Cue and tip sales. Did you think I meant Coca-Cola? I mean Predator, Cuetec, Meucci, Diamond, Rasson, HOW, etc.
Appleton Suspension?
- Thread starter kling&allen
- Start date
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Sure, but do they add value? Do the companies actually sell more product because of what a pool player who lives in his car uses?
The answer isn't 'no', but it is close to 'no'.
Companies sponsor players. So they get something out of it or else they wouldn’t do it. There’s no doubt Cuetec “gets something” out of SVB in terms of sales. I bet Predator gets something out of Filler.
Maybe there are lower tier pros that offer questionable value. What does Predator get out of Mitch Ellerman? Then again, Mitch Ellerman isn’t playing in WPM. The players that are, are probably getting better sponsorship packages than players that aren’t.
It has to go both ways. Why would SVB be sponsored by Cuetec if he wasn’t getting anything out of it. I’m sure they’re sending him more than just new cues when he wants them. He’s probably getting some checks in the mail. The kind of checks that go a long way in covering his airfare and lodging to these events… if not also the kind of checks that count as income. I mean, these players couldn’t possibly be jetting around the globe on prize money alone.
You don't think maybe one or two Cuetecs have been sold because of SVB?
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
I really doubt he had much of an impact on their bottom line.
Even if he did, name four other current pros who would have a similar amount of impact.
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All of them
They seem to be of the opinion people watch pool because of them instead of the players.
None that I'm aware of
As far as Appleton being chosen twice for testing, my understanding is that the WPA and the event organizer have no say in who will be tested. That is determined by the testing agency and the selection is random. If you think about it for a little while, I think you'll see why that's absolutely necessary for such a program. And I believe the testing agency is certified by WADA but separately contracted.
I'm not sure the pool players would agree with some of what you say, but of course, we each come at this topic from a different vantage point.
I do appreciate Matchroom's efforts to effect a change for the better, but as with everything associated with pool, there's always going to be some disgruntled parties or disagreements on the end result.
Expenses for the pool players are brutal. When Earl Strickland could not compete in the Mosconi Cup after flying out there and getting lodging, it is my understanding that he wasn't afforded an appearance fee and wasn't paid anything. In this regard, it is nice that the World Masters invitational gave each player $1,750, but it really doesn't cut the mustard as far as expenses, but it cost Matchroom $42,000 additional monies on top of production costs, staff expenses, salaried staff and independent contractors like referees, et cetera, et cetera.
Pool continues to be a rich man's high. Only the very elite turn a profit, e.g., Shane, Filler, Albin, Efren, just to name a few. But I'd be interested to learn how much expenses on average compared to winnings.
I personally am saddened at Darren Appleton's situation because he was just getting back into the thick of it and hitting 'em strong, with good results in events he competed in. It is unfortunate, especially for his fans, of which I am one.
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Thanks as always for your insights. Yes, we come at things differently, but that's never gotten in the way of constructive exchange of opinions between the two of us. That's because we've always wanted the same thing in our sport, namely tournaments that are lucrative for both event producers and pro players.
Did you realize that through April, the 18th ranked player on the AZB money list for 2022 has earned over $34,000 in prizes? That means that if things continue this way for 2022, eighteen players will make at least $100,000 in prize money, and every last one of them has sponsorship. The Matchroom rankings are brand new, but what the future holds is that all players that maintain a Top 32 Matchroom ranking will automatically qualify for every Matchroom event, and in all likelihood will thrive.
Yes, the middle of the road players will still have it tough, as they always did. You are 100% correct that it's only the elite who will be making a good living from pool, but pool has become a lucrative career for more players than ever before due to the combined efforts of Matchroom and CSI/Predator. I see some light at the end of the tunnel, but I think we'd both agree that there's still quite a long way to go.
Fingers are crossed.
That's certainly the case. The WPA doesn't care what any of the players say and probably isn't even aware of Appleton's comments. But the question is--other than IOC butt kissing--why subject pool players to the strict WADA regimen that is rarely if ever used in US professional sports.
The clue is in the W part of WADA....its not just about the US!
I can only make an educated guess here.
Cuesports' affiliation with the IOC occurs at the WCBS (World Confederation of Billiard Sports) level, and pool (through the WPA), snooker and carom all fall under the WCBS umbrella. All three of these have hopes of being in the Olympics one day, and the probability of that happening, which many feel isn't very good, is not really the point. All three cuesports are already included in the World Games, a traditional stepping-stone to inclusion in the Olympic games. I believe that without WCBS and WPA affiliation, pool could not compete in the World Games.
All of that said, if pool wants to give up the Olympic dream and is willing to forego participation in the World Games, it could, but IOC affiliation brings quite a bit of money with it and pool, to this point, has chosen to continue its affiliation with IOC through the WCBS and the WPA, as have snooker and carom.
WADA comes with the territory as long as cuesports are affiliated with IOC through the WCBS, that won't change.
I think that's 100 percent accurate. But the issue is whether that Olympic chasing is good for the sport and whether the pro leagues (Matchroom) need to be a part of it. Perhaps without the World Games we wouldn't have state sponsored pool in Eastern Europe and the Middle East (as you have pointed out before), which would limit the player pool more than the crazy bans and suspensions we've seen over the last year.
OK, so you're advocating having pool cut ties with the IOC. In theoretical terms, it would seem that this could happen if any of the following were to occur: 1) WCBS were to cut ties with the IOC, something that's possible but hard to imagine, 2) WPA were to cut ties with WCBS, also hard to imagine, or 3) pool were to cut ties with the WPA, a move I personally would think highly inadvisable.
Again, I'm just not enough of an insider to judge most of this and can make no more than an educated guess. For the sake of argument, it seems that if the WCBS/IOC tie were to be cut, pool, snooker, and carom would all be affected, and unless all three strongly advocated such a severance of ties, it probably could not happen.
I can't think of any reason WPA would consider cutting ties with WCBS, as it would make pool an island in the ocean of cuesports, something that seems like a really bad idea. to me.
Finally, despite all the WPA bashing I so often read on the forum, WPA still plays a critical role in our sport. It's OK if people want the WPA to be more effective in its mission, but a centralized sanctioning body is something that pool needs badly.
Hence, I'll leave with you with this. How, exactly, would you affect the changes you have in mind?
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I think there are two options:
(1) WCBS (and WPA) act like all other international sports bodies and apply sport-specific solutions instead of rubberstamping IOC recommendations or whatever is the hot topic at the Swiss ski clubs. Most sports modify WADA guidelines for their specific requirements--e.g., players shouldn't miss warm ups because of testing. No other international governing body has banned all participation by Russian/Belarusian athletes. No other World Games sport has taken this position. Only billiards.
or
(2) Pool leagues go their own way without worrying about what some international federation thinks. The NFL doesn't care or follow what the IFAF thinks about football. The MLB doesn't care about the IBAF. Perhaps the WCBS/WPA would be better off tinkering with amateur-only events (like the IFAF) and step away from the professional game.
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