A little update

Straightpool_99 said:
It saddens me how people take every opportunity to drag others down into the mud, wether it be female players, amateurs who are enthusiastic about the game or others who dare to dream. What the hell is wrong with you people?
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Someone has to be the adult in the room.

What were your 2 or 3 wonderful things you accomplished that people said you can't? I'm guessing none of them were on the order of what Sam was dreaming about.

What I KNOW is that I have seen this scenario play our dozens of times on golf boards and in NOT IN SINGLE CASE was the "dream" remotely realistic nor was it ever achieved. Or even come close.

In Sam's case it was completely predictable because out of his own mouth (well, fingers) we knew he had never demonstrated any capacity to stick to something long enough to be excellent. Self-admittedly, at every turn he quit when it stopped being fun. Was his goal remotely possible? Sure, in the abstract. But was not remotely possible for someone with a history of funking it when things got hard and it stopped being fun. He deluded himself into thinking that pool was different and he had the passion for it and would stick to it, but people with that passion do not flame out 15% of the way through the (unrealistically short) time they allot for the attempt.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
1. People need to hear the truth whether they want to hear it or not. Half the problems of the world today exist solely because people want to play make believe and pretend like they don't exist instead of just dealing with the truth and being open and frank about them and just dealing with them and solving them. There is way too much stroking of people's feelings these days instead of honesty and dealing with truths and facts like it should be.

2. Don't ask a question if you aren't prepared for people to give what they believe to be honest answers. Not everybody is going to stroke your feelings and tell you what they think you want to hear instead of the truth. Some people are actually going to be honest. So if you are just looking for validation of your own opinion, or think there is a chance you may not like or be able to live with what their answers could be then you shouldn't ask the question.

3. In the case of Sam, there were two separate things going on and I think many people are confusing the two together and failing to see the separation. The first was what he could do to try to become pro level and just about the how difficult it could be and how smart that might be etc. Had Sam simply asked "what is the best approach to be the best player I can possibly be" or "best approach to become pro level if I have the talent" or even "what is the best path to reach pro level" and left it at that then he would have got some positive feel good answers and he would have received some more honest realistic answers and some advice from both sides and that would have been the end of it, just as you received.

But the second issue that was the big deal to many was Sam insisting that he could 100% be a pro level pool player in 5 years if he wanted to and that there was 0% chance he could fail. That was a dumb, naive, arrogant, inability to deal with truths and facts absolutely ridiculous belief and every last single one of us with any pool experience knows it whether we chose to be honest with him or not. That is what people had the bigger issue with and took the exception to and where things went sideways and is why he took so much flack. You didn't get the same tone of response because you didn't make the same ridiculous proclamations and then steadfastly refuse to accept any of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary that was presented to you like he did.
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Poolplaya9,
I missed this very well written response. It's hard to argue with what you're saying here especially since you see it so often on this board. I guess I was just commenting on the overall tone of the conversation but I will never be critical of someone speaking the truth....well almost never.

While I think Sam was for the most part genuine in his posting, I do shake my head at so many of the posts on here by players that "are looking for pointers", then they post a video of them running out a rack or two on a bar table. This happened just a couple of weeks ago. I took the guy at his word and offered up a couple of pointers. Pointers that he thought were absolutely ridiculous. What he really wanted was to just stroke his ego. He was actually looking for sponsors! You can't make this stuff up.

You really have to reach a pretty high level of play to truly appreciate how good those at the top are. When you can play well enough to fool some onlookers into thinking you can play with the big boys but in your heart you know that you are a mile away from actually doing that -- that's when you begin to understand how good these guys are. Until that point, it's really hard to appreciate their talent.
 
Bob Jewett said:
From Thursday, February 26th, 1998 at 10:40:09 GMT to be precise.;) And posted through a site in Italy!

I see that the first substantive response you got was from Jude Rosenstock, who is still posting. He pointed out that Jeanette Lee also started to play seriously after she turned 20.

It is a subject that keeps coming up, and a lot of late-starters wonder about what chance they have to get really, really good.

I had a student who had read about the 10,000-hour myth (see the book "The Sports Gene" for why I say "myth") and he wanted to set up a training program to see how far he could go with similar effort. He had his own table at home and had gone as far as to bring in a well-known author/instructor for a day or two and had a local coach with whom he had spent a lot of time.

I thought useful areas for us to work on together -- he was going to have to do most of the work himself, of course -- would be:
  • Measuring performance
  • Designing practice routines
  • Acquiring knowledge and fitting it into your game
Our first and only meeting was during a trip I made to the Northeast. It was pretty clear after a half-hour that he had a long, long way to go. He didn't even have standard position plays down like following two rails out of a corner using running english. I have no idea how his previous instructors/coaches spent their time, but evidently none of it involved controlling the cue ball.

I guess my main point is that this guy had no idea what level he played at. I suspect he was thinking high B/low A or some such.

There are lots of ways now to measure pool performance, and I think learning how to do that should be a first priority for anyone who wants to try the intensive training route. It lets you know how quickly you are approaching your goal. It would be really nice if there was an Instant FargoRate app.
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Yeah -- I guess Jude has been around a long time. Well at least longer than I have.

If only I had the knowledge I have now back then....

It seemed like the only pointers I could get out of anybody back then was about how to hit certain shots. You know -- put this type of English on this shot, or that type on that shot. Play safe on this shot. Bank this shot like this. On and on. Never once did anybody say anything about how to actually move the cue stick. But then again, I was pretty much like everybody else back then and figured that part would just take care of itself.

If I had been hit over the head with the truth in regards to how much work it would have taken and how I really needed to track my performance in the ways that you laid out, I probably would have done what I ended up doing anyway -- put down my cue and got to work figuring out a career.
 
BasementDweller said:
Yeah -- I guess Jude has been around a long time. Well at least longer than I have.

If only I had the knowledge I have now back then....

It seemed like the only pointers I could get out of anybody back then was about how to hit certain shots. You know -- put this type of English on this shot, or that type on that shot. Play safe on this shot. Bank this shot like this. On and on. Never once did anybody say anything about how to actually move the cue stick. But then again, I was pretty much like everybody else back then and figured that part would just take care of itself.

If I had been hit over the head with the truth in regards to how much work it would have taken and how I really needed to track my performance in the ways that you laid out, I probably would have done what I ended up doing anyway -- put down my cue and got to work figuring out a career.
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Did I say Jeanette started playing after 20? Well, let me correct myself then! I met her when we were both about 19 years old and she had been playing for years by then. Looking back now, it's hard to say how strong she was at the time. I'd say her 9-ball game was around strong B to weak A (good enough to score well in the WPBA) but I could be very wrong. Clocking her is a little tough because she was so strong at 14.1, even at 19. What I will say is, a few years later, maybe when she was about 21 or so, her game took a really big jump and it was clear she was going to emerge as a top contender.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Did I say Jeanette started playing after 20? Well, let me correct myself then! I met her when we were both about 19 years old and she had been playing for years by then. Looking back now, it's hard to say how strong she was at the time. I'd say her 9-ball game was around strong B to weak A (good enough to score well in the WPBA) but I could be very wrong. Clocking her is a little tough because she was so strong at 14.1, even at 19. What I will say is, a few years later, maybe when she was about 21 or so, her game took a really big jump and it was clear she was going to emerge as a top contender.
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Jude,
I could have chased a dream based your input alone. After failing, I would have had every right to track you down and live the remainder of my life in your basement instead of mine.

You really dodged a bullet there.
 
BasementDweller said:
Jude,
I could have chased a dream based your input alone. After failing, I would have had every right to track you down and live the remainder of my life in your basement instead of mine.

You really dodged a bullet there.
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HAHAHAHAHHAHA! YOU THINK I HAVE A BASEMENT?!?!!?!! I live in Texas now, sir. There are no basements!

You can fight for the couch but bear in mind, my two dogs called dibs and the pit bull can be a bit of a space hog.
 
Don't beat yourself up over it.
Look at Tiger Woods, he had the world on a gold plate.
People were already rewriting all the history books for golf and announcing him as the king of golf for the next 100 years , maybe forever.
The next day , he's a has been, that missed getting over the goal line by 2 feet.
I'm not a hater, or happy about it, or have any other feelings, other than amazement .
If you never play again , your nickname will always be "Flash In The Pan, Sam" for me.
Good luck in the rest of life.
 
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