Low deflection, perhaps it isn't so great after all?

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Having spent hours upon hours working on my stroke, I have noticed several things about my shaft (Predator Z2) that are difficult to notice any other way. I'm talking about shooting straight in drawshots at various speeds on a snooker table (though I mainly use it for pool), slow rolling balls over and over again as well as shooting shots at ridiculously high speeds to find weaknesses.

I've come to the conclusion that this shaft is in fact costing me misses and matches! I should say that up until now I have been very happy with my cue/shaft combination, but having spent a lot of time with it (having used this for my main player, ever since it came out, and the Z before that) I've noticed that it's behaviour under certain conditions is less than predictable. Of course my level of play (and competition) has increased to the point where a single mistake will cost a lot more.

Slow rolls: I've noticed that, especially when tight against the cushion, playing softly, the shaft tends to bounce off the cueball rather than go through. That is in fact what it is designed to do with sidespin, but when shooting from the cushion or over a ball, it's not a good thing! You need a better stroke to avoid miscues with this shaft than with others with more endmass. I know about contact times etc, but I don't care if this is a result of pre-impact or at-impact effects. The results are there, at least for me. If you hit it perfectly, it won't matter, but with less than optimal strokes, a miscue may result! I know the downward press techniques etc, but still, you are getting this effect for free with a heavier front shaft.

Draw shots: This is where I was surprised. I videotaped myself directly from the front, shooting a hard drawshot (with the aim to scratch in the pocket behind the ball). One stroke in particular was near perfect, but the shafts behaviour was not! It was a powerful stroke in a straight line, but the shaft bent violently downwards, and was then kicked up into the air and out of my bridge (this was with light snooker balls and an open bridge), i was completely stationary with the bridgehand. While most shafts will do this to a degree, I was shocked by how violent the movement of this shaft was!

The same is true for powerful top spin shots(in reverse) but much less of a problem, especially since you don't get the rebound the same way.

The behavior of the shaft seems to be completely different with varying speeds, and even though my speed control is satisfactory (but a work in progress), I still feel that the erratic bending and bouncing of the shaft is lessening the feel and feedback. You never get the solid feeling of driving through the ball, as you would with a snooker cue for instance. Tactile feedback is important to me and others to guide our speed control. I think the erratic behavior of this and other shafts like it, is why nearly every top player I know stopped using them after a while. They changed to the 314, that has a bit more mass in the front. The speed control of the lighter z2 is just too inexact.

The lesser weight in the end is IMO decreasing the accuracy of tip placement on very slow, delicate shots, as you might need in 14.1.
If you have a difficult stretch shot over the rack, the small diameter may be helpful, but if your stance is slightly awkward, the low endmass makes the shot more difficult (accurately placing the tip when the tip is light). I find it easier to guide a heavier shaft (with more endmass) in a PERFECTLY straight and accurate line on these shots. The endmass is also impacting the balance of the cue in subtle ways.

I find that with this shaft, I need to hit certain shots with a closed bridge, that I would otherwise shoot with an open bridge (for the reasons previously mentioned). Being a snooker/pool player I don't like it.

I'm sure there will be a lot of hate from the lovers of these, and other ld-shafts, but these are merely my observations, not a physics term paper, nor a definitive work on cue playability. Also I've owned and used this shaft seemingly forever and always defended it, but I've finally realized several weaknesses.
 
Last edited:
Have you considered that your problems, or some of them, with the shaft might be the conical taper.

I learned with & played for 25 years with a 13 mm conical cue before switching to a pro taper & playing with that for about 20 years.

I rather recently went to the OB Pro which is a 11.75 conical taper much like the Z2. I don't seem to have the problems you're talking about at all & I rather often go very very low & high & at right up to the miscue point many times for all english. Since placing a coat of Blue Diamond chalk on my tips & then using Masters on top I almost NEVER miscue.

My normal bridge for above center is open & for below closed.

One thing that might be similar to what you're saying is that I have had happen a few times is that the tip seemed to ride over the top of the ball & it had gone off line & I was like what just happened & why. I blamed it on myself because it has only happened about 3 maybe 4 times.

A semi pro type in my area tried my OB Pro & he liked it better than his Z2. He said he cold move the ball better with the OB Pro.

Also what I did, that I like, is that I went to a 30" OB Pro vs the 29". Not that I found anything wrong with the 29", but I had an opportunity to get a very slightly used 30" OB Pro for less than 1/2 price.

I think that may have been too many words for not much other than a couple of thoughts.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
Straightpool,
Do you have a ~10mm snooker shaft with comparable end mass as a Z2?
Does it react the same?

Be well
 
I'd like hearing if straightpool finds a standard shaft he prefers? Maybe a "timeless timber" shaft made from great lakes wood?
 
Also what I did, that I like, is that I went to a 30" OB Pro vs the 29". Not that I found anything wrong with the 29", but I had an opportunity to get a very slightly used 30" OB Pro for less than 1/2 price.

Similar to you, I found a used 30" OB Classic + after playing with a 29" for a while. I was surprised what a difference it made! It shifted the cue weight forward and really made the cure feel better.

To the point of the thread, I have tried a few very low deflection shafts, and found some of the same issues the OP found. That's why I went with the Classic+ shaft. It is stiffer, so not as low deflection, but a more solid feel. A good compromise. It is also a 12.75mm shaft. I'm pretty happy with it!
 
I use a 314-2 FAT shaft and even though it is thicker than the other Predators, I think it "buckles" more at the end than normal shafts when you have to hit "power" shots at the edges of the cue ball. I know they are made to deflect away from the cue ball...etc....etc..., but sometimes I'm not sure that is always a good thing.
 
Having spent hours upon hours working on my stroke, I have noticed several things about my shaft (Predator Z2) that are difficult to notice any other way. I'm talking about shooting straight in drawshots at various speeds on a snooker table (though I mainly use it for pool), slow rolling balls over and over again as well as shooting shots at ridiculously high speeds to find weaknesses.

I've come to the conclusion that this shaft is in fact costing me misses and matches! I should say that up until now I have been very happy with my cue/shaft combination, but having spent a lot of time with it (having used this for my main player, ever since it came out, and the Z before that) I've noticed that it's behaviour under certain conditions is less than predictable. Of course my level of play (and competition) has increased to the point where a single mistake will cost a lot more.

Slow rolls: I've noticed that, especially when tight against the cushion, playing softly, the shaft tends to bounce off the cueball rather than go through. That is in fact what it is designed to do with sidespin, but when shooting from the cushion or over a ball, it's not a good thing! You need a better stroke to avoid miscues with this shaft than with others with more endmass. I know about contact times etc, but I don't care if this is a result of pre-impact or at-impact effects. The results are there, at least for me. If you hit it perfectly, it won't matter, but with less than optimal strokes, a miscue may result! I know the downward press techniques etc, but still, you are getting this effect for free with a heavier front shaft.

Draw shots: This is where I was surprised. I videotaped myself directly from the front, shooting a hard drawshot (with the aim to scratch in the pocket behind the ball). One stroke in particular was near perfect, but the shafts behaviour was not! It was a powerful stroke in a straight line, but the shaft bent violently downwards, and was then kicked up into the air and out of my bridge (this was with light snooker balls and an open bridge), i was completely stationary with the bridgehand. While most shafts will do this to a degree, I was shocked by how violent the movement of this shaft was!

The same is true for powerful top spin shots(in reverse) but much less of a problem, especially since you don't get the rebound the same way.

The behavior of the shaft seems to be completely different with varying speeds, and even though my speed control is satisfactory (but a work in progress), I still feel that the erratic bending and bouncing of the shaft is lessening the feel and feedback. You never get the solid feeling of driving through the ball, as you would with a snooker cue for instance. Tactile feedback is important to me and others to guide our speed control. I think the erratic behavior of this and other shafts like it, is why nearly every top player I know stopped using them after a while. They changed to the 314, that has a bit more mass in the front. The speed control of the lighter z2 is just too inexact.

The lesser weight in the end is IMO decreasing the accuracy of tip placement on very slow, delicate shots, as you might need in 14.1.
If you have a difficult stretch shot over the rack, the small diameter may be helpful, but if your stance is slightly awkward, the low endmass makes the shot more difficult (accurately placing the tip when the tip is light). I find it easier to guide a heavier shaft (with more endmass) in a PERFECTLY straight and accurate line on these shots. The endmass is also impacting the balance of the cue in subtle ways.

I find that with this shaft, I need to hit certain shots with a closed bridge, that I would otherwise shoot with an open bridge (for the reasons previously mentioned). Being a snooker/pool player I don't like it.

I'm sure there will be a lot of hate from the lovers of these, and other ld-shafts, but these are merely my observations, not a physics term paper, nor a definitive work on cue playability. Also I've owned and used this shaft seemingly forever and always defended it, but I've finally realized several weaknesses.

@srtpool99 less endmass on the cues end (tip) has nothing to do with placement of the tip at delivery/contact....thats influenced on how you set up and deliver the cue.....besides that, not to be debbie downer, but basically your entire paragraph is not consistent with current research. Your complaints of the shaft/ld remind me of what i hear many bunt strokers complain about.

I could be wrong but just thinking about your description, it sounds like your suffering from an inconsistent manner of delivery of stroke to get the tip to the CB. Do you change where you hold the cue differently from shot to shot? Do you grip firm or end up regripping during delivery? Are your grip hand knuckles tilted to ceiling or flat an level with the ground basically when you are done with shot?


I'd take a video and post it....as much as I dont like predator, it doesn't sound to me like thats the origins of the problem/s imop.....especially with you saying you "defended" the shaft for long time....i think you were "defending" the wrong thing....def interesting and would love to get to the bottom of it.:confused:

-regards,
Greyghost
 
Always said I hated LD's, except the few years I spent trying them and fell for the hype, lies and bs.

Some of your reasons are just a few.

That LDs are better or somehow help your game is - in my opinion - the
biggest myth to be introduced to the pool wold in decades.
Actually probably since forever.

Do your self and your game a favor and unplug from the world of LDs
and you will enjoy getting better. Plus you will have so much more feel
for every shot. It's such a great feeling to play with a well made solid
maple shaft and really feel what you're doing.
Then going back from solid to LD you'll really notice the muted feel of
the LDs, like f___kn' with several condoms on at the same time.
 
I use a 314-2 FAT shaft and even though it is thicker than the other Predators, I think it "buckles" more at the end than normal shafts when you have to hit "power" shots at the edges of the cue ball. I know they are made to deflect away from the cue ball...etc....etc..., but sometimes I'm not sure that is always a good thing.

buckling like that, is also not the LD part of the shaft....its the taper that gives it that spine, well plus its glue and grain orientation in the laminated shafts....same reason a meucci plays so "dodgy" and softish that long pro taper hinges more after contact.....you can have a low spine LD, or high Spine LD shafts
 
"...It was a powerful stroke in a straight line, but the shaft bent violently downwards, and was then kicked up into the air and out of my bridge (this was with light snooker balls and an open bridge), i was completely stationary with the bridgehand. While most shafts will do this to a degree, I was shocked by how violent the movement of this shaft was!..."

Could the Z2 being also more flexible than a 314 have something to do with what you describe?

Does a solid small diameter snooker cue react the same?

Be well
 
Always said I hated LD's, except the few years I spent trying them and fell for the hype, lies and bs.

Some of your reasons are just a few.

That LDs are better or somehow help your game is - in my opinion - the
biggest myth to be introduced to the pool wold in decades.
Actually probably since forever.

Do your self and your game a favor and unplug from the world of LDs
and you will enjoy getting better. Plus you will have so much more feel
for every shot. It's such a great feeling to play with a well made solid
maple shaft and really feel what you're doing.
Then going back from solid to LD you'll really notice the muted feel of
the LDs, like f___kn' with several condoms on at the same time.



you should say "production LD's"........I build my own cues as quite a few others do on here and my shafts for my personal players are LD style and DO NOT HAVE HOLLOWS.......there is no muted feel at least for me, by any means. Maybe try one that didn't have its insides dug out with an icecream scoop one day.......plenty of guys here make em without laminate, unless they all quit making pool cues the past 4 years or so....doubtful.....could swear scdiveteam does a solid LD...my memory could be messing with me though.
 
Having spent hours upon hours working on my stroke, I have noticed several things about my shaft (Predator Z2) that are difficult to notice any other way. I'm talking about shooting straight in drawshots at various speeds on a snooker table (though I mainly use it for pool), slow rolling balls over and over again as well as shooting shots at ridiculously high speeds to find weaknesses.

I've come to the conclusion that this shaft is in fact costing me misses and matches! I should say that up until now I have been very happy with my cue/shaft combination, but having spent a lot of time with it (having used this for my main player, ever since it came out, and the Z before that) I've noticed that it's behaviour under certain conditions is less than predictable. Of course my level of play (and competition) has increased to the point where a single mistake will cost a lot more.

Slow rolls: I've noticed that, especially when tight against the cushion, playing softly, the shaft tends to bounce off the cueball rather than go through. That is in fact what it is designed to do with sidespin, but when shooting from the cushion or over a ball, it's not a good thing! You need a better stroke to avoid miscues with this shaft than with others with more endmass. I know about contact times etc, but I don't care if this is a result of pre-impact or at-impact effects. The results are there, at least for me. If you hit it perfectly, it won't matter, but with less than optimal strokes, a miscue may result! I know the downward press techniques etc, but still, you are getting this effect for free with a heavier front shaft.

Draw shots: This is where I was surprised. I videotaped myself directly from the front, shooting a hard drawshot (with the aim to scratch in the pocket behind the ball). One stroke in particular was near perfect, but the shafts behaviour was not! It was a powerful stroke in a straight line, but the shaft bent violently downwards, and was then kicked up into the air and out of my bridge (this was with light snooker balls and an open bridge), i was completely stationary with the bridgehand. While most shafts will do this to a degree, I was shocked by how violent the movement of this shaft was!

The same is true for powerful top spin shots(in reverse) but much less of a problem, especially since you don't get the rebound the same way.

The behavior of the shaft seems to be completely different with varying speeds, and even though my speed control is satisfactory (but a work in progress), I still feel that the erratic bending and bouncing of the shaft is lessening the feel and feedback. You never get the solid feeling of driving through the ball, as you would with a snooker cue for instance. Tactile feedback is important to me and others to guide our speed control. I think the erratic behavior of this and other shafts like it, is why nearly every top player I know stopped using them after a while. They changed to the 314, that has a bit more mass in the front. The speed control of the lighter z2 is just too inexact.

The lesser weight in the end is IMO decreasing the accuracy of tip placement on very slow, delicate shots, as you might need in 14.1.
If you have a difficult stretch shot over the rack, the small diameter may be helpful, but if your stance is slightly awkward, the low endmass makes the shot more difficult (accurately placing the tip when the tip is light). I find it easier to guide a heavier shaft (with more endmass) in a PERFECTLY straight and accurate line on these shots. The endmass is also impacting the balance of the cue in subtle ways.

I find that with this shaft, I need to hit certain shots with a closed bridge, that I would otherwise shoot with an open bridge (for the reasons previously mentioned). Being a snooker/pool player I don't like it.

I'm sure there will be a lot of hate from the lovers of these, and other ld-shafts, but these are merely my observations, not a physics term paper, nor a definitive work on cue playability. Also I've owned and used this shaft seemingly forever and always defended it, but I've finally realized several weaknesses.

That's why I love the Tiger Pro X shaft. It has similar LD qualities as the z2 but gets through the cue ball much better. It's not hollow and the taper/construction is a little stiffer. I don't think it's quite as low squirt as the Z2 but the compromise is worth it in my opinion.

That being said, low squirt shafts are not for everyone. I know some player's games erode over time with them. My game has jumped but it's not true for everybody I know.
 
Last edited:
Magic wand ?

Looking for any shaft to be a magic wand is futility. The so called low deflection shafts never won any titles for Efren.

They are neither good or bad, but our expectations are not always met. Maybe they are like a drug and it takes us a couple of months to get hooked on one and a couple of months to get off of being used to one.
 
That's why I love the Tiger Pro X shaft. It has similar LD qualities as the z2 but gets through the cue ball much better. It's not hollow and the taper/construction is a little stiffer. I don't think it's quite as low squirt as the Z2 but the compromise is worth it in my opinion.

That being said, low squirt shafts are not for everyone. I know some player's games erode over time with them. My game has jumped but it's not true for everybody I know.

Bingo! many, say a lot dont realize the value to have some deflection in the game is a huge asset!
 
Back
Top