new attraction of 10 Ball is in response to the aforementioned problems with 9 Ball. I don't think the fact that it is call shot rules is even that significant a factor in and of itself. It's more that when people started realizing that 9 Ball was broken and they looked to ten ball as the solution it just so happened that by then the rules were call shot.
Just make them all 'call pocket/ call safe' (TE or otherwise) and stop rewarding the lessor pool player performances (piss-in pool). Why that so hard to get across to the 'below average' pool player is a mistery... Support mediocre games..(and pay the players for 'less performance') you'll get less than mediocre public interest as well as less interest from the more sophisticated pool community... Todays Pool- 9ball etc.. case in point. 'Pool' has to stand up (stand on its on) to dig its way out of the slop/break fest it has become.
imo Joe Tucker has come a long way in this process with his American Rotation. Thank you Joe T. Stop supporting BAD POOL if you want this industry to survive itself. Come on TD's where are you..??/ quit offering this crap. Try to make a positive change for pool and Pool players for that matter..There are many more 1000's of players (not playing in this weeks events both local and national) that want to NOT feel cheated out of his or her time/practice commitment on the pool table. Being subjected to this sloppiness of todays TE 9-ball type antics is simply NOT entertaining. Who really enjoys winning or loose on a fluke in ball or roll??? Otherwise ... keep watching it die out... with the serious money running to other more skilled and responsible venues. Demand better for our great sport before it ALL goes to China... just saying
R
imo Joe Tucker has come a long way in this process with his American Rotation. Thank you Joe T. Stop supporting BAD POOL if you want this industry to survive itself. Come on TD's where are you..??/ quit offering this crap. Try to make a positive change for pool and Pool players for that matter..There are many more 1000's of players (not playing in this weeks events both local and national) that want to NOT feel cheated out of his or her time/practice commitment on the pool table. Being subjected to this sloppiness of todays TE 9-ball type antics is simply NOT entertaining. Who really enjoys winning or loose on a fluke in ball or roll??? Otherwise ... keep watching it die out... with the serious money running to other more skilled and responsible venues. Demand better for our great sport before it ALL goes to China... just saying
R
But this is backwards to what you wrote. You said that TE 10-ball would kill off Call Shot 10-ball. I'm saying you're backwards. Call Shot 10-ball has killed off TE 10-ball. Especially in tournaments.
I'm not looking for reasons. TE 10-ball already existed and there were plenty of tournaments. The switch in rulesets to WPA Call Shot 10-ball has effectively killed TE 10-ball. Are you still disagreeing with this?
Freddie
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This is correct, and to add to it, TE 10 Ball was starting to become very popular internationally. The general consensus was that the players preferred TE 10 Ball over TE 9 Ball, thus diminishing the worth of global 9 Ball events. Organizers who were putting up hundreds of thousands for their global 9 Ball events were concerned that their events would be considered second tier. Many were on the verge of canceling their 9 ball events.
The new 10 ball rules were created mainly for international events and and qualifiers. There is no reason why TE 10 Ball events can't be played on local levels, as long as they don't tie into the WPA sanctioning grid.
Well, admittedly now I'm not sure. Are you saying all the events you mentioned i.e. Joe Tucker's 10 Ball tournaments, the Dominiak Tour and the Camel Tour all went from TE to call shot when the rules were changed? If this is true, I did not realize that and I see what you're saying.
What about the evolution of 9 Ball from push-out to TE? Was that in response to a change in the rules or were the rules changed in response to which game was more popular?
Thanks.
Joe Tucker was pushing 10-ball events way before Call Shot 10-ball was ever dreamed of.
The Camel Tour ended before 10-ball went to the WPA board for review. They had something like one or maybe two 10-ball tournaments a year. All Express Rules.
The Dominiak 10-ball Tour started by AZer Selftaut started life as no call. The WPA had only relatively recently changed the rules to Call Shot. Selftaut started out with TE 10-ball, but ended up modifying the rules as tournaments went on. There was early confusion on whether to follow the Predator Tour or WPA rules.
Charlie Williams' Predator Tour to the best of my memory (and I could be very wrong) had its own set of rules, trying to get past the 10-ball on the break in the lower two corners. Again, if memory serves, they started life as no call as well, but today, that tour looks more aligned with WPA rules.
Fran's last post really tells the story. I remember when Niels' Feijen's then girlfriend Kat played Sarah in the action room at Derby City, the first year in the Horseshoe. Kat couldn't understand why anyone would want to play 10-ball as a slop game while Sarah had no idea why anyone would play 10-ball as a call shot game. Sarah for sure had played more 10-ball than Kat ever did at the time.
I only hear from people like Grady that Richie Florence was an early tournament pioneer for one foul ball-in-hand. Randyg and maybe John McChesney were the ones who formalized what we know as Texas Express, which took one-foul ball-in-hand further and included no spotting of balls. Balls were spotted prior to that if you pocketed a ball illegally. Once Texas Express got adopted and the Texas tour (or McDermott tour?) became the Tour de Force (forgive the pun), other regional tours followed suit. That spelled the death of 2-shot push out, as far as I understand.
When I first learned 9-ball, I was taught it as 2-shot, but that quickly went to one-foul ball-in-hand, spot up balls.
Freddie
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It sounds like TE 9 Ball got a foothold, became more popular than 2 foul, and then the WPA subsequently followed with the TE rules to reflect how the game was now being played. I'm not familiar with WPA rules for 9 Ball prior to the current TE version. Seems the opposite of 10 Ball if the WPA rule change is indeed what initiated call shot 10 Ball to the forefront.
Interesting.
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Well....
The WPA simply adopted the main three games' rules from the BCA to start their World Standardized Ruleset: 9-ball, 14.1, 8-ball.
9-ball rules in the official BCA ruleset (the only official ruleset at the time) by 1985 at the very least had already adopted "no spotting." But, two of the influential rules writers were RandyG and Jerry Brieseth. That most likely was the major reason the "official BCA rules" were written as no spot, one foul ball-in-hand. That is, mostly Texas Express. But professional 9-ball tournaments in 1985 were still being played with spot up rules. The changeover seemed to occur right around 1987/1988 to go to what they ended up calling Pro Express rules.
The WPA simply adopted the BCA written rules for 9-ball when the WPA was formed and the new World Standardized Rules were put to paper.. Most players in the WPA era have no idea what spotting up rules were, let alone 2-shot.
The 10-ball rules remained untouched in the BCA, even though the 9-ball rules underwent small changes. Even as late as 2003 if not later, the BCA 10-ball rules had no World Standardized Rules note and the BCA 10-ball rules said that the game was played "virtually the same as Nine-ball," but still had the spot up rule, a rule that had been abandoned in 9-ball in the early to mid 80's. Not too many people on the rules committee were apparently too concerned changing the written rules of 10-ball. But, as far as I remember, throughout the 90's and early 00's, all balls stayed down (Pro Express) in every 10-ball tournament and action match I saw. In other words, players were playing it "just like 9-ball."
Once the WPA decided to add 10-ball to the World Standardized rules and make official rule changes to 10-ball, that's when the Call Shot/Call Safety came into effect. Per Fran Crimi's post, the reason was really to provide a different game and in effect, keep 9-ball alive rather than having 10-ball wipe it out.
I assume today's BCA Rulebook has the note "World Standardized Rules" under 10-ball today.
Freddie <~~~ historically speaking
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Very interesting, Freddie. Thanks. Yeah, afaik the BCA simply adopted the WPA rules for all games in their entirety. In fact, all the rules downloads (PDF files) on the BCA website have the WPA letterhead on them except, oddly enough, the 10 Ball rules. But from glancing at them they appear to be the exact same.
Now that the WPA has adapted the "World Standardized Rules" (for 10 ball- call shot/ call safe) let's the 9ball bangers and hacks keep that 9 ball (TE.. Or otherwise) out of professional Pool. Enough with the lowest of low denominator pool standards. STOP supporting bad Pool games... Show some respect for talent and skill Verses lucky rolls. If you want to see national titles/your money/time and energy pissed away on luck then keep supporting bad game STRUCTURE.. TE 9ball
Help move Pool FORWARD. Demand higher standards in tournament/action matches like the WPA has done using the World Standardized Rules... Pay for performance not slop. Its time to make the 'game' better..
Help move Pool FORWARD. Demand higher standards in tournament/action matches like the WPA has done using the World Standardized Rules... Pay for performance not slop. Its time to make the 'game' better..
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