Brunswick sold to Escalade

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
From my perspective, Brunswick produced tables, designed by pro players for ''play'' during its growing years.

I will never understand the Diamond table builders, why the table design had legs ON THE CORNERS....they obstruct/get in the way of your legs to make a proper stance.

Brunswick GCI pedestal type design to allow Play/the game itself better bodily access to the shot/stance is KEY to the sport of Pro Pool.

I remember yrs ago when Sullivan used to follow our tour around (what he told me) to get info/imput from the players to design/launch his first table line.

Well, first release they were the early 90's Red Label 9 footers.

#1
The rail NOSE height was incorrect, or it may of been the angle or, but it was WRONG. Period. WHAT??????????????

I opened the first room in Denver with them. Rack Em in Aurora CO. Tony from Tony's hustlers did the install.

As a player, NEXT thing that stuck out, no rake holders, no ball boxes, no counters.

I was surprised with all the, Supposid good/help he'd gotten from the pro tour, that Greg DID NOT implement these as part of their table design, why? Greg didn't have any say, the table design spoke loudly to me.

The rails being wrong never made sense as to HOW THAT design flaw could EVER occur.
BE like building a new PGA golf course and have non spec size cups on the putting surface.

Because of that table and what it DIDN'T HAVE I was AMAZED......... after him talking it up for years.

I felt he was just the front man why?.... the table was not designed by a player, such as Mosconi it was designed by the beautiful wood AND THE THE FACTORY, and too me that was all.

Now the bar table, EVENTUALLY BECAME the best on the planet, but the full size 9' FRAMEWORK is NOT designed for the sport of pro play period.
TELL US HOW YOU REALLY FEEL!

WOW, great example of how to express ones true feelings~!

I have a feeling, based upon Cue Sports growth in Europe, and Asia: POOL IS GONNA BOOM HERE AT SOME POINT!

Brunswick has money to invest in the industry. I also heard of some new lighting company they are working with that makes custom commercial and home lighting. The future is looking very BRIGHT.

TFT
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My hope is at least some of the higher end tables are made in the USA with mostly materials sourced from the united states. Highly doubtful, but I hope they can make it happen. Keep the bean counters out of the sport. Build them right like the old gold crowns with American pride and people will buy them and drop some big coin in the process. 🇺🇲
VERY slim chance that ever happens. They have a supply chain they like. Building tables here would require a huge investment that i seriously doubt will ever happen. They have a tough time selling new GC's already for what they're asking.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, a good engineering design takes the burden off of the downstream operations, whether they are a manufacturer, installer, or consumer. In the case of the pocket castings being so far off for decades, I can only "guess" what is going on. My guess is there is a lot of manufacturing variation in the parts, so BW designed a lot of play in the components, and left it up to the installer to align everything better during the install. Some installers do it well, some don't. That "could" explain it. It could also be a case where there is so much manufacturing variation, and the design did not allow enough adjustment for the installer to align properly. That is another possibility. Probably several more possibilites. Full disclosure, I have not taken mine apart to see what is going on.

Now, in decades of this happening, and no improvements in all those decades, you would have to blame the engineers, not the installers, even if the engineers left enough play for the installers to get it right, IMO. The engineers should have seen after all these years, so many pockets were misaligned, and their design did not work. They should have "designed it out".

Diamond on the other hand, did "design it out". They knew of this decades old problem on the GC. Their tables are dry assembled at the factory with dowel pins at each pocket. Then after assembly, blending can be done where the pieces meet if necessary, to overcome any manufacturing variations. Then the table is disassembled. Now when it gets to the installer, he simply assembles the table, and the dowel pins maintain the alignment. That is an example of the engineers "designing out" the problem. But what is the cost of doing this? Extra time, extra labor, extra floor space, extra money? In exchange for a higher quality product delivered to the consumer. Is it worth it? That is a business decision.

To take that further, I believe diamond numbers each connection point, to keep that alignment if any blending was done. Now that is ok, but that could still be messed up by an installer who didn't match up the numbers. In that case, there is a saying, "there is always a bigger idiot", and you can't design out all possibilities. But, to make it better, the dowels could be different diameters at each corner, or different spacings. This would prevent mis-assembly of the corners, even if the person didn't see the numbers. You can take this as far as you want. But there comes a point where its too far, and the product become too expensive or too complex.

I was designing swings that rock babies to sleep for 15 years. We would have parents come in and put them together following the instructions. It was a shit-show. That really showed the engineers how difficult it can be for people, and how to improve. I suspect BW either doesn't care, or doesn't know, or doesn't want to spend the time/money to improve the design of decades of these pocket castings sticking up.

For as much as I like GC tables better than Diamonds, and how they play, I am disappointed after decades this is still a problem.
I'm surprised B'wick Corp kept the pool end as long as they did. It was WAY down on their list of priorities. Boats, motors,etc. is where they make their $$. They own 16 boat brands and Mercury motors/drives. Pool was just a legacy name they kept until someone took it off their hands. Really be nice to see new owners take the brand and push/promote it.
 
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Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I'm surprised B'wick Corp kept the pool end as long as they did. It was WAY down on their list of priorities. Boats, motors,etc. is where they make their $$. They own 16 boat brands and Mercury motors/drives. Pool was just a legacy name they kept until someone took it off their hands. Really be nice to see new owners take the brand and push/promote it.
The Industry (I worked at the BCA office) always talked about the Marine division and the $$$$$$$$ and why not help the billiard division.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Industry (I worked at the BCA office) always talked about the Marine division and the $$$$$$$$ and why not help the billiard division.
Spending money on the billiard division would have been strictly a labor of love. Top management really didn't care about a product line that didn't see big numbers. Legacy/history really meant nothing to them. They probably make more $ in one year selling spare boat/motor parts than the pool division did in five. All about that bottom line.
 

kling&allen

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
I just bought some of the ESCA stock this morning. Call me nostalgic, but I'm rooting for Brunswick:)

Despite my cynicism, ESCA looks like a well run company that turns a profit with a manageable amount of debt. But they are pretty small and don't have the sort of cash flow that would allow them to rapidly change Brunswick's operations. 40% of their business comes from Amazon and Dick's, so perhaps they are this as a way to diversify. I'm sure they will do a better job than Life Fitness.

Check out their last 10K for more information if you haven't already. Looks like they have some US manufacturing with 500 or so US employees in various roles.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From my perspective, Brunswick produced tables, designed by pro players for ''play'' during its growing years.

I will never understand the Diamond table builders, why the table design had legs ON THE CORNERS....they obstruct/get in the way of your legs to make a proper stance.

Brunswick GCI pedestal type design to allow Play/the game itself better bodily access to the shot/stance is KEY to the sport of Pro Pool.

I remember yrs ago when Sullivan used to follow our tour around (what he told me) to get info/imput from the players to design/launch his first table line.

Well, first release they were the early 90's Red Label 9 footers.

#1
The rail NOSE height was incorrect, or it may of been the angle or, but it was WRONG. Period. WHAT??????????????

I opened the first room in Denver with them. Rack Em in Aurora CO. Tony from Tony's hustlers did the install.

As a player, NEXT thing that stuck out, no rake holders, no ball boxes, no counters.

I was surprised with all the, Supposid good/help he'd gotten from the pro tour, that Greg DID NOT implement these as part of their table design, why? Greg didn't have any say, the table design spoke loudly to me.

The rails being wrong never made sense as to HOW THAT design flaw could EVER occur.
BE like building a new PGA golf course and have non spec size cups on the putting surface.

Because of that table and what it DIDN'T HAVE I was AMAZED......... after him talking it up for years.

I felt he was just the front man why?.... the table was not designed by a player, such as Mosconi it was designed by the beautiful wood AND THE THE FACTORY, and too me that was all.

Now the bar table, EVENTUALLY BECAME the best on the planet, but the full size 9' FRAMEWORK is NOT designed for the sport of pro play period.
You aren't wrong. Even upon conceding the rake holder and ball holders are necessary, diamond missed improvement opportunity.

What did they give us? Crappy screw-on attachments. And the ball holder can only hold 9 balls. Wtf?
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Brunswick, for whatever reason, lost its way. Had it stayed on course and continued to improve its product, Diamond does not exist.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Brunswick, for whatever reason, lost its way. Had it stayed on course and continued to improve its product, Diamond does not exist.
60's....They groomed there business model for the home market, with those early pastel apron colors on Gold Crowns.
Play numbers were diminishing during those years, and it's all there.
I think the numbers were in the 30,000,000 then went down to 20 mil, then shot back up for almost ten yrs after Color of Money, then went back down to 20mil.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
Brunswick, for whatever reason, lost its way. Had it stayed on course and continued to improve its product, Diamond does not exist.
Brunswick has always made money in the home/ rec market. They just lost interest in the commercial market that they pretty much created. Now they are producing new pool tables :) Gonna be neat seeing Brunswick, Predator, Rasson and Diamond all making stuff!

TFT
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
60's....They groomed there business model for the home market, with those early pastel apron colors on Gold Crowns.
Play numbers were diminishing during those years, and it's all there.
I think the numbers were in the 30,000,000 then went down to 20 mil, then shot back up for almost ten yrs after Color of Money, then went back down to 20mil.
Most GC's were installed in all the post-Hustler Brunswick equipped rec. rooms. Place i used to play at in Tulsa, CueCity, had 30 GC1 pool tables, a snooker and a carom model. Had all the GC George Jetson-style furniture, cue racks, etc. In the mid 60's i guess these type rooms were all over the country. https://www.classicbilliards.net/antique-parts-accessories/miscellaneous/brunswick-catalog-1963.html Chair sets: https://brunswick.pastperfectonline.com/library/BBEB4CDA-0827-48D5-8B0A-938600167160 Those JetFlow fiberglass chair sets are worth a bunch these days.
 
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Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Correct. The table is owned by an AZer, fd_colorado. Fred does not post here much anymore but he still plays on that 4. I have pics of Glen and myself carrying slates up snow covered wooden staircases.
Let me know if you wish to visit, late summer is best for the best tomatoes in the Rocky Mountains.
My wife is as mean as a bee stung Bobcat but she mellows out when she falls asleep.
The Tom’s are the best!!🍅🍅😋😋

I remember those pics of the off load of the table
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Brunswick, for whatever reason, lost its way. Had it stayed on course and continued to improve its product, Diamond does not exist.
Once B'wick found out the money to be made in boats/motors/parts/access. the writing was on the wall for the pool division. Kinda surprised they kept the fitness/billiard div's as long as they did.
 

MC0135

Member
TELL US HOW YOU REALLY FEEL!

WOW, great example of how to express ones true feelings~!

I have a feeling, based upon Cue Sports growth in Europe, and Asia: POOL IS GONNA BOOM HERE AT SOME POINT!

Brunswick has money to invest in the industry. I also heard of some new lighting company they are working with that makes custom commercial and home lighting. The future is looking very BRIGHT.

TFT
I’ve seen some prototypes of this light and I look forward to seeing it hit the market. It looks pretty good and should be better than the diamond light.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Anyone with a few million can probably take over the whole billiards industry.
Again, if you only knew and understood the billiards industry. As long as Diamond and Valley supports the major tournaments in this country, no NEW table manufacturer is going to waste the sale of NEW tables as tournament used and sell them off after tournaments they're used for.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Brunswick has always made money in the home/ rec market. They just lost interest in the commercial market that they pretty much created. Now they are producing new pool tables :) Gonna be neat seeing Brunswick, Predator, Rasson and Diamond all making stuff!

TFT
Their current catalog has 14 models, 12 of which look like shit imo. Hope the new owners ditch the dogs and come up with some better looking tables. Only the GC and that way overpriced Centennial look ok to me. 16GRAND for that ugly as fk Birmingham????
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Looked at those counters, yep the cheap ones Japan?, not the original ones. Those cheap ones Never worked as good a the original ones.
 
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