SVB cheating? Shaw/SVB Derby 9 Ball

dr_dave said:
Check out the latest installment of my analysis:

NV J.3 - Shane and Dennis Were Not Totally Innocent at the Derby City Classic

Enjoy,
Dave
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Nice, you got the tilting of the rack explanation right in this one. Rarely does the table have the spotting line, so it's not so easy to catch this one in real life, so to say.

There is also the slightly forward or rear placement of the rack to consider, as well as various gaps.

There are so many ways to cheat in 9 ball, and I don't think you've even gone over half of them, but still excellent content. You've covered most of what you can get away with in a pro tournaments, though. In amateur play, some might try to get away with gettting the 9 moving with gaps etc..

I don't think for a second that the gap racking and tilting issues are unintentional. Though obviously that can never be proven.
 
Bob Jewett said:
At the 2016 US Open 9-ball, Jayson Shaw demonstrated how to leave a gap with the template rack so that the wing ball would go straight in. He did this before the tournament started so that people would know of the cheats to watch for so they could protect themselves. (It was nine on the spot at that Open).

In one of Ralf Souquet's matches, his opponent does the rack trick, breaks the wing ball in straight and fast. Ralf goes up to him, presumably tells him not to do that any more and he doesn't cheat again.

In another match, two fairly well-known US players were both cheating. One was doing the "feather the back ball" trick to make the wing ball and the other was pattern racking. Neither one complained. The pattern racker didn't know how to make a ball consistently so the other player got any benefit of the pattern. The pattern racker also got screwed because he missed Jayson's demo and didn't understand why his opponent was making the wing ball consistently.

Nine ball in the US is a farce.
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Isn't the WHOLE POINT OF THEORY TEMPLATE NOT to leave ANY gaps as in " A complete tight rack??? I thought that was supposed to be their main selling point no? So if someone can make gaps by " feathering " ( I prefer calling it fingering ) the rack why not DQ them on the spot? Neutral rackets are ideal but I get that's not realistic most of the times but my above solution is, is it not? I say most know how to do whatever , that should be u Der stood at this point. The only time you hear someone ***** is when they loose, but one round before where they won not a word. Right? I love 9 ball and don't want to see it go. Nostalgia maybe. After literally THOUSANDS of racks played in action, I have NEVER PLAYED 10 ball in action or tournament . It seems there are controversies in 10 ball too no? This may not be practical in pro tournament play, but I can say at the pool room I came up in there was almost never arguments about the racks. It was always winner break, lose rack. Often for thousands. If an issue did come up, first time usually you were warned, second time you got cracked and good. It was really never a problem, I believe soley because of this.
 
BmoreMoney said:
Isn't the WHOLE POINT OF THEORY TEMPLATE NOT to leave ANY gaps as in " A complete tight rack??? I thought that was supposed to be their main selling point no? So if someone can make gaps by " feathering " ( I prefer calling it fingering ) the rack why not DQ them on the spot? Neutral rackets are ideal but I get that's not realistic most of the times but my above solution is, is it not? I say most know how to do whatever , that should be u Der stood at this point. The only time you hear someone ***** is when they loose, but one round before where they won not a word. Right? I love 9 ball and don't want to see it go. Nostalgia maybe. After literally THOUSANDS of racks played in action, I have NEVER PLAYED 10 ball in action or tournament . It seems there are controversies in 10 ball too no? This may not be practical in pro tournament play, but I can say at the pool room I came up in there was almost never arguments about the racks. It was always winner break, lose rack. Often for thousands. If an issue did come up, first time usually you were warned, second time you got cracked and good. It was really never a problem, I believe soley because of this.
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I think the can of worms were well and truely opened with the "racking secrets" book. Now every person knows how to manipulate the rack.

Magic racks are completely possible to cheat. It gets easier and easier as they get worn. I've tried some other racks too and you can cheat all the ones I've tried. I hate cheaters, but I experimented some with this, because a friend of mine was insisting that it was impossible. Not only isn't it impossible, it's imo even easier to get controlled gaps with these kinds of racks, though I must admit it's harder to hide your cheating. I haven't practised that, obviously, but I suspect it will be very tricky to do anything other than feathering the one without someone suspecting foul play. I think with a brand new magic rack and perfect, new Aramith tournament balls will be the next thing I try, just to see if it makes a difference, as I've only used slightly worn balls and racks up until now.

I know some very good players that have played since the 80's, some from the 70's and I don't really think this knowledge was that widespread at the time, though certainly people have been slug racked since the dawn of time. I never play loser racks with these old school players, once you start running racks you can bet your life they are going to slug rack you, and don't anybody pretend this is not intentional! Some of these old schoolers have taken the slug rack and sharking and elevated it into some sort of art form.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
I think the can of worms were well and truely opened with the "racking secrets" book. Now every person knows how to manipulate the rack.

Magic racks are completely possible to cheat. It gets easier and easier as they get worn. I've tried some other racks too and you can cheat all the ones I've tried. I hate cheaters, but I experimented some with this, because a friend of mine was insisting that it was impossible. Not only isn't it impossible, it's imo even easier to get controlled gaps with these kinds of racks, though I must admit it's harder to hide your cheating. I think with a brand new magic rack and perfect, new Aramith tournament balls will be the next thing I try, just to see if it makes a difference, as I've only used slightly worn balls and racks up until now.

I know some very good players that have played since the 80's, some from the 70's and I don't really think this knowledge was that widespread at the time, though certainly people have been slug racked since the dawn of time. I never play loser racks with these old school players, once you start running racks you can bet your life they are going to slug rack you, and don't anybody pretend this is not intentional! Some of these old schoolers have taken the slug rack and sharking and elevated it into some sort of art form.
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Just as an aside; the person I talked about in another thread - Cigar Tom - he's beating and played all the big guys. He beat Earl in his prime as an example in the late 80's early 90's and countless others. While he definitely plays jam up, one thing he has going for him is his racks lol. NOBODY ever makes the 9 nor does it barely move on their breaks. The rack is completely frozen and he is not seen doing anything, including touching the balls after they have been racked. Countless people including all the top pros have inspected the racks and after 40+ years NOBODY can figure it out and he sure ain't saying nothing, just smiles and puffs his cigar lol 😊
 
TheLoneSilencer said:
I have been saying this for quite some time now especially his 10 ball break. I have spent hours testing that gap he does with the 10 ball rack and it works practically on every table. I am not saying he is the only one who does it but this fallacy of his break being the best simply because of his dedicated practice to it needs to stop.
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He breaks other people's racks pretty damn good as well.

Not saying he doesn't intentionally put gaps in his own racks, but that doesn't mean he's not a great breaker.
 
Proposal: Players alternate breaks but after each break, they flip a coin to determine who plays from the post-break position. (Ok, that would cause the rack mechanics to become coin mechanics, but a better randomizing device could be used.)
 
There are solutions in other games already. American Rotation has a good one, IMHO. Also, the Schofield solution for his tournaments seem pretty good.

I don't think the coin solution is really that great - someone might get too lucky on it.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Great video.

Has anyone ever tried simply turning the rack horizontal and putting the 1 where the current wing ball would be?
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I think that would definitely make the game tougher, especially if the rack is literally turned with the 1 moved into the side position (and not in front) with the horizontal alignment. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I think that would definitely make the game tougher, especially if the rack is literally turned with the 1 moved into the side position (and not in front) with the horizontal alignment. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
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Well there ya go!

I just solved the issue.
 
HUKIT said:
Great video Dave! Question, you mentioned the rack was off center which was very clear with a laser level but from a distance is that really noticeable?
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It is noticeable when you look closely (e.g., if you suspect foul play) or if the long string or rack outline is drawn on the table (which should probably be done on all tables).

Regards,
Dave
 
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The heck with gaps. The answer to 9 ball is the reverse slip stroke that is tuned to your nervous system. Snap the 9 every rack, as only a true gifted virtoroso maestro prodigy billiard master can do.

:groucho:
 
FYI, in the video descriptions of my recent YouTube posts (part 1, part 2), I've added links to a bunch of relevant resources so everything would be available in one place. Here are some of the things of interest:

How to Get a Tight Rack and How to Train a Table:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/break.html#tight

Pattern Racking Strategy:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/break.html#racking

Point in the DDC match where Jayson accuses Shane of cheating:
https://youtu.be/nLa8P3rOzY0?t=38m3s

Photo Jayson took of Shane's rack with his phone:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/images/Jayson_photo_of_Shane_rack.jpg

Quote from Shane in response to controversy (from Facebook):
“If anyone think I was cheating then prove it. Where is the rules stating no gaps in the rack? Or you can or can’t make a ball on the break? Anyone? Derby city rules, all it says rack your own, no pattern racking. No rules has been broken.”

Now everything is in an easy-to-find place here too.

Regards,
Dave
 
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I like Jayson and I like Shane, but this seems like absolute horseshit to claim that Shane was cheating without providing evidence that it was possible to get the balls to freeze perfectly on that table.

I've played on tables where it was impossible to get the balls anywhere close to being frozen without using a Magic Rack or tapping dents into the table.

As others have noted, they played on those very same tables during that tournament and simply could not get the balls to freeze.

So assuming that you couldn't get the balls to freeze, and you have knowledge of how the balls react when there are specific gaps in certain places, do you take advantage of that by breaking from a certain spot at a certain speed, or do you sabotage yourself by not taking advantage of what the rack is giving you?

It doesn't make any sense to do the latter.

On top of that, even with a perfectly tight rack from using a Magic Rack or any other method, it's still fairly easy to make a ball on the break consistently in 9 ball and play position on the 1 if you have a good, consistent break. Jayson does it, Shane does it, so does every other top player.

Justin Bergman made the best point IMO...the game of 9-ball is inherently flawed in both the rack and the rules which favor luck over skill, and should be completely replaced with 10 ball. Otherwise you are going to have a bunch of top players always making the wing ball, accusing the others of cheating when they lose but are perfectly happy to use the same methods when it benefits them.
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, in the video descriptions of my recent videos (part 1, part 2), I've added links to a bunch of relevant resources so everything would be available in one place. Here are some of the things of interest:

How to Get a Tight Rack and How to Train a Table:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/break.html#tight

Pattern Racking Strategy:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/break.html#racking

Point in the DDC match where Jayson accuses Shane of cheating:
https://youtu.be/nLa8P3rOzY0?t=38m3s

Photo Jayson took of Shane's rack with his phone:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/images/Jayson_photo_of_Shane_rack.jpg

Quote from Shane in response to controversy (from Facebook):
“If anyone think I was cheating then prove it. Where is the rules stating no gaps in the rack? Or you can or can’t make a ball on the break? Anyone? Derby city rules, all it says rack your own, no pattern racking. No rules has been broken.”

Now everything is in an easy-to-find place here too.

Regards,
Dave
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Thanks for all of this. I'm trying to be "beyond all reasonable doubt". Conclusion? Hell, I dunno...
 
cuetechasaurus said:
I like Jayson and I like Shane, but this seems like absolute horseshit to claim that Shane was cheating without providing evidence that it was possible to get the balls to freeze perfectly on that table.

I've played on tables where it was impossible to get the balls anywhere close to being frozen without using a Magic Rack or tapping dents into the table.

As others have noted, they played on those very same tables during that tournament and simply could not get the balls to freeze.

So assuming that you couldn't get the balls to freeze, and you have knowledge of how the balls react when there are specific gaps in certain places, do you take advantage of that by breaking from a certain spot at a certain speed, or do you sabotage yourself by not taking advantage of what the rack is giving you?

It doesn't make any sense to do the latter.

On top of that, even with a perfectly tight rack from using a Magic Rack or any other method, it's still fairly easy to make a ball on the break consistently in 9 ball and play position on the 1 if you have a good, consistent break. Jayson does it, Shane does it, so does every other top player.

Justin Bergman made the best point IMO...the game of 9-ball is inherently flawed in both the rack and the rules which favor luck over skill, and should be completely replaced with 10 ball. Otherwise you are going to have a bunch of top players always making the wing ball, accusing the others of cheating when they lose but are perfectly happy to use the same methods when it benefits them.
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One of the best responses on here.
 
dr_dave said:
I think that would definitely make the game tougher, especially if the rack is literally turned with the 1 moved into the side position (and not in front) with the horizontal alignment. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
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Actually they could move the rack so the 1 ball is in the 9 o'clock position but keep still put the one ball at the top of the rack.
So it's basically just moving the rack 90 degrees but leaving the 1 ball where the current 3 o'clock ball is.

All that being said, why not just pay referees to rack?

Are they really that stripped for cash that they can't get referees on the pro tables???
 
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