Pool Player Podcast............... WPA

I just watched it in its entirety. I think he made a lot of good points. He has to watch out for the entirety of pocket billiard disciplines worldwide. He's so right, in that if MR simply sanctioned, everything would be fine.

I've gone back and forth several times if I'm on the side of MR or WPA. This latest interview sways me closer to the WPA side, but I'm not strongly on either.
I have the same thoughts as you. I have mixed feelings about both entities for different reasons. I do admire Ishaun for stepping up to the plate and waiting for all incoming. The insults were flying in the chat, and I was ashamed at some of the words written about Ishaun personally.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what a railbird like me thinks. It's the pro players themselves who matter in this equation. It's their life and their careers on the line. They are the entitles to express their thoughts on how this political divide affects them. Unfortunately, I think some of them don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers on each side, so they remain radio silent for reasons that those of us on the outside looking in may not understand.

I would love to hear from Barry Hearn, his thoughts, and not railbird sock puppets. I have a great deal of respect for him.
 
I think Matchroom’s position is they spend more money and effort on the sport than others and therefore shouldn’t have their business dictated by part time
WPA volunteers with no business background. Same reason the NFL, NBA, and others have no relationship with their Olympic counterpart federations.

I think player bans are bad regardless of who is enforcing them.
Well said.
 
Another take which I don’t admire is that those sports are national tours which leaves room internationally for an other countries to try to get something going if their local market appreciates the product. But pool is already international. So is it different to have a corporation dominate an entire sport internationally? Does that put them in a position to control the sport? And really control it down to exploitational player contracts and zero room for checks and balances? Could a players union stand up to that? Would a government have any jurisdiction to add protections and regulations?

But that was also conveyed by some Europeans that I think might have had some anti-corporation sentiments in their core values. Because they started from a place that what Matchroom was doing with the WST was a problem where I think when you have prize funds at those sizes (compared to pool) you have good problems. They mentioned Snooker prize funds have not increased since the 90s which I couldn’t argue. But that lands in deaf ears in a pool discussion. But in a snooker discussion that might be a concern.
A well-judged post, my friend.

As you note, most of us on AZB take the corporate system and free enterprise for granted and we have seen first-hand how competition helps in almost every sector of the economy, but there are others who are accustomed to more monopolistic behavior from the business and governments that oversee them, and we should be mindful of that. Like us, these people are products of their respective environments,

Even in this era, we've seen de facto monopolies in America, such as AT&T's virtual monopoly over the phone business until about 1980. US Steel had a virtual monopoly on the American steel business until the late 1970's too. Monopolies tend not to last, however, in the type of economy in which you and I live, for alternative suppliers of both goods and services invariably pop up and drive prices downward.
 
I just watched the first few segments of this interview with Ishaun Singh, whoever he is. I've never heard his name before and now he tells us this is his idea and he is the boss of the WPA! I would like to know what his background is in the sport of Pool and how he came to this position?

I found him to be both evasive in his responses and stumbling around to find the right words to fit his narrative. Some of it sounds like double speak, where he is denying the very issues that exist at the heart of this dispute. He is telling us that the MR 9-Ball rankings and the sanction fees are not really part of the problem. And he glosses over the issues regarding the rules. What I can tell you is that there is another side to this story and it's not being told here. I have had private conversations with Barry Hearn where he elaborated on his issues with the WPA, but it is not my place to speak for him or repeat anything he told me in private. I would like to hear a response either from Barry himself or Emily to the allegations this man is making here.

In essence he is saying that due to the WPA dispute with Matchroom they will punish the players by curtailing one of their best options to make a living playing pool! That kind of turns my stomach to print this here. IMO this would only make sense if there were MR events that conflicted with WPA sanctioned events. In that case the players would need to make a decision where they would play, knowing there could be possible penalties for appearing in a conflicting tournament. I do not think this has been the case yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

All this harkens back to other times in the history of our sport where poor decision making by players and their leadership resulted in the loss of sponsorship and the cancellation of major tournaments. The sport of Pool has continually shot itself in the foot due to errors in judgement similar to what we are seeing here. Mr. Singh refers to the "ownership" of the sport, as if it belongs to the WPA, who has never been any more than a sanctioning body. To the best of my knowlege they have never put any money into the sport, and in actuality only collected money from promoters and traveled to the events on the promoters dime and graced the awards ceremonies as if they had co-produced the events. Even their promise to protect your dates and at the same time protect the players was not always kept! In the event of problems with the prize money payouts, they failed to intevene on behalf of the players and did not sanction the promoters who failed to pay in a timely and complete manner. When there were conflicts in dates they would typically side with the promoter who was paying them the highest fees. This is the history I remember and I've been around far longer than Mr. Singh. He hasn't even got his feet wet and yet he is pontificating like he knows what's best for our sport. I've seen so many do-gooders come and go in my time with this sport.

What is clearly needed now is a strong players association, like we see with the PGA tour in golf. If 100 of the top players got together, they would become a powerful force in forging their own future. At a time when Pool looks to be on the precipice of a big move forward in terms of prize money, major tournaments and far more exposure for the players on television and live streams, they need to be a cohesive unit. They need good leadership from people that are part of the industry, who are mainly concerned with what's best for the players, and not themselves. What is often forgotten by people like I see here is that without the players there would be no tournaments to sanction, and nothing for him to do. The players are the stars, and that fact should not be lost on the various people that engage in this sport in any capacity.

Try though they might, they can't sanction or suspend me!
 
I just watched the first few segments of this interview with Ishaun Singh, whoever he is. I've never heard his name before and now he tells us this is his idea and he is the boss of the WPA! I would like to know what his background is in the sport of Pool and how he came to this position?

I found him to be both evasive in his responses and stumbling around to find the right words to fit his narrative. Some of it sounds like double speak, where he is denying the very issues that exist at the heart of this dispute. He is telling us that the MR 9-Ball rankings and the sanction fees are not really part of the problem. And he glosses over the issues regarding the rules. What I can tell you is that there is another side to this story and it's not being told here. I have had private conversations with Barry Hearn where he elaborated on his issues with the WPA, but it is not my place to speak for him or repeat anything he told me in private. I would like to hear a response either from Barry himself or Emily to the allegations this man is making here.

In essence he is saying that due to the WPA dispute with Matchroom they will punish the players by curtailing one of their best options to make a living playing pool! That kind of turns my stomach to print this here. IMO this would only make sense if there were MR events that conflicted with WPA sanctioned events. In that case the players would need to make a decision where they would play, knowing there could be possible penalties for appearing in a conflicting tournament. I do not think this has been the case yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

All this harkens back to other times in the history of our sport where poor decision making by players and their leadership resulted in the loss of sponsorship and the cancellation of major tournaments. The sport of Pool has continually shot itself in the foot due to errors in judgement similar to what we are seeing here. Mr. Singh refers to the "ownership" of the sport, as if it belongs to the WPA, who has never been any more than a sanctioning body. To the best of my knowlege they have never put any money into the sport, and in actuality only collected money from promoters and traveled to the events on the promoters dime and graced the awards ceremonies as if they had co-produced the events. Even their promise to protect your dates and at the same time protect the players was not always kept! In the event of problems with the prize money payouts, they failed to intevene on behalf of the players and did not sanction the promoters who failed to pay in a timely and complete manner. When there were conflicts in dates they would typically side with the promoter who was paying them the highest fees. This is the history I remember and I've been around far longer than Mr. Singh. He hasn't even got his feet wet and yet he is pontificating like he knows what's best for our sport. I've seen so many do-gooders come and go in my time with this sport.

What is clearly needed now is a strong players association, like we see with the PGA tour in golf. If 100 of the top players got together, they would become a powerful force in forging their own future. At a time when Pool looks to be on the precipice of a big move forward in terms of prize money, major tournaments and far more exposure for the players on television and live streams, they need to be a cohesive unit. They need good leadership from people that are part of the industry, who are mainly concerned with what's best for the players, and not themselves. What is often forgotten by people like I see here is that without the players there would be no tournaments to sanction, and nothing for him to do. The players are the stars, and that fact should not be lost on the various people that engage in this sport in any capacity.

Try though they might, they can't sanction or suspend me!
Well said, Jay, and yes, WPA will continue to misrepresent things as they look really bad here. I've never met Ishaun, so I can't comment on the man himself.

I would agree that if the players presented a united front, they could make a difference. Though in less detail than you, I also know the history of pro pool over the last fifty years or so from both the event producer and player perspective.

That said, I don't find this situation being comparable to any we've seen. Barring revision or abolition of the WPA edict that stands in the way of players maximizing their earnings from pro pool, we're moving into a world in which each of the players will reside in one of two worlds.

Those in World 1 will continue to get money from their governments and/or federations, agreeing to sit out all "WPA sanctioning eligible" events that forego sanctioning (yes, this means Matchroom events, but also includes a few other events and possibly emerging events).

Those in World 2 will forego government/federation money and won't participate in WPA sanctioned events but will remain eligible to participate in Matchroom events, including four zero entry fee events annually for most of the elite in the Premier League Pool, WPM, WCOP, and Mosconi Cup.

Within these parameters, it's not clear how the players will be able to get together and offer a united front. Some will have a deep commitment to maintaining relations with their own governments/federations and will feel that all players getting that kind of support should feel similar loyalties. One of the issues at the core of this mess is the question "To what extent should players remain loyal to the governments/federations that provided the pool infrastructure under which they developed into world class players?" and opinions differ greatly among the players.

The WPA has been successful in creating a huge divide among the players. Soon, some of the most elite players might go an entire calendar year without seeing each other. That's a big impediment to getting the players to offer a united front, so if they want to act together, they should do it without delay.

I wish I had a solution, but I don't. Where I hope this is heading is towards some sort of reconciliation between WPA and Matchroom, but it's hard to imagine that happening right now. The rhetoric from WPA still feels like that of a monopoly determined to ward off competition.

Pool is big enough for Matchroom and WPA, and I wish both of them success over the long haul.
 
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Suspending players is necessary. For example: There are athletes in all sports, including pool who switch continents in order to be chosen to play because they aren't ranked high enough in their own federation to get in through the allotted quota, so they will try to get in through a different federation. That means they would be kicking out a player who earned that spot in their own continental federation.

There's nothing wrong with switching continents, but you have to live there for awhile before jumping ahead of other players in that continent. So there is a waiting period where you have to live there. Last I heard it was 3 years.

A big issue with WPA vs. Matchroom is that Matchroom won't honor date conflicts and they want the players to give Matchroom the final say as to what tournaments they can and can't play in.

Matchroom used to be a sports agency. I recall back when they had several snooker players under contract. Then they started running events. That's a conflict of interest when you try to give an appearance of being objective but have horses in your stable in your event. Easy to manipulate.

The WPA board of directors consists of representatives of all the continental federations. So if you have a gripe about this, then take it to your own continental federation where these decisions are coming from in the first place.

So hey Europe --- stop complaining and go talk to the European Federation who represents you. They're the ones who signed on to this.
 
Suspending players is necessary. For example: There are athletes in all sports, including pool who switch continents in order to be chosen to play because they aren't ranked high enough in their own federation to get in through the allotted quota, so they will try to get in through a different federation. That means they would be kicking out a player who earned that spot in their own continental federation.

There's nothing wrong with switching continents, but you have to live there for awhile before jumping ahead of other players in that continent. So there is a waiting period where you have to live there. Last I heard it was 3 years.

A big issue with WPA vs. Matchroom is that Matchroom won't honor date conflicts and they want the players to give Matchroom the final say as to what tournaments they can and can't play in.

Matchroom used to be a sports agency. I recall back when they had several snooker players under contract. Then they started running events. That's a conflict of interest when you try to give an appearance of being objective but have horses in your stable in your event. Easy to manipulate.

The WPA board of directors consists of representatives of all the continental federations. So if you have a gripe about this, then take it to your own continental federation where these decisions are coming from in the first place.

So hey Europe --- stop complaining and go talk to the European Federation who represents you. They're the ones who signed on to this.
Thanks for shedding some additional light on the subject.
 
I think Matchroom’s position is they spend more money and effort on the sport than others and therefore shouldn’t have their business dictated by part time
WPA volunteers with no business background. Same reason the NFL, NBA, and others have no relationship with their Olympic counterpart federations.
I am coming at this from a position of ignorance, as I know no inside information and know very little about the history of pro pool. Having said that, the above bolded does not seem like it takes the players best interest in mind either. I mean, if both organizations are going to stand their ground with no compromise, how does that benefit the players? I get that MR has done, and continues to do, a lot for pro pool, but there is always a chance, like camel, IPT, etc. that they will get tired of funding pro pool next week or next year. What happens if the WPA simply outlasts MR?

As a boxing fan, MR has a solid reputation in boxing and works with the craziness of having FOUR sanctioning bodies the WBA, WBC, IBF and the WBO. Seems if MR Boxing can navigate the alphabet soup of boxing federations, MR pool can work it out with the lone WPA.

Maybe a good spot for mediation, but if both entities have dug their heels in and refuse to compromise, it could get even uglier and continue to put the players in awkward and detrimental situations.
 
Matchroom used to be a sports agency. I recall back when they had several snooker players under contract. Then they started running events. That's a conflict of interest when you try to give an appearance of being objective but have horses in your stable in your event. Easy to manipulate.

can you elaborate on this? to my sparse knowledge they only promoted a few non-ranking events before 2009, by which time their stable players were all but retired and/or not under management. where were the conflicts of interest and how did they manifest themselves?
 
Scope of companies change over time, however. Predator went from selling only aftermarket shafts, to selling everything under the sun in the pool industry, and now promoting events as well.

When Shane didn't want to wear a Predator Tour patch 2 years ago because it would look like he was promoting the Predator Cues brand, he had a point. Conversely, if MR starts selling pool cues, it would be the same thing.
 
I am coming at this from a position of ignorance, as I know no inside information and know very little about the history of pro pool. Having said that, the above bolded does not seem like it takes the players best interest in mind either. I mean, if both organizations are going to stand their ground with no compromise, how does that benefit the players? I get that MR has done, and continues to do, a lot for pro pool, but there is always a chance, like camel, IPT, etc. that they will get tired of funding pro pool next week or next year. What happens if the WPA simply outlasts MR?

As a boxing fan, MR has a solid reputation in boxing and works with the craziness of having FOUR sanctioning bodies the WBA, WBC, IBF and the WBO. Seems if MR Boxing can navigate the alphabet soup of boxing federations, MR pool can work it out with the lone WPA.

Maybe a good spot for mediation, but if both entities have dug their heels in and refuse to compromise, it could get even uglier and continue to put the players in awkward and detrimental situations.
Matchrooms perpsective would be “We grew Darts and Snooker by doing X, Y and Z. We want to do that for pool, but we can’t do Z within WPAs structure” or “The WPA structure negatively influences our ability to do Z effectively”. So they would see it in the best interests of the players because if they accomplish what they want then everyone benefits.
 
If it wasn't for MR's success we wouldn't be hearing a 'peep' out of the WPA. They are scared and these bans are nothing but the last gasp flailings of a bunch of political windbags. Would pool in general miss these tools if they disappeared tomorrow?? Doubt it.
 
Matchrooms perpsective would be “We grew Darts and Snooker by doing X, Y and Z. We want to do that for pool, but we can’t do Z within WPAs structure” or “The WPA structure negatively influences our ability to do Z effectively”. So they would see it in the best interests of the players because if they accomplish what they want then everyone benefits.
Even if it excludes those that will remain loyal to their WPA organization? Imagine if Filler, Ouschan, the Polish players, were to side with WPA because they receive funding from their government (Just using them as a hypothetical). Would MR really consider it a win if we never saw those guys in a MR event?
 
I am coming at this from a position of ignorance, as I know no inside information and know very little about the history of pro pool. Having said that, the above bolded does not seem like it takes the players best interest in mind either. I mean, if both organizations are going to stand their ground with no compromise, how does that benefit the players? I get that MR has done, and continues to do, a lot for pro pool, but there is always a chance, like camel, IPT, etc. that they will get tired of funding pro pool next week or next year. What happens if the WPA simply outlasts MR?

As a boxing fan, MR has a solid reputation in boxing and works with the craziness of having FOUR sanctioning bodies the WBA, WBC, IBF and the WBO. Seems if MR Boxing can navigate the alphabet soup of boxing federations, MR pool can work it out with the lone WPA.

Maybe a good spot for mediation, but if both entities have dug their heels in and refuse to compromise, it could get even uglier and continue to put the players in awkward and detrimental situations.

Agreed. The players are on the losing end of this fight. They are either the content that Matchroom sells or the hostages used by the WPA to collect fees.
 
Even if it excludes those that will remain loyal to their WPA organization? Imagine if Filler, Ouschan, the Polish players, were to side with WPA because they receive funding from their government (Just using them as a hypothetical). Would MR really consider it a win if we never saw those guys in a MR event?
If they start getting million dollar prize funds, or even 750,000 prize funds for their big production events, yes. I think they’d want those players at their tournaments, but it’s really early doors in terms of broadening the awareness of professional pool. There aren’t any real stars at this time that drive interest in the way that a Ronnie O’Sullivan does for snooker. They can easily just push a Fedor in their stead because he’s a well spoken and good looking kid with a big game.
 
can you elaborate on this? to my sparse knowledge they only promoted a few non-ranking events before 2009, by which time their stable players were all but retired and/or not under management. where were the conflicts of interest and how did they manifest themselves?
Who are you? What's your name? What country are you from and what's your relationship with Matchroom? So you're saying that running even just a few events in the past without letting everyone know that these players in the events were being managed by them is okay? Were they trying to give the impression that the event was an unbiased legitimate competition or just a means of entertainment?
 
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If it wasn't for MR's success we wouldn't be hearing a 'peep' out of the WPA. They are scared and these bans are nothing but the last gasp flailings of a bunch of political windbags. Would pool in general miss these tools if they disappeared tomorrow?? Doubt it.
I don't think that's fair. Due to the federations and the WPA, we have true world championships. Do you recall the "Back Pocket 9 Ball World Championship". Did that really deserve to be called a world championship if the vast majority of the players were from the NorthEast region of the USA where the game was popular?

Through the WPA and its members, we have the best of the best of each country sent to the World Championships. When there is a World Championship these days, we can be assured it will truly have the best player from all corners of the world.

I think that is worth a lot.

See Charlie's 14.1 "fake" WC for the alternative.
 
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