Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

sniggihs · Jan 1, 2022

Does anyone have measurements for a Rasson?!

Island Drive · Jan 1, 2022

pogmothoin said:
Does the pocket bevel angle play a factor in how the table plays?

My rails on my GC1 were done by Mark Gregory. I believe his bevels 12°. I think the closer you get to zero degrees, balls hit into the pocket facing may be more difficult to pocket. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If your ball set has not been cleaned, pocket facing angles will have a dramatic effect on whether the ball will drop or not.
I've found that 4 1/4'' pockets with new cloth and clean ball sets are allot easier than 4.5'' pockets with a worn out dirty ball set.
One room in particular taught me this.
Wetch's room in MN yrs ago, they buffed Every ball set when players brought the ball set to the counter to pay time.
When ball sets get worn from excessive Buffing they become very porous, they pick up dirt QUICKLY. Play conditions will change dramatically from start to 30 minutes later.
In this room after 45 minutes of play, you could take your thumb and wipe the ball and see a clean line & a dirt line.
Then, add in the MN humidity, the conditions are completely different than Casino a/c conditions.

kanzzo · Jan 20, 2022

I would like to have an entry for the Legends of Pocket Billiards Table, which was used for the 714 run from Jayson Shaw.
Can be corrected, if someone can provide more precise measurements. But after countless discussions over table specifications, this is what we came up with so far:

modified GC III (9 foot table)

PSF 0.88 (5 1/4 '')
PAF 0.98 (139°)
PSF 0.93 (1 1/4'')

makes for TDF of 0.80 (very easy table)

dr_dave · Jan 20, 2022

kanzzo said:
I would like to have an entry for the Legends of Pocket Billiards Table, which was used for the 714 run from Jayson Shaw.
Can be corrected, if someone can provide more precise measurements. But after countless discussions over table specifications, this is what we came up with so far:

modified GC III (9 foot table)

PSF 0.88 (5 1/4 '')
PAF 0.98 (139°)
PSF 0.93 (1 1/4'')

makes for TDF of 0.80 (very easy table)

Thank you for posting this! I've added it to the list.

dr_dave · Jan 20, 2022

Here's the latest:

Calculate your Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) to determine how tough it plays relative to other tables. Only three pocket measurements are required, and you can use the TDF calculator or TDF spreadsheet to get your results.

username - table size, pocket mouth size, mouth-throat difference, shelf depth - TDF (table description)
Side Pocket - 10', 4 1/4", 1 1/4", 2 1/4" - 1.48 (1920s Brunswick)
CaptiveBred - 10', 4 1/8", >143.5°, 1 1/2" - 1.43 (Brunswick Anniversary)
Bob Dixon - 9', 4", 145°, 1 5/8" - 1.37 (Diamond Pro)
gregcantrall - 10', 4", 5/8", 1 1/2" - 1.31 (10' Diamond)
Ricky Sy - 9', 3 3/4", 1/4", 5/8" - 1.25 (money table)
TEAM SLO - 9', 3.85", 0.6", 1.5" - 1.24 (Diamond)
acedonkeyace - 9", 4", 1/2", 2" - 1.22 (gamble table)
ChrisinNC - 10', 4 1/4", 11/16", 1 5/16" - 1.22 (Gabriel Sentinel)
8cree - 9", 4.125", 0.813", 1.562" - 1.21 (Diamond)
Bonus Ball - 9', 3 7/8", 1/8", 3/4" - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9', 4 1/8", 13/16", 1" - 1.18 (Brunswick Tournament)
chevybob20 - 9', 4 1/8", 7/8", 1" - 1.18 (Centennial)
Baxter - 9', 4 1/4", 143°, 1 1/8" - 1.18 (AMF Grand Prix)
Qaddiction - 9', 4 1/8", 3/4", 1 3/8" - 1.16 (Diamond)
angluse - 8'+, 3 13/16", 9/16", 7/8" - 1.16 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
Tom Cruise - 9', 4", 1/8", 1 3/8" - 1.15 (Golden West)
ChrisinNC - 10', 4 3/8", 11/16", 1 5/16" - 1.15 (Gabriel Sentinel)
rexus31 - 9', 4", 3/8", 1" - 1.15 (1950s AMF)
FatBoy - 9', 4", 1/4", 1" - 1.14 (GC)
TATE - 9', 4", 1/4", 7/8" - 1.14 (GC)
Mikjary - 9', 4", 9/16", 1 5/16" - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
ChrisinNC - 9', 4 1/8", 5/8", 1 1/4" - 1.13 (Gabriel Signature Pro)
rexus31 - 9', 4.125", 0.505", 1.125" - 1.12 (GC I)
Cardigan Kid - 10', 4.5", 0.88", 1.5" - 1.12 (GC)
Ralph Kramden - 9', 4 5/16", 1", 1 3/4" - 1.12 (GC I)
pocket - 9', 4 3/16", 7/16", 1 7/8" - 1.12 (unknown)
Justaneng - 8', 4", 7/8", 1 1/2" - 1.12 (Olhausen)
ShaneVanNothin - 9', 4 1/4", 1", 2" - 1.10 (Brunswick)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8", 1 1/4", 1 3/8" - 1.10 (Valley)
MahnaMahna - 10', 5 1/2", 2", 2 1/2" - 1.09 (converted from snooker table)
tjlmbklr - 8'+, 4", 141°, 1 1/4" - 1.09 (unknown)
grobbs - 9', 4 1/4", 0.625", 1.5" - 1.09 (GC II)
Cardigan Kid - 9', 4 1/4", 0.45", 1 5/16" - 1.08 (GC II)
kanzzo - 9', 4 1/4", 5/8", 1" - 1.08 (GC V)
MSchaffer - 9', 4 7/16, 15/16", 1 5/8" - 1.07 (GC II)
cigardave - 9', 4 1/2", 1", 1 3/4" - 1.07 (Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9', 4 1/4", 3/8", 1 1/4" - 1.06 (GC III)
Side Pocket - 10', 4 7/8", 1", 1 1/2" - 1.05 (1920s Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9', 4 1/4", 1/4", 15/16" - 1.05 (GC)
IbeAnEngineer - 9', 4.5", 1.0", 1.5" - 1.05 (GC I)
JC - 9', 4 7/16", 143°, 1 3/8" - 1.05 (GC III)
Banger - 9', 4 1/2", 7/8", 1 3/4" - 1.04 (GC III)
Jimmorrison - 7', 3 7/8", 7/16", 3/4" - 1.03 (Ruxton)
SloMoHolic - 9', 4 1/2", 7/8", 1 3/8" - 1.02 (Diamond Pro)
jondrums - 9', 11.9cm, 2.5cm, 4.2cm - 1.02 (Diamond Pro)
CoreyClark - 9', 5", 1", 2 1/8" - 1.02 (GC I)
bignick31985 - 9', 4 3/8", 0.475", 1.5" - 1.01 (GC IV)
"standard" table - 9', 4 7/16", 9/16", 1 5/8" - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Tennesseejoe- 9', 4.25", 1/4", 1 3/8" - 1.00 (1912 Brunswick Saratoga)
coxcol15 - 7', 4.25", 1", 1.25" - 1.00 (Valley with Ridgeback pro cuts)
Goldball - 8', 12.2cm, 4cm, 5.4cm - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9', 5", 1 1/8", 1.5" - 0.99 (Olhausen)
dr_dave - 9', 5", 1 1/8", 1 3/8" - 0.99 (GC II)
Call_me_Tom - 7', 4", 1/2", 1" - 0.99 (Valley with Penguin Pro rails)
MVPCues - 9', 4 1/2", 1/2", 1 5/8" - 0.98 (1902 Brunswick Jefferson)
oldschool1478 - 9', 4 1/2", 0.625", 1.5" - 0.98 (Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+, 4.9", 1.1", 1.8" - 0.98 (Gandy Big G)
cjr3559 - 9', 4 1/2", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.97 (GC V - Tournament)
Cardigan Kid - 9', 4 1/2", 3/4", 1 1/16" - 0.97 (GC III)
wigglybridge - 9', 4 1/2", 5/8", 1 1/2" - 0.98 (rebuilt GC)
westcoast - 7', 4", 0", 1.5" - 0.98 (Valley)
BryanB - 9', 4 1/2"0, 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick)
Poolmanis - 9', 10.9cm, 1cm, 3.1cm - 0.97 (SAM)
Vahmurka - 9', 12.5cm, 20mm, 45mm - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9', 4 11/16", 143°, 1 3/16" - 0.97 (no-name)
Will Maynard - 9', 4 3/4", 1", 3/4" - 0.97 (1904 Brunswick Narragansett)
dzcues - 9', 4 7/8", 11/16", 1 15/16" - 0.96 (Diamond)
jviss - 9’, 4.98”, 0.76”, 1.625” - 0.95 (GC I)
logical - 9', 5", 7/8", 1 3/4" - 0.95 (GC II)
dzcues - 9', 5", 15/16", 1 1/2" - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+, 5", 1 1/8", 1 3/4" - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8', 4 3/8", 3/4", 1" - 0.94 (Diamond Pro-Am)
jtaylor-996 - 8' pro, 4.5", 0.5", 1.625" - 0.93 (Diamond)
Corwyn_8 - 9', 4 3/4", 1 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9', 13.1cm, 2.2cm, 4.3cm - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9', 11.5cm, 138.7°, 3.5cm - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9', 4 7/8", 3/4", 1 1/2" - 0.91 (GC)
iusedtoberich - 9', 5 1/8", 1":, 1 1/2" - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9', 5 1/8", 3/4", 1 3/4" - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9', 5 1/8", 7/8", 1 1/2" - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9', 4 7/8", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9', 5 1/8", 7/8", 1 1/2" - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8', 4 1/2", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.87 (Connelly)
SloMoHolic - 8', 4 3/4", 3/4", 1 5/8" - 0.87 (Brunswick Medalist)
RobMan - 9', 5", 3/4", 1.5" - 0.86 (GC)
sniggihs - 7', 4 1/2", 5/8", 1 3/4" - 0.85 (Diamond)
SloMoHolic - 8'+, 4 7/8", 7/8", 1 1/4" - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist)
buckshotshoey - 8', 4 3/4", 3/4", 1 1/2" - 0.85 (American Heritage)
nateobot - 7', 4 3/8", 1/2", 1 3/4" - 0.85 (custom)
angluse - 8'+, 4 5/8", 7/16", 1 3/16" - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8', 4 3/4", 5/8", 1 3/8" - 0.84 (Connelly)
BRussell - 8', 5", 13/16", 1 1/2" - 0.83 (Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9', 13cm, 1cm, 3.5cm - 0.82 (home)
jtaylor996 - 7', 5 1/8", 146°, 1.51" - 0.82 (Legacy)
kanzzo - 9', 5 1/4", 139°, 1 1/4" - 0.80 (Legends of Pocket Billiards GC III)
Mooneye - 7', 4 7/8", 3/4", 1 5/8" - 0.79 (Brunswick Ranchero)
SloMoHolic - 6', 4 1/2", 0", 5/8" - 0.77 (Valley)
dzcues - 7', 4 1/2", 0", 1/2" - 0.77 (Valley)
dr_dave - 7', 4 1/2", 0", 3/4" - 0.77 (Valley)

jtaylor996 · Jan 20, 2022

kanzzo said:
I would like to have an entry for the Legends of Pocket Billiards Table, which was used for the 714 run from Jayson Shaw.
Can be corrected, if someone can provide more precise measurements. But after countless discussions over table specifications, this is what we came up with so far:

modified GC III (9 foot table)

PSF 0.88 (5 1/4 '')
PAF 0.98 (139°)
PSF 0.93 (1 1/4'')

makes for TDF of 0.80 (very easy table)

I really think this should wait for a better measurement. I have a feeling the guys with this table are just holding out on real measurements to make fools on AZB show themselves. I agree the table is less than .9, but I have a feeling it's not as bad as the picture shows.

Jedco · Jan 20, 2022

I've measured my 9' Gold Crown I which has 4 3/4" pockets with a 4" throat, a 140 degree facing angle, 1 1/4" shelf depth. According to the calculations I believe the numbers are as follows:

TSF = 1.00
PSF = 0.91
PAF = 1.00
PLF = 1.00

TDF = 0.91

Which would make my entry look like the following:
Jedco - 9', 4 3/4", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.91 (GC I)

I believe my calculations for the various factors are correct, but I had a problem using the spreadsheet, which kept giving an error saying I didn't need to put in the facing angle if I already had the throat size entered, and vice versa (even though I only entered one value at a time).

dr_dave · Jan 20, 2022

Jedco said:
I've measured my 9' Gold Crown I which has 4 3/4" pockets with a 4" throat, a 140 degree facing angle, 1 1/4" shelf depth. According to the calculations I believe the numbers are as follows:

TSF = 1.00
PSF = 0.91
PAF = 1.00
PLF = 1.00

TDF = 0.91

Which would make my entry look like the following:
Jedco - 9', 4 3/4", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.91 (GC I)

I believe my calculations for the various factors are correct, but I had a problem using the spreadsheet, which kept giving an error saying I didn't need to put in the facing angle if I already had the throat size entered, and vice versa (even though I only entered one value at a time).

Thank you for submitting and putting it in the final format for me. I've added it to the list.

In the spreadsheet, you are not allowed to enter both the throat size and facing angle. You only need one for the PAF.

dr_dave · Jan 20, 2022

Here's the latest:

Calculate your Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) to determine how tough it plays relative to other tables. Only three pocket measurements are required, and you can use the TDF calculator or TDF spreadsheet to get your results.

username - table size, pocket mouth size, mouth-throat difference, shelf depth - TDF (table description)
Side Pocket - 10', 4 1/4", 1 1/4", 2 1/4" - 1.48 (1920s Brunswick)
CaptiveBred - 10', 4 1/8", >143.5°, 1 1/2" - 1.43 (Brunswick Anniversary)
Bob Dixon - 9', 4", 145°, 1 5/8" - 1.37 (Diamond Pro)
gregcantrall - 10', 4", 5/8", 1 1/2" - 1.31 (10' Diamond)
Ricky Sy - 9', 3 3/4", 1/4", 5/8" - 1.25 (money table)
TEAM SLO - 9', 3.85", 0.6", 1.5" - 1.24 (Diamond)
acedonkeyace - 9", 4", 1/2", 2" - 1.22 (gamble table)
ChrisinNC - 10', 4 1/4", 11/16", 1 5/16" - 1.22 (Gabriel Sentinel)
8cree - 9", 4.125", 0.813", 1.562" - 1.21 (Diamond)
Bonus Ball - 9', 3 7/8", 1/8", 3/4" - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9', 4 1/8", 13/16", 1" - 1.18 (Brunswick Tournament)
chevybob20 - 9', 4 1/8", 7/8", 1" - 1.18 (Centennial)
Baxter - 9', 4 1/4", 143°, 1 1/8" - 1.18 (AMF Grand Prix)
Qaddiction - 9', 4 1/8", 3/4", 1 3/8" - 1.16 (Diamond)
angluse - 8'+, 3 13/16", 9/16", 7/8" - 1.16 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
Tom Cruise - 9', 4", 1/8", 1 3/8" - 1.15 (Golden West)
ChrisinNC - 10', 4 3/8", 11/16", 1 5/16" - 1.15 (Gabriel Sentinel)
rexus31 - 9', 4", 3/8", 1" - 1.15 (1950s AMF)
FatBoy - 9', 4", 1/4", 1" - 1.14 (GC)
TATE - 9', 4", 1/4", 7/8" - 1.14 (GC)
Mikjary - 9', 4", 9/16", 1 5/16" - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
ChrisinNC - 9', 4 1/8", 5/8", 1 1/4" - 1.13 (Gabriel Signature Pro)
rexus31 - 9', 4.125", 0.505", 1.125" - 1.12 (GC I)
Cardigan Kid - 10', 4.5", 0.88", 1.5" - 1.12 (GC)
Ralph Kramden - 9', 4 5/16", 1", 1 3/4" - 1.12 (GC I)
pocket - 9', 4 3/16", 7/16", 1 7/8" - 1.12 (unknown)
Justaneng - 8', 4", 7/8", 1 1/2" - 1.12 (Olhausen)
ShaneVanNothin - 9', 4 1/4", 1", 2" - 1.10 (Brunswick)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8", 1 1/4", 1 3/8" - 1.10 (Valley)
MahnaMahna - 10', 5 1/2", 2", 2 1/2" - 1.09 (converted from snooker table)
tjlmbklr - 8'+, 4", 141°, 1 1/4" - 1.09 (unknown)
grobbs - 9', 4 1/4", 0.625", 1.5" - 1.09 (GC II)
Cardigan Kid - 9', 4 1/4", 0.45", 1 5/16" - 1.08 (GC II)
kanzzo - 9', 4 1/4", 5/8", 1" - 1.08 (GC V)
MSchaffer - 9', 4 7/16, 15/16", 1 5/8" - 1.07 (GC II)
cigardave - 9', 4 1/2", 1", 1 3/4" - 1.07 (Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9', 4 1/4", 3/8", 1 1/4" - 1.06 (GC III)
Side Pocket - 10', 4 7/8", 1", 1 1/2" - 1.05 (1920s Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9', 4 1/4", 1/4", 15/16" - 1.05 (GC)
IbeAnEngineer - 9', 4.5", 1.0", 1.5" - 1.05 (GC I)
JC - 9', 4 7/16", 143°, 1 3/8" - 1.05 (GC III)
Banger - 9', 4 1/2", 7/8", 1 3/4" - 1.04 (GC III)
Jimmorrison - 7', 3 7/8", 7/16", 3/4" - 1.03 (Ruxton)
SloMoHolic - 9', 4 1/2", 7/8", 1 3/8" - 1.02 (Diamond Pro)
jondrums - 9', 11.9cm, 2.5cm, 4.2cm - 1.02 (Diamond Pro)
CoreyClark - 9', 5", 1", 2 1/8" - 1.02 (GC I)
bignick31985 - 9', 4 3/8", 0.475", 1.5" - 1.01 (GC IV)
"standard" table - 9', 4 7/16", 9/16", 1 5/8" - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Tennesseejoe- 9', 4.25", 1/4", 1 3/8" - 1.00 (1912 Brunswick Saratoga)
coxcol15 - 7', 4.25", 1", 1.25" - 1.00 (Valley with Ridgeback pro cuts)
Goldball - 8', 12.2cm, 4cm, 5.4cm - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9', 5", 1 1/8", 1.5" - 0.99 (Olhausen)
dr_dave - 9', 5", 1 1/8", 1 3/8" - 0.99 (GC II)
Call_me_Tom - 7', 4", 1/2", 1" - 0.99 (Valley with Penguin Pro rails)
MVPCues - 9', 4 1/2", 1/2", 1 5/8" - 0.98 (1902 Brunswick Jefferson)
oldschool1478 - 9', 4 1/2", 0.625", 1.5" - 0.98 (Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+, 4.9", 1.1", 1.8" - 0.98 (Gandy Big G)
cjr3559 - 9', 4 1/2", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.97 (GC V - Tournament)
Cardigan Kid - 9', 4 1/2", 3/4", 1 1/16" - 0.97 (GC III)
wigglybridge - 9', 4 1/2", 5/8", 1 1/2" - 0.98 (rebuilt GC)
westcoast - 7', 4", 0", 1.5" - 0.98 (Valley)
BryanB - 9', 4 1/2"0, 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick)
Poolmanis - 9', 10.9cm, 1cm, 3.1cm - 0.97 (SAM)
Vahmurka - 9', 12.5cm, 20mm, 45mm - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9', 4 11/16", 143°, 1 3/16" - 0.97 (no-name)
Will Maynard - 9', 4 3/4", 1", 3/4" - 0.97 (1904 Brunswick Narragansett)
dzcues - 9', 4 7/8", 11/16", 1 15/16" - 0.96 (Diamond)
jviss - 9’, 4.98”, 0.76”, 1.625” - 0.95 (GC I)
logical - 9', 5", 7/8", 1 3/4" - 0.95 (GC II)
dzcues - 9', 5", 15/16", 1 1/2" - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+, 5", 1 1/8", 1 3/4" - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8', 4 3/8", 3/4", 1" - 0.94 (Diamond Pro-Am)
jtaylor-996 - 8' pro, 4.5", 0.5", 1.625" - 0.93 (Diamond)
Corwyn_8 - 9', 4 3/4", 1 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
Jedco - 9', 4 3/4", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.91 (GC I)
beetle - 9', 13.1cm, 2.2cm, 4.3cm - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9', 11.5cm, 138.7°, 3.5cm - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9', 4 7/8", 3/4", 1 1/2" - 0.91 (GC)
iusedtoberich - 9', 5 1/8", 1":, 1 1/2" - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9', 5 1/8", 3/4", 1 3/4" - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9', 5 1/8", 7/8", 1 1/2" - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9', 4 7/8", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9', 5 1/8", 7/8", 1 1/2" - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8', 4 1/2", 3/4", 1 1/4" - 0.87 (Connelly)
SloMoHolic - 8', 4 3/4", 3/4", 1 5/8" - 0.87 (Brunswick Medalist)
RobMan - 9', 5", 3/4", 1.5" - 0.86 (GC)
sniggihs - 7', 4 1/2", 5/8", 1 3/4" - 0.85 (Diamond)
SloMoHolic - 8'+, 4 7/8", 7/8", 1 1/4" - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist)
buckshotshoey - 8', 4 3/4", 3/4", 1 1/2" - 0.85 (American Heritage)
nateobot - 7', 4 3/8", 1/2", 1 3/4" - 0.85 (custom)
angluse - 8'+, 4 5/8", 7/16", 1 3/16" - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8', 4 3/4", 5/8", 1 3/8" - 0.84 (Connelly)
BRussell - 8', 5", 13/16", 1 1/2" - 0.83 (Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9', 13cm, 1cm, 3.5cm - 0.82 (home)
jtaylor996 - 7', 5 1/8", 146°, 1.51" - 0.82 (Legacy)
kanzzo - 9', 5 1/8", 139°, 1 1/4" - 0.80 (Legends of Pocket Billiards GC III)
Mooneye - 7', 4 7/8", 3/4", 1 5/8" - 0.79 (Brunswick Ranchero)
SloMoHolic - 6', 4 1/2", 0", 5/8" - 0.77 (Valley)
dzcues - 7', 4 1/2", 0", 1/2" - 0.77 (Valley)
dr_dave - 7', 4 1/2", 0", 3/4" - 0.77 (Valley)

kanzzo · Jan 25, 2022

Statement from The Legends of Pocket Billiards

This was posted on our FB page but I also wanted it posted it here: We would like to take a moment to thank all of our viewers that tuned in over the last few months to witness some historic 14.1 high runs. We also want to thank the players...

forums.azbilliards.com

the Legends of Pocket Billiards GC III should be updated to 5 1/8'' pockets after testing our measurement approach on a few tables of the members. The PSF doesn't change, since it's the same for 5'' < pocket <= 5 1/4''. So TDF doesn't change also but table meets BCA requirements (if they are ok with 139° PAF) since BCA doesn't allow pocket size bigger 5 1/8 ''

dr_dave · Jan 25, 2022

kanzzo said:
Statement from The Legends of Pocket Billiards

This was posted on our FB page but I also wanted it posted it here: We would like to take a moment to thank all of our viewers that tuned in over the last few months to witness some historic 14.1 high runs. We also want to thank the players...

forums.azbilliards.com

the Legends of Pocket Billiards GC III should be updated to 5 1/8'' pockets after testing our measurement approach on a few tables of the members. The PSF doesn't change, since it's the same for 5'' < pocket <= 5 1/4''.

Thanks for the info. I've made the change.

kanzzo said:
... table meets BCA requirements (if they are ok with 139° PAF) since BCA doesn't allow pocket size bigger 5 1/8 ''

Where did you see this written? I thought the "BCA Rules" were the same as the "WPA Rules." Here's the WPA Equipment specs for a corner pocket:

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]

Although, I suspect this range is specified as "recommended" and not "required." Most pool tables in the world are outside this extremely limited range. Absolute minimum and maximum values should probably be specified by the WPA (or BCA); for example: 3.75" (9.525 cm) to 5.25" (13.97 cm).

kanzzo · Jan 25, 2022

dr_dave said:
Where did you see this written? I thought the "BCA Rules" were the same as the "WPA Rules."

Bob Jewett provided the excerpts from BCA requirements for the last 70 years here.

dr_dave · Jan 25, 2022

kanzzo said:
Bob Jewett provided the excerpts from BCA requirements for the last 70 years here.

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize the BCA included things in their rule book that were different from the official WPA rules.

Bob Jewett · Jan 25, 2022

dr_dave said:
Thanks for the info. I didn't realize the BCA included things in their rule book that were different from the official WPA rules.

The BCA requirements have to match the recreational equipment that the members of the BCA manufacture. It's not the other way around.

pw98 · Apr 8, 2022

I had a Gandy Oversized 8 with 4.25" corner pockets, 0.75" shelf and .5" mouth-throat difference which I believe was 0.99 TDF. I also have a new custom made oversized 8 foot with 4.25" corner, 1.0" shelf and 0.75" mouth-throat difference which is 1.04 TDF.

The new table plays significantly harder. Basically the old table's pockets acted like vaccum cleaners as far as accepting poorly hit balls even with worn cloth. On the new table you have to hit and aim them a lot better but it still accepts some garbage shots. As the cloth wears in a lot less garbage is falling though and I expect it to get harder.

I think the new superspeed rubber might also be part of the reason the pockets play much harder as well: On the old table the rubber was pretty worn out.

The new table has a defective (warped) slate which is going to be replaced soon and hopefully the new slate will have a deeper shelf bringing it up into the hard category.

pw98 · Apr 8, 2022

Island Drive said:
If your ball set has not been cleaned, pocket facing angles will have a dramatic effect on whether the ball will drop or not.
I've found that 4 1/4'' pockets with new cloth and clean ball sets are allot easier than 4.5'' pockets with a worn out dirty ball set.
One room in particular taught me this.
Wetch's room in MN yrs ago, they buffed Every ball set when players brought the ball set to the counter to pay time.
When ball sets get worn from excessive Buffing they become very porous, they pick up dirt QUICKLY. Play conditions will change dramatically from start to 30 minutes later.
In this room after 45 minutes of play, you could take your thumb and wipe the ball and see a clean line & a dirt line.
Then, add in the MN humidity, the conditions are completely different than Casino a/c conditions.

There is a room around here that overbuffs the balls and I have the same problem. I was complaining about it to the counter guy and he didn't believe me when I said they play fine out of the cleaner but 45 minutes later they are unplayable and everything dramatically undercuts. I always bring my own balls to this room which I rarely play at because it allows smoking (they figured out a loophole in the law) and the equipment is garbage.

TheBasics · May 18, 2022

Howdy All;

Just curious, but tables I play on have 6 pockets and all I'm seeing are measurements for
only the Corners. What about the 2 Side pockets? How do they factor in? I realize that
there is a difference between how Side pockets play between 9' & 7' tables but, how
much does the throat angle along with the opening size effect the Bar tables 'complete
toughness' factor compared to how the sides effect the complete toughness of a 9'?

hank

dr_dave · May 19, 2022

TheBasics said:
Howdy All;

Just curious, but tables I play on have 6 pockets and all I'm seeing are measurements for
only the Corners. What about the 2 Side pockets? How do they factor in? I realize that
there is a difference between how Side pockets play between 9' & 7' tables but, how
much does the throat angle along with the opening size effect the Bar tables 'complete
toughness' factor compared to how the sides effect the complete toughness of a 9'?

hank

See the answer in the 2nd section here:

TDF resource page

TheBasics · May 19, 2022

dr_dave said:
See the answer in the 2nd section here:

TDF resource page

dr. dave, Howdy;

Thanks for the link. Mainly, I reckon my question was more about the throat angles
effect on how the side pocket difficulty increases due to the decrease in width from
the points to the edge of the shelf. How the angle to make a side pocket differs from
9' to 7' tables. Generally 9' tables accept a shot from ~21* BUT on a 7' table that is
larger and needs to be closer to ~ 31*, or, 9' from a point under the middle diamond
on the end rail and on a 7' a point above the middle diamond. How would these factors
change a TDF?

hank

dr_dave · May 19, 2022

TheBasics said:
dr. dave, Howdy;

Thanks for the link. Mainly, I reckon my question was more about the throat angles
effect on how the side pocket difficulty increases due to the decrease in width from
the points to the edge of the shelf. How the angle to make a side pocket differs from
9' to 7' tables. Generally 9' tables accept a shot from ~21* BUT on a 7' table that is
larger and needs to be closer to ~ 31*, or, 9' from a point under the middle diamond
on the end rail and on a 7' a point above the middle diamond. How would these factors
change a TDF?

hank

I haven’t “done the math” for side pockets, so I don’t know. Maybe I’ll look into this some day. I also want to look at curved-facing pockets also so comparisons can be made to snooker and Chinese pool tables.

Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

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