1 Pocket - 1-Rail vs. 3-Rail Kicks

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
Here's the same layout I showed in another thread ("1 Pocket Dramedy"), but for a different purpose.

Let's assume that the shot you choose is to kick behind the 7 ball (near opponent's pocket) for a safety, accepting the fact that you may take a scratch for not hitting the 7, but also wanting to avoid scratching in the pocket at all costs.

If I chose to kick behind the 7, I'd choose the one-rail kick off the head rail (the red line below). Lou Figueroa, whose 1 pocket opinions I heartily respect, says he'd choose the three-rail kick off the far side rail instead (the black line below). [Note: Of course, my "one-rail" kick and Lou's "three-rail" kick will probably turn out to be my two-rail kick and Lou's four-rail-kick because both will likely reach the opposite long rail.]

I'd like to know the specific pros and cons of each. Lou, Jay, Doc, Barber, Ghost, etc.? What's the thinking? Does one risk scratching in the pocket more than the other? Is one more difficult/less accurate than the other?

Let the barking begin...

Thanks,

pj <- woof
chgo

(This is the same layout as in the "1 Pocket Dramedy" thread.)

CueTable Help

 
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I don't pretend to have the 1p smarts of the other posters on the Board, but I'd like to play them all some 3c!

The 3 rail kick, Imo is more accurate if you have an accurate read on the table, ie: is it 'short/ long' and speed.

On my table, I can get w/in an inch or 2 on the 3 railer in question.

For the 1 railer, the only reference point available is the 1/2way point between start point and line thru rail contact point and parallel point.
 
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I'd venture to guess that most people will elect the 1-rail because you avoid the traffic. If you happen to go long with the 3-railer, that's serious trouble. If you go long on the 1-railer, it's not likely to be quite as serious. Some will say it's also easier to control/judge the speed off 1 rail, as opposed to 3.
 
Black-Balled said:
I don't pretend to have the 1p smarts of the other posters on the Board, but I'd like to play them all some 3c!

The 3 rail kick, Imo is more accurate if you have an accurate read on the table, ie: is it 'short/ long' and speed.

On my table, I can get w/in an inch or 2 on the 3 railer in question.

For the 1 railer, the only reference point available is the 1/2way point between start point and line thru rail contact point and parallel point.
Click to expand...

Exactly and your odds of shooting a turd and scratching in the pocket are much greater when shooting the 1 rail kick as opposed to the 3 railer

When it boils down to it the 3 rail is better than the 1 rail....its safer and no harder to shoot.

-Grey Ghost
 
I would think the 1 rail kick would have more of a chance of coming off the last rail, hitting the 7 thin, and then scratching ... where as the 3 rail kick comes into (and out of) the last rail at a different angle with less likely of a chance to accidentally scratch.

Either is a possible shot, I just think the odds are a bit safer with the 3 rail kick.
 
3R has a reasonable chance of going wrong and hitting the 2--a possible game ender. That risk is completely avoided by the 1R.
 
My comments were concerning the contact point...but the angle of approach is also important to consider. Excellent addition.

The interweb is cool.
 
1 pocket 1 vs 3

I am not a champion but I can kick like a pro and in my opinion if you can't kick the 3 railer correctly you can't kick the 1 Railer correctly either. To me there is a lot more danger in the 1 railer and you have to hit it better than you do the other shot. from the diagram it even looks like you could scratch if you came in at the perfect speed and missed the 7 . If you can't kick with precision, rolling up on the 15 ball is a horrible shot but at least it won't cost you the game. {Not right away at least}
 
My $.02

I have to agree with Lou Figueroa on this one and I am not sure why a lot of One hole players don't.
Before you play on a table see if it plays long or short this takes the risk out of 3 rail kicks (adjust accordingly).
Don "The Preacher" Feeney gives the answers to your kicking question from this position on the tape that he and Bert Kinister made. The CB is at CB position Diamond number 4 and shooting to (thru) First rail contact Diamond number 1 makes your 3rd rail contact Diamond number 3 (1+3=4) and there is no scratch if CALCULATED correctly. Coming off Diamond number 3 gives you your hit on the 7 ball. From your earlier test of if the table is playing long or short you can hit the 7 ball in front, in back, on the left or right side. All Test are easy if you know the answers. Now that is just the way I see it others may see 2 rails differently.
 
Black-Balled:
For the 1 railer, the only reference point available is the 1/2way point between start point and line thru rail contact point and parallel point.
Click to expand...
I can hit the one-railer very accurately using the measurement you describe and adjusting (1 inch short of the center point on the foot rail = 2 inches short of the CB's "mirror position" on the opposite long rail). Also, at such a steep angle and hitting only one rail there's very little "rail effect" to take into account.

Maybe if I was more familiar with the 3-rail tracks...

pj
chgo
 
GetMeThere said:
3R has a reasonable chance of going wrong and hitting the 2--a possible game ender. That risk is completely avoided by the 1R.
Click to expand...

The three rail kick is a very reasonable and fairly safe shot if you are a decent one pocket player. It is a pretty easy shot to line up. Also, the angle in would be much flatter, decreasing the chance of a glance into the pocket (not to mention if there is any spin on the ball, it will kill on the fourth rail, further decreasing the chance of a scratch).

Ideal positioning will have the cueball frozen to the seven, effectively switching the break. Even if you go past the seven, the other balls are lined up in such a way that they can't be banked back into the opponent's hole.

I would play to leave the cueball under the seven. If you leave it high, there are too many returns. I would expect my opponent to bank the eight into the stack and leave me frozen behind the twelve.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Here's the same layout I showed in another thread ("1 Pocket Dramedy"), but for a different purpose.

Let's assume that the shot you choose is to kick behind the 7 ball (near opponent's pocket) for a safety, accepting the fact that you may take a scratch for not hitting the 7, but also wanting to avoid scratching in the pocket at all costs.

If I chose to kick behind the 7, I'd choose the one-rail kick off the head rail (the red line below). Lou Figueroa, whose 1 pocket opinions I heartily respect, says he'd choose the three-rail kick off the far side rail instead (the black line below). [Note: Of course, my "one-rail" kick and Lou's "three-rail" kick will probably turn out to be my two-rail kick and Lou's four-rail-kick because both will likely reach the opposite long rail.]

I'd like to know the specific pros and cons of each. Lou, Jay, Doc, Barber, Ghost, etc.? What's the thinking? Does one risk scratching in the pocket more than the other? Is one more difficult/less accurate than the other?

Let the barking begin...

Thanks,

pj <- woof
chgo

(This is the same layout as in the "1 Pocket Dramedy" thread.)

CueTable Help

Click to expand...


I think somewhere in the literature it's been said that the more rails you go the easier it is to predict the speed, or at least that the cue ball will come out the same place. (I wish Ron participated here, because I believe he's addressed this a few times on RSB.) Maybe Bob will toss in his 2 cents.

I'm sure everyone has seen the proposition shot where the shooter sets a coin on top of a ball on the spot and says he's going to go seven rails, touch the ball on the spot, and not make the coin fall to the table -- it's sort of the same thing: the three-railer is less prone to failure because it is less sensitive to variations (or sumthin' like that -- I'll let the science guys explain). So you're a dead cinch to come up behind the seven and leave the udder guy very tough.

No down side. It's worth the foul.

Lou Figueroa
 
PaulieB said:
I would think the 1 rail kick would have more of a chance of coming off the last rail, hitting the 7 thin, and then scratching ... where as the 3 rail kick comes into (and out of) the last rail at a different angle with less likely of a chance to accidentally scratch.

Either is a possible shot, I just think the odds are a bit safer with the 3 rail kick.
Click to expand...

This is the main difference I see, and shooting the 1-railer I'd try to avoid the possibility of scratching in the pocket by trying to not go that far.

Is the 3-railer a lot safer from the pocket scratch because of the angle of approach?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'd like to know the specific pros and cons of each. Lou, Jay, Doc, Barber, Ghost, etc.? What's the thinking?

Thanks,

pj
chgo
Click to expand...



Hey Pat.....You're supposed to be asking us this over @ onepocket.org...:eek:...:cool:



Black-Balled said:
I don't pretend to have the 1p smarts of the other posters on the Board, but I'd like to play them all some 3c!
Click to expand...



Hey Black-Balled....first just let me make clear that this is friendly woofing :) that said, if we're ever in the same city, I'd be glad to play you a '1-and-1' - a set of One Pocket and a 3c match.

- Ghost



Lastly, I want to say that I always do exactly as Lou posted/does before playing a serious match on a strange table, such as at the DCC...I test out the 2 and 3-rail angles, shooting 2-in-the-corner and 3-in-the-corner banks and lags..and also twice-cross-corner banks...I highly recommend doing this...for One Pocket, this is more important to me then practicing pocketing balls straight in.

- Ghost
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Is the 3-railer a lot safer from the pocket scratch because of the angle of approach?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I think so, yes. Your final aiming point is actually to hit the 4th rail, and barely bump the 7 to the rail. (right?) You would have to hit the 7 VERY thinly off the 4th rail to scratch...with the one railer you can hit the ball practically anywhere and go in the drink.

Maybe it's just because I've played a lot of one pocket, but I would trust that I could execute that shot more times out of a hundred than the one railer.

(Assuming that it's a table that I've had a chance to shoot a few kicks on)
 
Both shots are workable for a one pocket player. In the other thread the two ball looked like it might be a problem to get around it.

There is less chance for a scratch with the three railer.

But in either case if I was playing either of these two shots I would not play to satisfy a good hit. I would be playing just to get the cue ball to a safe spot. In both shots the scratch into the pocket becomes high percentage if you try to get a rail after contacting the seven ball.
 
In this particular situation I'd choose the one rail over the 3 rail simply because the cueball is on the rail. You can hit closer to center ball thus avoid swerve more easily. If the cueball was off the rail more it might be different.
 
cuesmith said:
In this particular situation I'd choose the one rail over the 3 rail simply because the cueball is on the rail. You can hit closer to center ball thus avoid swerve more easily. If the cueball was off the rail more it might be different.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, this is exactly why I would choose the 3 railer in this case, because the cue ball is on the side rail up 2 diamonds. It is much harder to estimate the 1 rail kick for such a small target once you leave the end rail where it is simple to divide the 1st rail by 2. Plus the margin for error is greater w/the 3 railer, especially for speed purposes.

The one railer if hit perfectly, has to be the perfect speed to avoid the scratch or coming up a hair short allowing your opponent to see the 12, 8 or 6 after the shot (assuming it's hit hard enough so they cannot cut a ball into their pocket). The 3 railer would be hit with running english anyway so there is no additional swerve affect on the cue ball regardless of where it is. That would only be important if you had to make a ball from that position using that inside stuff.

And, 1 Pocket Ghost, I'm in for that '1-and-1' if we ever meet - just some friendly woofin :).

Dave
 
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