What Causes "Shoveling?"

Zphix

Zphix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've got a teammate who "shovels" the cue as he's stroking - you can see the cue, his entire body, and his shoulder rising and falling during his practice strokes and I can't see what causes it. The only thing I could presume is that his entire arm is locked and tense so he's moving the cue with his entire arm instead of locking his shoulder and elbow and allowing his wrist to be fluid and relaxed.

I've never seen this "shoveling" or "bouncing" before and it's not a problem I've ever had so I don't know how to help him with this. If he can fix this then I think he'll jump a SL automatically because he usually aims correctly and knows where to hit a ball but this bounce is significant enough to throw off his shot line.

Thoughts?
 
There are more here far more expert than I at diagnosing stroke problems, but I'd like to toss in my two cents and see how correct it is.

I would look at his grip. If it is too tight (all four fingers wrapped tight around locked with thumb) then the moving parts of the arm/shoulder translate directly to the shaft and tip in that shoveling motion.

Observing quite a few pros up close, watching their grip hand from behind you can see their back fingers relaxed if not completely off the butt. That is the one common trait many of them share even though their stroking mechanics are all different.

His arm, shoulder, elbow can be perfect, but if the grip is too tight it will still not translate well to the tip.

Coach Lee Brett talks of how snooker players use mainly the thumb and index, middle finger, with the last two fingers coming into play on power strokes.
 
This is true. :thumbup: Even on the break a tight grip is unnecessary. A tight grip automatically initiates involvement of the shoulder joint, changing the timing and dynamic of the swing.

A relaxed cradle is a cornerstone of SPF methodology. It's not so much how you hold the cue, as much as training yourself not to squeeze the cue. Like Mosconi said, "A death grip on the butt end of the cue tends to deaden the action of the CB".

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Cardigan Kid said:
Observing quite a few pros up close, watching their grip hand from behind you can see their back fingers relaxed if not completely off the butt. That is the one common trait many of them share even though their stroking mechanics are all different.

His arm, shoulder, elbow can be perfect, but if the grip is too tight it will still not translate well to the tip.
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Scott Lee said:
This is true. :thumbup: Even on the break a tight grip is unnecessary. A tight grip automatically initiates involvement of the shoulder joint, changing the timing and dynamic of the swing.

A relaxed cradle is a cornerstone of SPF methodology. It's not so much how you hold the cue, as much as training yourself not to squeeze the cue. Like Mosconi said, "A death grip on the butt end of the cue tends to deaden the action of the CB".

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I don't like arguing with Mosconi, but I use a "firm" grip and prefer to "deaden" the action of the cue ball. I play TOI and drive the ball around the table with angles and no spin unless I need spin to get somewhere that a natural angle won't let me.

Not everyone plays the same or the same patterns. Today's fast-ass cloth and rails negate the need for a lot of spin as long as you can stay in line
 
HawaiianEye said:
I don't like arguing with Mosconi, but I use a "firm" grip and prefer to "deaden" the action of the cue ball. I play TOI and drive the ball around the table with angles and no spin unless I need spin to get somewhere that a natural angle won't let me.

Not everyone plays the same or the same patterns. Today's fast-ass cloth and rails negate the need for a lot of spin as long as you can stay in line
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IMO. There are certain things individual to players, and certain things simply governed by the physics of the game that lead to the path of proper execution..

Mosconi's statement falls into the latter category. Also important to remember is our individual skill sets vary. Differences that reflect improvement in this game can be EXTREMELY subtle.

You may be comfortable with your grip, but that doesn't necessarily mean a major improvement isn't waiting for you with some stroke modifications.

Its hard to make and be comfortable with physical changes in this game, but a very light grip with a smooth accelerating stroke is imperative to improved consistent play.

Along with limited eye movement, nothing is more important.

These days, I only play about 6 hrs a week. I need retraining on this every time I play. Once I find my stroke its night and day.
 
3andstop said:
IMO. There are certain things individual to players, and certain things simply governed by the physics of the game that lead to the path of proper execution..

Mosconi's statement falls into the latter category. Also important to remember is our individual skill sets vary. Differences that reflect improvement in this game can be EXTREMELY subtle.

You may be comfortable with your grip, but that doesn't necessarily mean a major improvement isn't waiting for you with some stroke modifications.

Its hard to make and be comfortable with physical changes in this game, but a very light grip with a smooth accelerating stroke is imperative to improved consistent play.

Along with limited eye movement, nothing is more important.

These days, I only play about 6 hrs a week. I need retraining on this every time I play. Once I find my stroke its night and day.
Click to expand...

I only play a few hours each Sunday and I can still play at an above-A level. I have played for over 50 years and used every grip in the book and then some. I know what works best for me and use it. I start with a "firm" grip and loosen it if needed. If I don't need to, I keep the firm grip.

There is no single method that fits each and every body type nor playing style. Some people have short bridges, some people use open bridges, some people stand like they are gun fighting, some people shoot sidearm....to each their own. If you play long enough, you will find what works for "you".

IMHO, if you have played several hours a week for several years and are an APA-5, or lower, then you are doing something completely wrong. I don't play league pool, but I see the players when they come in and take over the tables when league starts. I see people with $3,000 cues who I've seen playing for the last couple years and they can't run three balls in a row.

I started as a kid and by the time I was 15 I was gambling for hundreds of dollars a game and could beat anyone in the town. Pool is simple, if you are doing it right.
 
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HawaiianEye said:
I only play a few hours each Sunday and I can still play at an above-A level. I have played for over 50 years and used every grip in the book and then some. I know what works best for me and use it. I start with a "firm" grip and loosen it if needed. If I don't need to, I keep the firm grip.

There is no single method that fits each and every body type nor playing style. Some people have short bridges, some people use open bridges, some people stand like they are gun fighting, some people shoot sidearm....to each their own. If you play long enough, you will find what works for "you".

IMHO, if you have played several hours a week for several years and are an APA-5, or lower, then you are doing something completely wrong. I don't play league pool, but I see the players when they come in and take over the tables when league starts. I see people with $3,000 cues who I've seen playing for the last couple years and they can't run three balls in a row.

I started as a kid and by the time I was 15 I was gambling for hundreds of dollars a game and could beat anyone in the town. Pool is simple, if you are doing it right.
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I agree. Everyone is built different and everyone plays different. There are many ways to do things in pool. That's why there is so much arguing. Each person feels/thinks their way is the best and only way. Johnnyt
 
dawgcpa said:
Is Mike Davis shoveling? If so, sign me up....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2IUsHUP1vA
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IMHO, he has the worst-looking stroke of anybody I ever saw, and I've seen PLENTY!

Before I knew who he was, I thought he was a "banger" when I saw his first game or two he played when I was watching one of his matches.

As unorthodox as he looks, he can surely get the job done.

It proves that not everyone has to do it the same way.
 
HawaiianEye said:
IMHO, he has the worst-looking stroke of anybody I ever saw, and I've seen PLENTY!

Before I knew who he was, I thought he was a "banger" when I saw his first game or two he played when I was watching one of his matches.

As unorthodox as he looks, he can surely get the job done.

It proves that not everyone has to do it the same way.
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I thought he was a banger too at the Flamingo in the Tampa Bay area...until I was over $300 down. The hustler got hustled. Johnnyt
 
HawaiianEye said:
IMHO, he has the worst-looking stroke of anybody I ever saw, and I've seen PLENTY!

Before I knew who he was, I thought he was a "banger" when I saw his first game or two he played when I was watching one of his matches.

As unorthodox as he looks, he can surely get the job done.

It proves that not everyone has to do it the same way.
Click to expand...

Would we agree that Danny Smith has a similar stroke but not as pronounced?

I love analyzing different strokes, etc.

I used to do the same thing with golf. It is mesmerizing.
 
Zphix said:
I've got a teammate who "shovels" the cue as he's stroking - you can see the cue, his entire body, and his shoulder rising and falling during his practice strokes and I can't see what causes it.
Click to expand...

I am no expert, but if his entire body is moving then he clearly is not just using a pendulum swing as he should be doing. Unless you left out the vital information that he is in a full body cast.

The cause of that - is that he is physically moving his entire body and not concentrating on just moving his hand from the elbow down. Is it physically impossible for him to bend at just the elbow standing naturally, bent over with or without something in his hand? If you answer is No and he can do that, then he simply is not trying to keep his entire body still.
 
Zphix said:
I've got a teammate who "shovels" the cue as he's stroking - you can see the cue, his entire body, and his shoulder rising and falling during his practice strokes and I can't see what causes it. The only thing I could presume is that his entire arm is locked and tense so he's moving the cue with his entire arm instead of locking his shoulder and elbow and allowing his wrist to be fluid and relaxed.

I've never seen this "shoveling" or "bouncing" before and it's not a problem I've ever had so I don't know how to help him with this. If he can fix this then I think he'll jump a SL automatically because he usually aims correctly and knows where to hit a ball but this bounce is significant enough to throw off his shot line.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Shoveling like Mike Davis? Some people can make an unusual stroke work for them.
 
I'll get a video of him playing tonight so you guys can see but yes, it's similar to Mike Davis except my teammates head and body bounce with the rise and fall of the cue.

My guess is that his entire arm is tense and in pulling the cue back it's causing his locked arm to rise from the wrist to the shoulder and that causes his entire body to rise as well.
 
Best way to make enemies in pool and golf:

"Fix" their stroke. When they want it fixed, assuming they think it's broken, they'll ask.

There's no way to fix anything like this without breaking it first...and they'll go through weeks of frustration. Actually, they'll most likely just try it for an hour or so, and then give up, blame you, and you're the idiot.

Anyhow, just some friendly advice. If they ask, offer some advice, but be prepared to own it. If they don't ask, just shut up because they're not ready and/or it's working for them.

I just went through this. After a long hiatus, my stroke had gone to crap. I went to a lesson (first in my life). He told me what to do. It felt very awkward, but I stuck with it...shot like crap for a while. I've just started shooting well again in the last couple of weeks or so. It's a LONG road, but you have to recognize your crappiness and really want to fix it before you can make any progress. It's been over a month, and it's still not perfectly natural for me. A few days ago, I hurt my back and I went right back to crap because I couldn't concentrate on it. It hard work to fix things once they're broken.
 
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Did the instructor use video analysis to check your "broke stroke"? Did the instructor give you any structured means to measure your success at making any corrections to your routine?...any drills to practice?

I happen to disagree with your comments. I've seen many players struggle for many years simply because they knew something wasn't "right" but couldn't figure out what it was. Sometimes people have an idea of what needs 'fixing', but don't know how to fix it. A good instructor can help in all of these areas.

You can't fix what you don't know about...you can't fix what you can't measure...and you can only fix one thing at a time! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

john coloccia said:
Best way to make enemies in pool and golf:

"Fix" their stroke. When they want it fixed, assuming they think it's broken, they'll ask.

There's no way to fix anything like this without breaking it first...and they'll go through weeks of frustration. Actually, they'll most likely just try it for an hour or so, and then give up, blame you, and you're the idiot.

Anyhow, just some friendly advice. If they ask, offer some advice, but be prepared to own it. If they don't ask, just shut up because they're not ready and/or it's working for them.

I just went through this. After a long hiatus, my stroke had gone to crap. I went to a lesson (first in my life). He told me what to do. It felt very awkward, but I stuck with it...shot like crap for a while. I've just started shooting well again in the last couple of weeks or so. It's a LONG road, but you have to recognize your crappiness and really want to fix it before you can make any progress. It's been over a month, and it's still not perfectly natural for me. A few days ago, I hurt my back and I went right back to crap because I couldn't concentrate on it. It hard work to fix things once they're broken.
Click to expand...
 
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Scott Lee said:
Did the instructor use video analysis to check your "broke stroke"? Did the instructor give you any structured means to measure your success at making any corrections to your routine?...any drills to practice?

I happen to disagree with your comments. I've seen many players struggle for many years simply because they knew something wasn't "right" but couldn't figure out what it was. Sometimes people have an idea of what needs 'fixing', but don't know how to fix it. A good instructor can help in all of these areas.

You can't fix what you don't know about...you can't fix what you can't measure...and you can only fix one thing at a time! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean it anyway but sincerely, but just based on what you wrote I'm actually not sure what part you disagree with. :)
 
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