14.1 Stats -- John Schmidt's Run of 434 on Video, December 2018

I'm with you there Bob. I've never seen a good cue ball act that way. Spin alone won't do that, unless it came out of Mike Massey's hand. :thumbup:
I agree with you guys that "ball turn" alone might not be the only factor. Table roll off close to the corner, directional cloth weave, cloth or slate imperfections, dirt on the ball or cloth, a bulging red dot, and many other things could also be contributing factors, as described on the ball turn resource page.

Regards,
Dave
 
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I'm with you there Bob. I've never seen a good cue ball act that way. Spin alone won't do that, unless it came out of Mike Massey's hand. :thumbup:

That's a good point, Jay. Massey's finger pool does produce such turns (and more!). Maybe such a turn is also possible for a CB struck with a cue and bouncing off the rack.
 
I asked this once before but nobody replied. Isn't there someone in one of these various threads who was running this thing for John, or is at least close enough to it that he could just go find the ball and let us know if any measles are bulging?
 
I asked this once before but nobody replied. Isn't there someone in one of these various threads who was running this thing for John, or is at least close enough to it that he could just go find the ball and let us know if any measles are bulging?

Maybe that ball had a case of the Measles! I know, I know. Bad joke :grin:
 
I asked this once before but nobody replied. Isn't there someone in one of these various threads who was running this thing for John, or is at least close enough to it that he could just go find the ball and let us know if any measles are bulging?

The plan in progress is to get the cue ball.
 
Maybe silicone or wax on the cue ball. John has used these items to load up the cue ball many times before.
 
It was the ghost of Mosconi!

We can now call unexplainable, extreme curvature of CB path the 'Mosconi Effect'


:p


JS said it was chalk, but we did not see an abrupt change of direction which is what chalk does. But what kind of chalk? He said a piece of chalk.

What if it was just a layer of chalk instead? When I shoot certain draw shot drills using the same ball positions, the area where the cue-ball is setup gets a dusting or coating of chalk. Would something like this (not pieces of chalk, but a smear of chalk dust) allow the spin to "grab" more?

From the video I can't tell. Too far, not enough resolution.


I still think the biggest factor here is a slate imperfection. Whether it is a very slight groove or imperfection in the slate, or an issue with the the level....it has got to be a slate issue.

Slate can have dips in it in small areas of various sizes. On any of the 3 pieces of slate, any corner or even an area in the center of any single piece of slate can have a depression or slight rise. Slate can also be warped. Slate can have a dip across the surface, or it can be bowed upwards across the surface. Or it can be perfectly flat 90% of it's width or length, then it can bend downward or upward the last 10% ...I've seen this before.

How a slate is leveled matters as well as the levels used. If the mechanic is using a 12" Starrett machinist level and plants it in the middle of the slate, then turns it 90 degrees to level the other way, that will NOT suffice to catch the above issues.

Or, if they place the level on the 4 sides of a slate, that won't do it either. You'd have to do all the sides, the center in both directions, and the diagonals. In all directions. Or better yet, use multiple levels and still check all directions.

Also...12" level may span a depression in the slate that a 6" or 8" can detect. Most mechanics I've seen use a 12" because it is faster and simpler. It give more of an "average" of level. Because once you use a 6" on a slate, you quickly discover everything I just said - dips, rises and warps. It's a lot more common than people might think. It can get aggravating, tedious and almost pointless to use a short level like that as you will be chasing level back and forth the slate all day long and in the end you can't get it perfect. Sometimes you can fix areas by drilling holes and anchoring. Some will sand down the slate. A very bad piece of slate that has too many ups and downs just needs to be replaced. Most of the time, slight imperfections will not translate to any noticeable ball roll off. Another reason the shorter levels are not the main tool of choice.


Dr Dave did show the ball-turn effect. We should acknowledge it is at least part of that factor since the CB had a lot juice on it. However, it does not explain that much of a radical curve especially in the late stages of the CB's movement.


Figure, high spin ball-turn effect along with a level or slate issue magnified it to create that severe turn in CB path. Has to be multiple factors working together.


A slate issue can easily go undetected. In 14.1 there's not a whole lot of slow-roll ball action either CB or OB in that area of the table...so it could have gone "under the radar" until exposed at the worst possible time.


JS should slow roll some balls at various angles toward that area and see if there's some roll off or strange CB movement.
 
The bulging measles dot gyroscopic effect theory is plausible....but how much can it possibly bulge without being noticed or effecting general play - and if so, would that amount be a significant amount of unbalanced mass to move the CB that much off course?

I don't think so.

If that were the case, we would see thee CB doing strange things anytime JS hit any kind of spin shot which he did often.


Wouldn't we have seen the curve begin earlier in the CB movement? Or perhaps the bulge, due to cloth friction as the ball rolled downtable, had finally turned to an effective axis to begin moving it off course?

Say the bulge is on the north south axis, this won't effect as much if the CB is moving in the same direction as that axis. Whereas if the ball is moving north south, but the bulge is spinning perpendicular to that.....


But going back to the mass. How much can a measles bulge? If slight, what percentage of the overall mass of the whole CB would that be? It would be a tiny fraction. Is that enough to move a CB that much?

Might be able to simulate that by sticking something on the CB. Although that is not an exact test since that is adding mass as opposed to the same mass, but slightly bulged in one small area....
 
FYI, possible explanations and demonstrations can be found in this video:

NV J.16 - Did “Ball Turn” Deny John Schmidt (434) Willie Mosconi’s Straight Pool Record (526)?

and on the "ball turn" resource page.

Regards,
Dave

IMHO THAT 'turn' was not debris related as the CB did not turn suddenly but rather it near perfectly 'arced' into the pocket at the end of its momentum. There was only one moment when i got a clear glance at the CB 'spinning' and it seemed to be doing so only slightly-certainly not enough to change the ball's course. Mike Massey would have trouble making a CB do that on the video.

From my rank amateur standpoint, that looked table related-either levelness or cloth issues. I dont think an out of round CB would wait til the last moments of a fairly slow 7 foot roll to show its effects and if it were out of round that much, it would have showed up earlier in the run. You could say that the hard break shot was the last straw to make that CB out of round but again-I dont see it acting like that.

In all the pool i have watched I've never seen a ball move like that and I have seen shitty conditions a zillion times.

PS-I never passed a Physics course.

PPS-I (me me me) would not recognize a high run made on that table
 
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Well, perhaps he fell victim to his own doings. The entire table set-up looks suspect to me. Just look at the first rack the ten and twelve balls miss the pocket by a good margin but somehow come off the cushion and roll froward toward a very large pocket opening and fall in! I am sorry folks, but those are misses on any competitive tables that I have seen. This happens about 20 times during this "run". It is NOT just the pocket openings, it is the way the slates seem to pull the object balls toward the pocket mouth. Were they honed down a bit??? Also, never seen racks open so much on some softer breaks that do not even hit the rack in ideal spots- how much are the balls greased , together with having a heater under the slates and super fast napless cloth? John is skilled enough to keep the cue ball far enough away from the pockets at slow speeds to avoid a scratch on this type of set up- all he had to do was get the object balls CLOSE enough to the pockets at slow speeds and they went in! There is an object ball in the middle of the "run" that missed the upper left pocket by a very wide margin, but somehow floated in. So the cue ball followed perhaps some "man-made" path to the upper right pocket??? Only a few know for sure- not certain of any of this, not accusing anyone of anything, not judging, just saying what I SEE when viewing this video.
 
Thanks for the video. My only comment on this, besides giving John his due as the best current U.S. 14.1 player; is that the table has ridiculously large pockets with a very shallow shelf on those pockets. His very first shot of the run misses by a quarter diamond and bounces into the pocket! And also, Look at his shot in the first rack with 5 balls left on the table- he misses the 10 ball on a slow roll by a mile and it still dribbles into the pocket! Also the side pocket openings- that half moon shadow if you will) are VERY visible from the video view, demonstrating the lack of angle into those pockets and larger size of the opening as it protrudes well beyond the side pocket points, even on camera! I do appreciate John's 14.1 abilities, but, come on, what's next in this attempt at 527 in 2019- six inch pockets and smaller pool balls??? I just am not buying this- it has become a circus event; in my own opinion.
The 10-ball and 12-ball shot in the first rack you refer to, are shots that would go in 100% of the time on 5-inch pockets, hit it at the soft speed as he hit them. If an object ball is resting 2+ diamonds from the corner pocket and no more than 3-4 inches off the side rail and on an easy paced shot the object ball contacts the side rail 1/4 to even 1/2 diamond up from the pocket, of course it's going to go in! I don't know what size pockets you are accustomed to playing on to feel these shots shouldn't have gone in?

There were numerous shots that fell on the 4-5/8" corner pockets at the 2018 Mosconi Cup Rasson table that were far more sloppy and questionable than any of the balls I saw fall on this run, I can only assume was due to the newly installed cloth at the Mosconi Cup. Anyways, a player of John's ability knows exactly how forgiving the pockets are, and he is often intentionally "cheating the pocket" to get the cue ball closer to the desired location he wants to get it for his next shot.
 
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It is NOT just the pocket openings, it is the way the slates seem to pull the object balls toward the pocket mouth. Were they honed down a bit???

how much are the balls greased , together with having a heater under the slates and super fast napless cloth?

not accusing anyone of anything, not judging, just saying what I SEE when viewing this video.

Slates honed, balls greased, heater under the slates and super fast, napless cloth.

It sounds like you are saying the table was intentionally manipulated to make it much easier, and the shooter knew what he was doing - and knew how it was manipulated, and "skilled enough to keep the cue ball far enough away from the pockets at slow speeds to avoid a scratch on this type of set up."

It would be helpful, since the video is over 2 hours in length, if you could post clips or cite times when the suspect ball movements occur.
 
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It was the ghost of Mosconi!

We can now call unexplainable, extreme curvature of CB path the 'Mosconi Effect'


:p


JS said it was chalk, but we did not see an abrupt change of direction which is what chalk does. But what kind of chalk? He said a piece of chalk.

What if it was just a layer of chalk instead? When I shoot certain draw shot drills using the same ball positions, the area where the cue-ball is setup gets a dusting or coating of chalk. Would something like this (not pieces of chalk, but a smear of chalk dust) allow the spin to "grab" more?

From the video I can't tell. Too far, not enough resolution.


I still think the biggest factor here is a slate imperfection. Whether it is a very slight groove or imperfection in the slate, or an issue with the the level....it has got to be a slate issue.

Slate can have dips in it in small areas of various sizes. On any of the 3 pieces of slate, any corner or even an area in the center of any single piece of slate can have a depression or slight rise. Slate can also be warped. Slate can have a dip across the surface, or it can be bowed upwards across the surface. Or it can be perfectly flat 90% of it's width or length, then it can bend downward or upward the last 10% ...I've seen this before.

How a slate is leveled matters as well as the levels used. If the mechanic is using a 12" Starrett machinist level and plants it in the middle of the slate, then turns it 90 degrees to level the other way, that will NOT suffice to catch the above issues.

Or, if they place the level on the 4 sides of a slate, that won't do it either. You'd have to do all the sides, the center in both directions, and the diagonals. In all directions. Or better yet, use multiple levels and still check all directions.

Also...12" level may span a depression in the slate that a 6" or 8" can detect. Most mechanics I've seen use a 12" because it is faster and simpler. It give more of an "average" of level. Because once you use a 6" on a slate, you quickly discover everything I just said - dips, rises and warps. It's a lot more common than people might think. It can get aggravating, tedious and almost pointless to use a short level like that as you will be chasing level back and forth the slate all day long and in the end you can't get it perfect. Sometimes you can fix areas by drilling holes and anchoring. Some will sand down the slate. A very bad piece of slate that has too many ups and downs just needs to be replaced. Most of the time, slight imperfections will not translate to any noticeable ball roll off. Another reason the shorter levels are not the main tool of choice.


Dr Dave did show the ball-turn effect. We should acknowledge it is at least part of that factor since the CB had a lot juice on it. However, it does not explain that much of a radical curve especially in the late stages of the CB's movement.


Figure, high spin ball-turn effect along with a level or slate issue magnified it to create that severe turn in CB path. Has to be multiple factors working together.


A slate issue can easily go undetected. In 14.1 there's not a whole lot of slow-roll ball action either CB or OB in that area of the table...so it could have gone "under the radar" until exposed at the worst possible time.


JS should slow roll some balls at various angles toward that area and see if there's some roll off or strange CB movement.

Best guess, final gearing spin with a dirty cue ball, catching the thick nap at the table head with an old slate dip near the shelf.
 
Well, perhaps he fell victim to his own doings. The entire table set-up looks suspect to me. Just look at the first rack the ten and twelve balls miss the pocket by a good margin but somehow come off the cushion and roll froward toward a very large pocket opening and fall in! I am sorry folks, but those are misses on any competitive tables that I have seen. This happens about 20 times during this "run". It is NOT just the pocket openings, it is the way the slates seem to pull the object balls toward the pocket mouth. Were they honed down a bit??? Also, never seen racks open so much on some softer breaks that do not even hit the rack in ideal spots- how much are the balls greased , together with having a heater under the slates and super fast napless cloth? John is skilled enough to keep the cue ball far enough away from the pockets at slow speeds to avoid a scratch on this type of set up- all he had to do was get the object balls CLOSE enough to the pockets at slow speeds and they went in! There is an object ball in the middle of the "run" that missed the upper left pocket by a very wide margin, but somehow floated in. So the cue ball followed perhaps some "man-made" path to the upper right pocket??? Only a few know for sure- not certain of any of this, not accusing anyone of anything, not judging, just saying what I SEE when viewing this video.

This part:
not accusing anyone of anything
is BS.

You're pretty clearly calling John a cheater. I'm not sure what your deal is, but slandering someone like that takes pretty big balls. If it was me you were talking about, I'd take it very personally. Tarnishing a person's reputation without cause is pretty low, especially when that person's reputation is what puts food on his table.
 
No. There are no gyroscopic effects with a perfect sphere. Now, if the CB has a bulging red dot, then it is no longer a perfect sphere, and there could be gyroscopic effects (like a top).

Regards,
Dave

Dr. Dave, with all due respect, a perfect sphere is as elusive as an ideal diode. In my estimation there is no cue ball, on no table known to man, that approaches a perfect sphere, or, a gyroscope rotor that doesn't exhibit precession.

I say this, in part, because none of these essential characteristics exist in billiards:
  1. The cue ball's internal density is absolutely uniform;
  2. the cue ball's surface is perfectly smooth;
  3. the table surface is perfectly flat;
  4. the contact between the ball and table is frictionless.

To the extent that these characteristics do not exist, and to the extent they vary from perfection, the spinning ball will exhibit gyroscopic precession.

Not so?

I'm not saying the curve we see is due entirely to precession, or to precession at all. I'm just saying that the cue ball and table system is so far from perfect that it cannot be ruled out categorically.

I think it would be interesting to analyze the vide further, and try to determine, precisely, the location of the spin axis of the ball, and it's displacement from the table contact point. I postulate that there's a small offset that can account for the curve.

A couple of interesting articles:
https://einstein.stanford.edu/TECH/technology1.html
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a76f/15e9cca959e2768a52e4058e81048bdcd245.pdf
 
The plan in progress is to get the cue ball.
If you have time and access, please also check for table levelness (roll off) close to that corner pocket.

And if you have the time and interest, try to duplicate the stop shot "ball turn" experiment in my video to try to simulate John's shot with a good CB.

Thanks,
Dave
 
If you have time and access, please also check for table levelness (roll off) close to that corner pocket.

And if you have the time and interest, try to duplicate the stop shot "ball turn" experiment in my video to try to simulate John's shot with a good CB.

Thanks,
Dave

With a good CB and table-That shot will never be duplicated.
 
Dr. Dave, with all due respect, a perfect sphere is as elusive as an ideal diode. In my estimation there is no cue ball, on no table known to man, that approaches a perfect sphere, or, a gyroscope rotor that doesn't exhibit precession.

I say this, in part, because none of these essential characteristics exist in billiards:
  1. The cue ball's internal density is absolutely uniform;
  2. the cue ball's surface is perfectly smooth;
  3. the table surface is perfectly flat;
  4. the contact between the ball and table is frictionless.

To the extent that these characteristics do not exist, and to the extent they vary from perfection, the spinning ball will exhibit gyroscopic precession.
Agreed. No CB is a "perfect sphere." However, for all practical purposes, any relatively new, decent-quality CB is so close to a perfect sphere that any gyroscopic effects will be ridiculously minuscule and certainly not noticeable.

Regards,
Dave
 
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