See post #3 ....you may be on to something.
Achieving pro level technique, can risk wrist injury.
Buddy Hall "Tuck & Roll"
- Thread starter marikian
- Start date
See post #3 ....you may be on to something.
Achieving pro level technique, can risk wrist injury.
It doesn't produce extra spin or avoid deflection; it does both just the same as a straight stroke would - by hitting the CB at an angle to the shot line. Except with the added fun of a curved stroke.
Sorry, Bert 'n Earl.
pj
chgo
It does produce extra spin.
What you never hear.
It is the action on the Cue that spins the ball. It works best with a 21 oz Cue.
Otherwise straight stroke is best. Adjusting on the pocket not the ball. Speed is every thing.
Fast cloth makes this more of a babies game for this reason.
Nick
It is the action on the Cue that spins the ball. It works best with a 21 oz Cue.
Otherwise straight stroke is best. Adjusting on the pocket not the ball. Speed is every thing.
Fast cloth makes this more of a babies game for this reason.
Nick
You could easily test it and actually know something - but that's not as much fun as arguing about it here.
pj
chgo
I agree with this Chuck, particularly when it's used on firm shots. The swipe movement exaggerates swerve a little more I believe on softer shots using tuck and roll swiping to apply english.
I came across it in the first 9-ball instructional video I ever saw, and I believe it was Jim Rempe with a US woman's champ. He was big on the tuck and roll.
It's interesting to note that I've observed a lot of the top snooker pros using it in the last year or so, particularly since I got a big screen and can see more clearly. They rarely do it to the same extent, more so a touch of it, and more often with outside english as a way to apply gearing.
Judd Trump, possibly the most offensive potter in the game's history, uses it more than any other I have noticed.
It is actually quite controllable at firm speeds provided the bridge length is suitable.
Note: When I shoot it, I try to stay in line until about half way through the forward stroke, then swipe at the last minute. That's what seems to work for me and reduces the tendency to hit too much CCB offset, particularly on OE shots.
Colin
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I've done some testing with my block bridge with fixed balls and on firm shots, the swipe seemed indistinguishable from pivot with straight stroke, but it definitely needs more testing and recording of such tests to invite critical analysis and expansion on types of tests.
Colin
I used to think this, but I think it's a bit like how players using BHE tend to get more spin. They're braver to hit further off center, because they're not having to align to judge the squirt.
Few players learn to align at max offset and stroke straight though the CB using side english. This contributes to their feeling that they can get more english when they swipe to the outer offset margins.
The math doesn't work out, imho, after thinking it through after some insightful critique by PJ.
Colin
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LMAO! I guess this doesn't apply to you since you have the gift of spacial intelligence which means never having to get on the table to test anything.
Here's what you don't know and never will because you DO NOT play for large sums of money or any money since you don't gamble, you DO NOT play in tournaments, and you've NEVER been playing against someone in a pool room while the entire room was hootin' and hollerin' at every shot made.
One of the hardest parts of the game is to make a perfectly straight stroke when the nerves are jumping out of your skin and the cue feels like a foreign object in your hand. Those who have know exactly what I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, have no concept that it happens.
All you do is play or hit balls in a calm laboratory environment with friends or the solitude of your own home.
Funny things happen with the hands and fingers as you stroke and strike to make it go out of line and miss and the hands want to tuck and roll from the nerves alone but it's too late when you don't expect it.
Using tuck and roll in a controlled fashion allows you to also control the aim and strike beforehand to account for it and make the shot.
Naturally, this just went over your head like a rocket and you'll choose to come back with the Pat Johnson method of staying as an APA 4 but we all expect it.
I believe that some players simply find it easier to use Tuck & Roll on certain shots, than to force themselves to learn how to apply maximum offset and stroking straight through the cue ball, using side English, all of the time adjusting for squerve.
GREAT PLAYERS don't use TUCK & ROLL because they can't get the same result using some other method. (I seldom use it)
JoeyA
GREAT PLAYERS don't use TUCK & ROLL because they can't get the same result using some other method. (I seldom use it)
JoeyA
Bingo. To each his own, but I prefer it to a set bhe pivot. In this video I shoot a kill shot on the 7 because I didnt want to come out of the corner with inside. You can see the wrist 'tuck' right before impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2EsSfxuPn0
Ps, the shirt is 2 sizes too big, my man boobs arent THAT big...... LOL
That didn't go over my head, as it didn't quite make it through my figurative ears. Could you expand and/or re-word it to clarify the point?
Colin
You could probably reword it yourself since you've been a student and user of tuck and roll for a long time and know how to use it. Please chime in.
Maybe a better way of saying it is you control the stroke by creating tuck and roll as long as you've practiced it and know what it produces rather than have the nerves cause it and send the tip cockeyed when you are attempting a straight stroke with offset.
PJ did say something that I agree with: "It just means twisting your wrist in or out to move the tip sideways and apply sidespin.".
Tucking changes the shaft/tip orientation one way and Rolling does it the other way for either inside or outside when addressing at center ball. If you're set up with offset for English and a straight stroke (hard to do with pressure and nerves) and you inadvertently tuck or roll you'll hit the CB where you didn't set up to hit it. Does that make sense to you?
.
Again, chime in with YOUR version.
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Nice shooting Chuck!
Though the concept probably started with the wrist roll & tuck, I don't apply it this way deliberately. I just pull the back hand in or push it out, with respect to the body, which achieves the same effect in regard to applying a swipe. For all I know, my wrist may be tucking or rolling, but if so, I'm not conscious of it, and haven't filmed it to check. Something to add to my to do list.
Colin
Ok, I'm with you now, I thought that was where it was heading, but was honestly struggling with the original sentence.
I agree with you to some degree. I think it falls into a group of shot types and a group of challenges where we can't bridge where we want to, or can't get or don't have the time to set up to a more natural looking stroke.
As an example, I'm knuckled over an OB, I've spent 20 seconds spotting the line, and realize I'm undercutting slightly. It's awkward to do a bridge shift, and a total reset would be a pain and time consuming, and may get me back to the same place.... but I know a swipe to 1/2 tip OE will cinch the shot, so, if shape allows just do it. We rarely have the time during our game to improve fundamentals in setting up.
It's on the margins of second guessing, but it needs to be done at times, until one becomes a robot.
Note: When I said I agree to some degree. I meant it doesn't seem like a big reason to practice it, in case we're shooting under pressure and just need to do whatever it takes to get the ball in. There's some weight to this, along the lines of being very flexible and wide ranging in our shot and stroking knowledge.
Cheers,
Colin
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Yes, exactly. That's another time and place for tuck or roll. Go back to my previous post because I edited it after you made this one for what I think is additional clarification. My perspective has to do with neuromuscular spasms from nerves and controlling it with a conscious tuck and roll instead of an unwanted tuck and roll when least expected. I'm sure you've been in those nerve racking situations where the cue goes off in your hand.
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To me, swiping is getting confused with what I would call in motion BHE or instroke BHE or tuck & roll.
If the cue is pivoted & then stroked to hit the ball, to me, that is normal BHE.
If the cue is taken back & then re-route during the stroke to pivot & stays in or on the bridge then that, to me, is in motion, in stroke, during stroke BHE or tuck & roll.
If the cue leaves the bridge & the tip 'clears' that, to me, is swiping or swooping.
If the current language police (not you Colin) want to call during stroke BHE... swiping, then another term would need to be concocted for when the cue leaves the bridge, perhaps 'clearing english'. Personally I think swiping is fine for those that knew what it meant.
Tuck & Roll was also fine for describing changing the cue orientation during the stroke as opposed to a pre-stroke pivot.
But, I guess a new generation has to make up their own language even though some of the old stuff has been around for many decades. Either that or run some of the science guys out of town on a rail.
Please note the some in front of the science guys.
Best 2 All.
PS I have essentially 3 yrs. of physics education so I am not a non science guy. I just live rather well within an athletes body.:wink:
If the cue is pivoted & then stroked to hit the ball, to me, that is normal BHE.
If the cue is taken back & then re-route during the stroke to pivot & stays in or on the bridge then that, to me, is in motion, in stroke, during stroke BHE or tuck & roll.
If the cue leaves the bridge & the tip 'clears' that, to me, is swiping or swooping.
If the current language police (not you Colin) want to call during stroke BHE... swiping, then another term would need to be concocted for when the cue leaves the bridge, perhaps 'clearing english'. Personally I think swiping is fine for those that knew what it meant.
Tuck & Roll was also fine for describing changing the cue orientation during the stroke as opposed to a pre-stroke pivot.
But, I guess a new generation has to make up their own language even though some of the old stuff has been around for many decades. Either that or run some of the science guys out of town on a rail.
Please note the some in front of the science guys.
Best 2 All.
PS I have essentially 3 yrs. of physics education so I am not a non science guy. I just live rather well within an athletes body.:wink:
And yet I've probably tested more things than you've thought of, including this.
So instead of learning to stroke straight your solution is to stroke crooked on purpose? OK...
pj
chgo