BHE vs FHE

[BasementDweller]

I don't know...I wonder if in an attempt to explain in detail, what one does at the table, they combine the subconscious and conscious parts of their routine. The finding of the center ball aim line just doesn't seem like something a "pro" would ever have to do consciously, since if they can't see that line then they probably aren't a pro, aside from the odd difficult shot. But maybe we all at least start with this subconsciously. Guess you'd have to in a hierarchical sense. So we are all building off of the same starting position. I'm guessing I see this overlap while standing, and adjust my body from there as I'm stepping into the shot.

The whole conversation about what we do is really more of a conversation about what we think we do as something as complex as aiming and applying english takes on a life of its own. Knowing which part of the process is conscious vs subconscious is hard to pin down as we turn it all into a conscious activity when we are analyzing it. We could all probably write down a 25 step process for this that takes place in less than a second. So what's really going on?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I've been surprised by this thread. I didn't realize there were players who are at a minimum - very good amateurs, that come down on the center ball aim line and adjusted (however they do it) from there.

I'm wondering now if there are modern pros that do the same.

Do you consider CJ Wiley a modern pro since he's still playing? He starts off every shot by aligning to 2 places. Either center to center or center to edge. That's IT! Then he pivots from there to dial it in.

 

[The_JV]

First off... Great post. ...and thank you taking the time to produce it.

There are three ways to apply the BHE.....1 move the hips........2 move just the grip hand....3 curl the wrist......All three will get you there....The way you get there is up to the comfort level of the player.

Ok hold on... I think I fixed the numbering system and highlighted the change. Just want to make sure I reference them correctly.

Both #2&3 are pure examples of BHE. Wherein the mechanics of the grip arm have changed from center ball alignment to facilitate the application of english. The butt of the cue in both instances has moved laterally towards or away from the torso.

#1 (I believe) Is the rotation of the upper body (torso) to pivot the cue away from the original aim line to apply english on the CB. It appears the same as far as tip position is concerned. However this adjustment has no element of lateral movement in the grip arm in relation to the torso. The grip arm stays in natural alignment and the mechanics of the shooter are not adjusted. This is how I adjust for the application of english. Pretty sure I got that right. Please correct me with an explanation if I got it wrong.

Now (as it applies to BHE).....If I set up square and then move my hips to apply the BHE....this (at least to me) makes my head move (at least turn with my shoulders and hips) which then "skews" my visual perception of the shot......

If I only move my grip hand in or out.....The rest of my entire set up is still "square" to a CBA.....Now if my stroke were to FAIL under pressure....the theory (at least my theory) is that the stroke will fail back to "natural" which would mean right down the CBA shot line.

Ok, so the above confirms my understand of #1 and how it compares to 2&3.

The GOAL of my mechanics is to be one of those guys the you watch like Earl, Efren...or modern day Shaw that seem to make everything they look at but if you really watch their mechanics they don't necessarily have "text book" mechanics....yet they never miss?......I believe it is due to the set up generates a "natural" way of making balls the does not fail under pressure but only gets better.......and NO I am not one of those guys that never misses....but I do make a lot more balls than I miss....and although I am well past my prime I am still going to strive to be a "never miss" type of guy.

We're no different in the end goal and success.

To me this method (and also setting up using the shafts natural pivot point) are both "self correcting"....and since I am very much a player that does not get out for 10 hours a day every day to play pool....Instead of trying to get a "perfect" stroke....I need to find a way to play this game that allows my stroke to be "a bit wobbly" from time to time.

See here is where I'm running into misguided conflicts in this thread. In perfect world I would like to believe every pool player would want flawless mechanics. We see endless comments on this forum about people either struggling to improve them or disheartened enough to consider abandoning the pursuit. IMO flawless mechanics aren't necessary but whatever they do it must be consistently repeatable or they're merely pissing in the wind.

I see a few mentions of how minor BHE adjustments for english actually are. However the rough math states that if you have a range of ~1.25" of tip placement on the CB. Then you will have roughly x4 that at the butt, so ~5". The only way that number at the butt becomes smaller, (assuming max english) is if you compensate with your torso. However that torso compensation isn't a part of BHE, it's correction for misalignment of the stroke.

I think there's a blending of varying methods into what BHE is. Just because your cue pivots at the bridge, does not mean you necessarily applying BHE. BHE is a deviation of a natural stroke in relation to the body.

Not trying to change the way anyone applies their method of English...Nor am I saying 1 is better than the other....Each person has to ultimately go with what works for them.....This post is just an attempt to explain the "why" (I do it like that)

This 100%... It appears we do the same adjustment for english. I don't have an element of BHE. I rotate my torso, (aka: move hips). My grip arm does not deviate from a natural/neutral stroking position.

Thanks again for the post

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I don't know...I wonder if in an attempt to explain in detail, what one does at the table, they combine the subconscious and conscious parts of their routine. The finding of the center ball aim line just doesn't seem like something a "pro" would ever have to do consciously, since if they can't see that line then they probably aren't a pro, aside from the odd difficult shot. But maybe we all at least start with this subconsciously. Guess you'd have to in a hierarchical sense. So we are all building off of the same starting position. I'm guessing I see this overlap while standing, and adjust my body from there as I'm stepping into the shot.

The whole conversation about what we do is really more of a conversation about what we think we do as something as complex as aiming and applying english takes on a life of its own. Knowing which part of the process is conscious vs subconscious is hard to pin down as we turn it all into a conscious activity when we are analyzing it. We could all probably write down a 25 step process for this that takes place in less than a second. So what's really going on?

Not what you just posted, that's for damn sure!

 

[BC21]

That’s not how I learned and use backhand english. When it’s time to hit the cueball, the player’s stroke should be in alignment with his body. Maybe I misunderstand what you’re saying, but it feels like your imagining what normal backhand english users do, and that the action must be significant with gross movements.

Agree 100%. What I'm saying is the stroke and the body should be aligned on the same path/line. A lot of players learn to simply move their grip toward the body or away from the body to apply spin, which knocks the stroke off line with the body/stance. And they wonder why their stroke is inconsistent on certain shots.

It doesn't mean a player can't eventually get really good at playing with their stroke out of line with their body on certain shots, but I believe it's counterproductive to consistent stroke development.

 

[BasementDweller]

Do you consider CJ Wiley a modern pro since he's still playing? He starts off every shot by aligning to 2 places. Either center to center or center to edge. That's IT! Then he pivots from there to dial it in.

Sure. I just think we can be wrong about what we are actually doing. All of us. I think we can probably come close to understanding it, but what our brains are actually doing when we get out of their way may be slightly or vastly different. For someone to "see" the entirety of the shot picture instantly, at least at times, tells me our subconscious mind is more powerful than we give it credit for.

 

[BRKNRUN]

First off... Great post. ...and thank you taking the time to produce it.

Ok hold on... I think I fixed the numbering system and highlighted the change. Just want to make sure I reference them correctly.

Both #2&3 are pure examples of BHE. Wherein the mechanics of the grip arm have changed from center ball alignment to facilitate the application of english. The butt of the cue in both instances has moved laterally towards or away from the torso.

#1 (I believe) Is the rotation of the upper body (torso) to pivot the cue away from the original aim line to apply english on the CB. It appears the same as far as tip position is concerned. However this adjustment has no element of lateral movement in the grip arm in relation to the torso. The grip arm stays in natural alignment and the mechanics of the shooter are not adjusted. This is how I adjust for the application of english. Pretty sure I got that right. Please correct me with an explanation if I got it wrong.

Ok, so the above confirms my understand of #1 and how it compares to 2&3.


We're no different in the end goal and success.

See here is where I'm running into misguided conflicts in this thread. In perfect world I would like to believe every pool player would want flawless mechanics. We see endless comments on this forum about people either struggling to improve them or disheartened enough to consider abandoning the pursuit. IMO flawless mechanics aren't necessary but whatever they do it must be consistently repeatable or they're merely pissing in the wind.

I see a few mentions of how minor BHE adjustments for english actually are. However the rough math states that if you have a range of ~1.25" of tip placement on the CB. Then you will have roughly x4 that at the butt, so ~5". The only way that number at the butt becomes smaller, (assuming max english) is if you compensate with your torso. However that torso compensation isn't a part of BHE, it's correction for misalignment of the stroke.

I think there's a blending of varying methods into what BHE is. Just because your cue pivots at the bridge, does not mean you necessarily applying BHE. BHE is a deviation of a natural stroke in relation to the body.

This 100%... It appears we do the same adjustment for english. I don't have an element of BHE. I rotate my torso, (aka: move hips). My grip arm does not deviate from a natural/neutral stroking position.

Thanks again for the post

No problem...just trying to help.

I 100% think you do a form of BHE....perhaps what you do is actually better referenced as more a form of BTE (Back Torso English).......pretty much same same concepts....just slightly different application.

The only thing I would add is....Even though I am not Mr. Science...I am just average Joe Logic)....I would tend to think.........The deviation amounts your mentioning (at the butt) is not typically where someone would grip the cue......and (in the case of a CF) shaft...if one were to use a BHE method and bridge at the pivot point....it would be even further back from the tip......meaning the front tip would travel further in relation to the butt end...(or grip hand movement).....The result is the actual grip hand movement is not very much at all.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just because your cue pivots at the bridge, does not mean you necessarily applying BHE.

I think of the definition of BHE as simply the cue's angle at contact - crossing the centerball shot line at your bridge.

How you do it is important, but not part of my definition.

pj
chgo

 

[BRKNRUN]

Agree 100%. What I'm saying is the stroke and the body should be aligned on the same path/line. A lot of players learn to simply move their grip toward the body or away from the body to apply spin, which knocks the stroke off line with the body/stance. And they wonder why their stroke is inconsistent on certain shots.

It doesn't mean a player can't eventually get really good at playing with their stroke out of line with their body on certain shots, but I believe it's counterproductive to consistent stroke development.

Post #395 I tried to explain the theory (at least for me) why I think moving just the grip hand in or out slightly works for me.

My personal opinion is I want my set up and visual perception based on a fixed CBA alignment......If I am stroking across that line to a fixed point....(1 tip 2 tips) I still have the CBA alignment.......If my stroke were a bit wobbly that day and deviated..... it would naturally deviate back to the CBA alignment....I may not get the desired english...but I should still make the ball and continue my inning....(the method is self correcting as far as pocketing the ball)

We all strive for the perfect stroke....but even pro players strokes are off a bit........I come from a Golf background and I can tell you....It is very rare for a pro Golfer to have a perfect stroke every day for every shot....but they are set up so that even when they are only 80% that day...they can still perform.

My opinion is....I am not trying to get to a perfect stroke....I am trying to set myself up to where when my stroke is "off" I can still get around the table.

 

[BasementDweller]

So for the guys that get down on the center ball line:

After shooting hundreds of thousands of shots -- how do you force your mind to NOT get ahead of itself and jump from the center ball aim line to the required aim line? On the surface, it seems like a near impossibility to not veer towards that becoming a subconscious action that would happen on the approach to the table, instead of rigidly once one is down on the shot.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I just wonder if we are giving ourselves too much credit for our ability to self-reflect. In the past, I've been surprised at some of the things I've seen myself do on video. Even something as elementary as -- some shot choices I've made. It could very well be the case that I do something closer to what JV does, when on autopilot, than what I think I do.

What I'm getting at is observation of ourselves and others may be as telling as what we think we do.

 

[The_JV]

Selective bolding. It wouldnt be normal for me to shift my body after pivoting, but I cant say I dont pre-shift. But I dont want you to come away with wild gyration movement. Any movement would look like I’m just settling into my stance. The movements are so small, miles different than what people seem to be imagining. If I move my hips, we’re taking a move akin to doing a kegel exercise or just the effort to go down more on a shot. Well within any normal motion.

Apologies if you think the bolding was inappropriate. I prefer to leave comments in context but make an effort to highlight the key elements I'm going to respond to.

I highly doubt anyone notices my torso pivot either. They really don't have a frame of reference. Now if I was shift the butt of the cue back and forth ~5" isolated from my body, I doubt they'd miss it, but we both know that wouldn't happen when approaching a given shot.

I’m not sure where and to what intent this backhand english discussion has devolved. I do know that what people are describing about not being aligned, that’s useless noise. Forget about that since being misaligned isnt part of backhand english, unless for some strange reason people want it to be. That would be strange.

Unfortunately some default to throwing muddy water rather than continue a useful discussion. My stance has always been that BHE works fine to accomplish the end goal. HOWEVER, having a stroke position that can vary from +/-2.5" at the backhand is counter intuitive to building muscle memory required for consistent mechanics. I have yet read anything from anyone that leads me to believe otherwise. At best it's been suggested that the deviation from a neutral stroke (in relation to torso) is so minor that it's moot. I don't see how a potential swing of ~5" from one shot to another is non-issue when attempting to build mechanical consistency.

Thank you for your patience

 

[Cornerman]

Just because your cue pivots at the bridge, does not mean you necessarily applying BHE.

I'm unclear here of what you're saying. Backhand English is explicitly pivoting about your bridge hand to adjust the tip's direction. To make things strikingly confusing, this would be a direct Hal Houle quote when he taught me stick aiming:

"Start on the left part of the cueball and pivot to center with Backhand English."

The motion of the cue by moving the grip hand and pivoting the cue about the bridge hand *is* Backhand English. The actual offset when striking the tip on the cueball is English. The *movement* of the cue stick to determine that strike point is Backhand English.

BHE is a deviation of a natural stroke in relation to the body.

This isn't true. Backhand English is not a stroke nor is it a deviation of the natural stroke.

 

[The_JV]

I've been surprised by this thread. I didn't realize there were players who are at a minimum - very good amateurs, that come down on the center ball aim line and adjusted (however they do it) from there.

I'm wondering now if there are modern pros that do the same. I recognize some of the older guard did this or something very similar. Someone like Bustamante. I also wonder if it's the players that are down on the ball longer. Someone like Morra, Kaci, or Styer. I know Styer is a CTE guy but just talking about BHE.

I would think you could observe this on video, not that I've looked for it specifically. My hunch is the faster players are getting down really close to the required aim line as opposed to the center ball line.

My rate of play has ramped up over the last year. I equate this to two things.

1. I'm purposely attempting to play with confidence in my game.
2. Since completing my table reno. I will splash balls random balls when I happen passed it, and attempt the most difficult pattern I can construct. Not multiple racks. Just a handful or so and then move on with my day.

I used to be painfully slow, (30-40sec if not more). Not the typical pace around the table a few times, calculate space travel and end up hitting the obvious shot. ...but I was down on the shot a long time. This is purely driven by a lack of confidence and sweeping my aim in an attempt to trigger a "shot picture" from years gone by. I still played pretty sporty, but it took me a while to feel comfortable before puling the trigger, and I was very deliberate in the process.

These days I'm not running around, but I don't threaten shot clocks and my success rate might be a hair better. I think when a player can keep themselves in stroke over the course of days with extremely minor table time. Their process just simply becomes more automatic and they don't dwell on the "what ifs" during competition.

Some players are just slow. Some players take advantage of keeping their opponents in chairs. Some require additional focus to avoid mistakes.

 

[BasementDweller]

Apologies if you think the bolding was inappropriate. I prefer to leave comments in context but make an effort to highlight the key elements I'm going to respond to.

I highly doubt anyone notices my torso pivot either. They really don't have a frame of reference. Now if I was shift the butt of the cue back and forth ~5" isolated from my body, I doubt they'd miss it, but we both know that wouldn't happen when approaching a given shot.

I don't see how anyone can run from this math. If you get down on the center ball aim line and DON'T twist your torso or other parts of your body to compensate -- then the butt of the cue must move, and most likely a noticeable amount.

Unfortunately some default to throwing muddy water rather than continue a useful discussion. My stance has always been that BHE works fine to accomplish the end goal. HOWEVER, having a stroke position that can vary from +/-2.5" at the backhand is counter intuitive to building muscle memory required for consistent mechanics. I have yet read anything from anyone that leads me to believe otherwise. At best it's been suggested that the deviation from a neutral stroke (in relation to torso) is so minor that it's moot. I don't see how a potential swing of ~5" from one shot to another is non-issue when attempting to build mechanical consistency.

Thank you for your patience

I agree. Why does your logic not apply to the variable moving of the torso? If that step could be eliminated wouldn't that be a better practice? Guess it's all in the "if" to answer my own question. Maybe the center ball line is a more solid reference point. Guess I can also see how a moving torso wouldn't necessarily change the important part of the repeatable stroke. Hmmm. Just thinking this through.

 

[BC21]

Post #395 I tried to explain the theory (at least for me) why I think moving just the grip hand in or out slightly works for me.

My personal opinion is I want my set up and visual perception based on a fixed CBA alignment......If I am stroking across that line to a fixed point....(1 tip 2 tips) I still have the CBA alignment.......If my stroke were a bit wobbly that day and deviated..... it would naturally deviate back to the CBA alignment....I may not get the desired english...but I should still make the ball and continue my inning....(the method is self correcting as far as pocketing the ball)

We all strive for the perfect stroke....but even pro players strokes are off a bit........I come from a Golf background and I can tell you....It is very rare for a pro Golfer to have a perfect stroke every day for every shot....but they are set up so that even when they are only 80% that day...they can still perform.

My opinion is....I am not trying to get to a perfect stroke....I am trying to set myself up to where when my stroke is "off" I can still get around the table.

Excellent points.

 

[The_JV]

I don't know...I wonder if in an attempt to explain in detail, what one does at the table, they combine the subconscious and conscious parts of their routine. The finding of the center ball aim line just doesn't seem like something a "pro" would ever have to do consciously, since if they can't see that line then they probably aren't a pro, aside from the odd difficult shot. But maybe we all at least start with this subconsciously. Guess you'd have to in a hierarchical sense. So we are all building off of the same starting position. I'm guessing I see this overlap while standing, and adjust my body from there as I'm stepping into the shot.

I'm sure there's a blending of the parts. Much like how I step on the aim line with my back foot, but I don't mentally draw that line.

As far as what pros do. There's countless hours of pros on YT (Filler included) stepping over to the shot line, walking back to behind the CB, finding their aim while standing and then approaching the shot. That initial aim, is the "center CB aim". Now they have a substantial and brand spanking refreshed shot picture memory bank, so I'm with you that they are most likely landing on the shot with pretty darn near the exact applied and compensated english.

 

[The_JV]

So for the guys that get down on the center ball line:

After shooting hundreds of thousands of shots -- how do you force your mind to NOT get ahead of itself and jump from the center ball aim line to the required aim line? On the surface, it seems like a near impossibility to not veer towards that becoming a subconscious action that would happen on the approach to the table, instead of rigidly once one is down on the shot.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I just wonder if we are giving ourselves too much credit for our ability to self-reflect. In the past, I've been surprised at some of the things I've seen myself do on video. Even something as elementary as -- some shot choices I've made. It could very well be the case that I do something closer to what JV does, when on autopilot, than what I think I do.

What I'm getting at is observation of ourselves and others may be as telling as what we think we do.

That for me is the battle. There's an invisible line in the sand between being in effective auto-pilot mode and complacency. The misses that haunt me are the ones I took for granted.

It was those misses that slowed me down while on the shot. I didn't have a viable shot picture library to allow myself to free flow, so I forced myself into the conscious process. Now fast forward a bit after torturing my opponents with slow play. I'm more confident in my ability and have subsequently been allowing myself to deviate from the conscious approach. Giving up that conscious control is just as difficult for me as it was to not free flow.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Sure. I just think we can be wrong about what we are actually doing. All of us. I think we can probably come close to understanding it, but what our brains are actually doing when we get out of their way may be slightly or vastly different. For someone to "see" the entirety of the shot picture instantly, at least at times, tells me our subconscious mind is more powerful than we give it credit for.

But you still have to put the tip of the cue, the hands, the head/eyes, and the body in the right place or the perfect alignment for the shot picture goes...POOF!

 

[The_JV]

I'm unclear here of what you're saying. Backhand English is explicitly pivoting about your bridge hand to adjust the tip's direction.

I completely agree of your assessment of backhand english. What I'm saying is you can also pivot your cue on your bridge without altering your grip hand position in relation to your body.

Let me put it this way. You approach the table as if you're going to shoot a ball. Hand planted, ready to pull the trigger. Grip arm in a vertical orientation in relationship to your body. You then stand up adjust you feet so you've spun 10 degrees to the left. Approach as you did the time before and land you bridge hand in the identical position. You are now stroking the cue 10 degrees to the left from the original shot and your grip arm is vertical. If you compare the two alignments. Do you consider the second to be BHE adjustment of the first..?

Clearly it's not. Even though your bridge hand is identical. The two shots are stand alone otherwise. You grip arm is neutral (vertical). Your cue is pivoted in relation to the same point on the table. Rotating only your body to adjust cueing angle is not an application of BHE. Even though you have pivoted the cue in relation to the bridge.

The motion of the cue by moving the grip hand and pivoting the cue about the bridge hand *is* Backhand English. The actual offset when striking the tip on the cueball is English. The *movement* of the cue stick to determine that strike point is Backhand English.

Completely agree

This isn't true. Backhand English is not a stroke nor is it a deviation of the natural stroke.

I didn't call BHE a specific stroke. However it is 100% a deviation of natural/neutral stroke. Otherwise you'd be placing no more english on the CB then you would if no adjustment is made.

To me, we've fallen into a discussion over semantics. You consider an upper body rotation which causes the cue to pivot at the bridge an application of BHE. I do not. We have common ground. We're just on opposite sides of the fence.

 

[The_JV]

I don't see how anyone can run from this math. If you get down on the center ball aim line and DON'T twist your torso or other parts of your body to compensate -- then the butt of the cue must move, and most likely a noticeable amount.

Right..?

I agree. Why does your logic not apply to the variable moving of the torso? If that step could be eliminated wouldn't that be a better practice? Guess it's all in the "if" to answer my own question. Maybe the center ball line is a more solid reference point. Guess I can also see how a moving torso wouldn't necessarily change the important part of the repeatable stroke. Hmmm. Just thinking this through.

Exactly... yes the torso rotation is just as relative to the bridge as pure BHE. However the alignment of the grip arm (including wrist) remains consistent regardless of the amount of pivot and direction. That's the whole point, and why my stance is that a torso pivot is not equivalent to BHE. BHE has an inherent flaw in developing reliable mechanics.