2014 US Open 9-Ball Championship: 128-player field, $1,000 entry fee

[realkingcobra]

Agree that is a good idea, raises money, strengthens the field, and makes for a better tournament for the fans. However will local tours ban people who make the cut ?

Actually no, but what it does do is open the doors to other major events doing skill level testing pryor to each event, as a way of re-shuffuling the deck of cards before passing them out again. Just because a player today made the cut to a major event, don't mean they'll make the cut to the next big event. As more and more players get involved with skill level testing, the cut gets harder and harder to make for any lesser players, which means only the best are going to be playing....the real "Pro's" That is how you create a Pro and Semi-Pro tour. The semi-pro's are the ones that just missed out making the cutoff for the pro event, but they scored higher than most everyone else did.

Glen

 

[CSykes24]

Actually no, but what it does do is open the doors to other major events doing skill level testing pryor to each event, as a way of re-shuffuling the deck of cards before passing them out again. Just because a player today made the cut to a major event, don't mean they'll make the cut to the next big event. As more and more players get involved with skill level testing, the cut gets harder and harder to make for any lesser players, which means only the best are going to be playing....the real "Pro's" That is how you create a Pro and Semi-Pro tour. The semi-pro's are the ones that just missed out making the cutoff for the pro event, but they scored higher than most everyone else did.

Glen

Who's to say you can't lie on your scores? And if your reply back is "video tape it and send it in", then who/what governing force will be able to moderate and watch all of those films? Of "hundreds" of players?

 

[JAM]

I'm surprised at you Jam for supporting a construct like this. We used to call this "betting on the if come." A helluva way to run a major pool tournament. I will tell you one thing and you can ask your partner if it's true. He should know. Any and every tournament I ever put on, ALL the added money was in an account with the entry fee money from day one!

Jay, I am not supporting anything. I am grateful to have a tournament on the East Coast and especially one of this caliber.

I realize you are angry with Barry from the last Open you officiated and have stated on this forum you would never go there again. It is very admirable that all your money is in place in the tournaments that you run. You should be commended for that.

I do not want to see the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship die. The tournament was too big, I think, with the 250-some player field. Logistically and financially, it was/is a nightmare. Barry has made some adjustments for this year by cutting the field in half. I have to give credit when credit is due.

He also stated the money for the payouts would be in escrow at Suntrust bank for all to see.

About the "if come" or "come if," in any industry, of course, this isn't a good business model to follow. If it was me, I'd borrow 50 grand and hope I get it back at the conclusion of the tournament based on gate fees, vendor booth rentals, business at Q-Masters, and VIP seating.

Speaking of Q-Masters, Barry's pool room, I have never heard of anyone complaining about not getting paid, and I imagine they have many employees.

In sum, I want the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship to continue, and so does Keith. We both like this venue, and we both like Barry. He has never treated us badly. The man has done a heck of a lot more in trying to make things right, much more than Bonus Ball and the so-called World Pool Organization and the BCA organization, the entity that is supposed to be the North American representative to the WPA. He has issued press releases well in advance of the tournament. He has taken the advice of others and effected changes for the better. He listens and makes changes. I'm going to root for Barry to succeed and keep the tradition of the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship going.

Besides, Keith still believes he can win it. :yes:

 

[naji]

I like the idea of skill level tesing players to first see if they have what it takes to play, and that can be done in a thousand places around the world, without a player having to travel to compete and spend a bunch of money for nothing. If it were done my way, all 256 players that get to play would win something back!!! Testing could be performed in thousands of pool rooms around the world, bring in business to all the pool rooms that offer the skill level testing. Not only that, the scores would for the first time in history, set some kind of bar as to what is considered to be playin on a PRO level, you know like....test your skills against the rated scores of the top 256 players in the world, then YOU know where you stand as a player!!!

Any test that does not involve hard earned money is not going to be accurate. Many players repeatedly say i shoot the light out when practice, and suck in a match or money game; this is the uniqueness about pool. Plus i highly recommend the tests be done on snooker tables for pool players; that is the ultimate test. Do not forget it has to be same exact equipment for all players (tables, cues, balls, cloth, weather, you name it!)

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, I am not supporting anything. I am grateful to have a tournament on the East Coast and especially one of this caliber.

I realize you are angry with Barry from the last Open you officiated and have stated on this forum you would never go there again. It is very admirable that all your money is in place in the tournaments that you run. You should be commended for that.

I do not want to see the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship die. The tournament was too big, I think, with the 250-some player field. Logistically and financially, it was/is a nightmare. Barry has made some adjustments for this year by cutting the field in half. I have to give credit when credit is due.

He also stated the money for the payouts would be in escrow at Suntrust bank for all to see.

About the "if come" or "come if," in any industry, of course, this isn't a good business model to follow. If it was me, I'd borrow 50 grand and hope I get it back at the conclusion of the tournament based on gate fees, vendor booth rentals, business at Q-Masters, and VIP seating.

Speaking of Q-Masters, Barry's pool room, I have never heard of anyone complaining about not getting paid, and I imagine they have many employees.

In sum, I want the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship to continue, and so does Keith. We both like this venue, and we both like Barry. He has never treated us badly. The man has done a heck of a lot more in trying to make things right, much more than Bonus Ball and the so-called World Pool Organization and the BCA organization, the entity that is supposed to be the North American representative to the WPA. He has issued press releases well in advance of the tournament. He has taken the advice of others and effected changes for the better. He listens and makes changes. I'm going to root for Barry to succeed and keep the tradition of the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship going.

Besides, Keith still believes he can win it. :yes:

Another year, same pre-tourney promises and we will have the same outcome; bounced checks, late payments (if at all), lie after lie. And some of the players keep coming back hoping for a different outcome. It's like Linus and Lucy with the football.

My point is if we want professional pool to be truly professional we don't need shady promoters running the events! We need legitimate events run by professional people/organizations! I will only work to create tournaments like that, where the prize money is guaranteed, not "promised."

Why should a player who has traveled at some expense to play in an event, have to wonder when and if he will get paid? That's my point. You of all people Jam, should want integrity in our sport, not more back room nonsense. I guess I forgot that you supported Trudough as well, even after it took years for people to get paid. Look where he is now. I saw though him early on and knew he was a shyster.

My point remains we don't need people like this to make our sport successful. We need LEGITIMACY, not more con men! I'll take Barry Hearn every day over people like this.

 

[JAM]

Another year, same pre-tourney promises and we will have the same outcome; bounced checks, late payments (if at all), lie after lie. And some of the players keep coming back hoping for a different outcome. It's like Linus and Lucy with the football.

My point is if we want professional pool to be truly professional we don't need shady promoters running the events! We need legitimate events run by professional people/organizations! I will only work to create tournaments like that, where the prize money is guaranteed, not "promised."

Why should a player who has traveled at some expense to play in an event, have to wonder when and if he will get paid? That's my point. You of all people Jam, should want integrity in our sport, not more back room nonsense. I guess I forgot that you supported Trudough as well, even after it took years for people to get paid. Look where he is now. I saw though him early on and knew he was a shyster.

My point remains we don't need people like this to make our sport successful. We need LEGITIMACY, not more con men! I'll take Barry Hearn every day over people like this.

Keith also supported Kevin Trudeau and the IPT adventure. It is not just me. We both had a good experience. I'm sorry that you did not. I remember the first time you and I met. It was at the IPT North American Championship in Vegas, which was won by Thorsten Hohmann. Thorsten did pocket 350 large, Jay. Not too shabby.

You did encounter a beef with the IPT because, if memory serves me right, the qualifiers. I can't remember it fully, but I do know that after that time, you were anti-IPT all the way. For Keith and others, however, the IPT offered hope.

Since that time, I have seen other pool tournaments being funded by monies made from taking advantage of the poor, sick, and elderly, but nobody says anything about it. That money spends fine, I guess. During the subprime mortgage debacle in 2008, which brought our economy to a recession, there were pool peeps who made their fortunes on the helpless. These same folks were well respected on this forum, put on a pedestal, big talkers, high-rolling gamblers in The Action Room. Everybody welcomed them -- and their dough -- with open arms. To me, Jay, this is a double standard, but I never put those folks down. I had nothing to do with those tournaments funded by those folks, nor did I gamble with any of them.

What I do agree with you on is bringing forth legitimacy into the industry, and Barry Hearn has always been above board in this regard. Why he puts up with the American hanky panky year after year with our corrupt pool organizations is beyond me, but I'm so glad he's sticking with us through all of it. I wish he could come with an IPT-like tour and boost pool like he has booster darts and snooker with his golden Hearn touch.

There's a lot of shady people in pool, Jay, but I don't think Barry Behrman is one of them. He keeps giving it his all because of his passion for pool. Do you thikn he's doing the Open because he's making a fortune on it? Yep, he's made mistakes, big ones, that have caused problems, but he's still trying to make it better.

I think Barry treats the Open much like the 2013 Team USA did at the Mosconi Cup, as one big social event instead of as a professional competition. I've seen Keith behave poorly -- sorry, Keith -- when he's enjoyed too many fine spirits, and Barry is probably suffering from the same problem. I'm not a shrink nor a substance abuse counselor, but I've been around enough to see how this can make good people transform into something they really are not. And that's all I'm going to say on that topic.

Wishing you all the best on your 2015 February invitational on the West Coast, Jay. I look forward to reading all about it. :clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Keith also supported Kevin Trudeau and the IPT adventure. It is not just me. We both had a good experience. I'm sorry that you did not. I remember the first time you and I met. It was at the IPT North American Championship in Vegas, which was won by Thorsten Hohmann. Thorsten did pocket 350 large, Jay. Not too shabby.

You did encounter a beef with the IPT because, if memory serves me right, the qualifiers. I can't remember it fully, but I do know that after that time, you were anti-IPT all the way. For Keith and others, however, the IPT offered hope.

Since that time, I have seen other pool tournaments being funded by monies made from taking advantage of the poor, sick, and elderly, but nobody says anything about it. That money spends fine, I guess. During the subprime mortgage debacle in 2008, which brought our economy to a recession, there were pool peeps who made their fortunes on the helpless. These same folks were well respected on this forum, put on a pedestal, big talkers, high-rolling gamblers in The Action Room. Everybody welcomed them -- and their dough -- with open arms. To me, Jay, this is a double standard, but I never put those folks down. I had nothing to do with those tournaments funded by those folks, nor did I gamble with any of them.

What I do agree with you on is bringing forth legitimacy into the industry, and Barry Hearn has always been above board in this regard. Why he puts up with the American hanky panky year after year with our corrupt pool organizations is beyond me, but I'm so glad he's sticking with us through all of it. I wish he could come with an IPT-like tour and boost pool like he has booster darts and snooker with his golden Hearn touch.

There's a lot of shady people in pool, Jay, but I don't think Barry Behrman is one of them. He keeps giving it his all because of his passion for pool. Do you thikn he's doing the Open because he's making a fortune on it? Yep, he's made mistakes, big ones, that have caused problems, but he's still trying to make it better.

I think Barry treats the Open much like the 2013 Team USA did at the Mosconi Cup, as one big social event instead of as a professional competition. I've seen Keith behave poorly -- sorry, Keith -- when he's enjoyed too many fine spirits, and Barry is probably suffering from the same problem. I'm not a shrink nor a substance abuse counselor, but I've been around enough to see how this can make good people transform into something they really are not. And that's all I'm going to say on that topic.

Wishing you all the best on your 2015 February invitational on the West Coast, Jay. I look forward to reading all about it. :clapping::clapping::clapping:

I agree with parts of this! The part that I can't get around with BB is how he handles his problems.

Mika was owed money and kicked out the open by BB! Fact

Ronnie alcano got shorted and told by BB he was with holding taxes for ronnie! Caused big problems with his backer Perry Mariano! Fact

Misappropriated funds from the tournament to pay table mechanic! Fact

I don't wish him ill, he needs to be humble and add less money to avoid any problems! Adding 30,000 vs 50,000 changes nothing! Attendance the same every year! Fans and players.

He does not have the money to do it then solicit investors to be safe.

There are ways to do what he wants to do. He needs to restore faith and trust.

I do not believe the end of the tournament payouts would help. Players were getting paid 6 months after the event or more! Plus, Mika asked about his money the next year and got ran off.

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[robsnotes4u]

you are correct

Maybe I am missing something - I see 178K in and 178K out.

You are on the money. Here lies the problem I think BB does the same math as JJ

 

[cuedoctor]

Another year, same pre-tourney promises and we will have the same outcome; bounced checks, late payments (if at all), lie after lie. And some of the players keep coming back hoping for a different outcome. It's like Linus and Lucy with the football.

My point is if we want professional pool to be truly professional we don't need shady promoters running the events! We need legitimate events run by professional people/organizations! I will only work to create tournaments like that, where the prize money is guaranteed, not "promised."

Why should a player who has traveled at some expense to play in an event, have to wonder when and if he will get paid? That's my point. You of all people Jam, should want integrity in our sport, not more back room nonsense. I guess I forgot that you supported Trudough as well, even after it took years for people to get paid. Look where he is now. I saw though him early on and knew he was a shyster.

My point remains we don't need people like this to make our sport successful. We need LEGITIMACY, not more con men! I'll take Barry Hearn every day over people like this.

You talk like there is a line around the block waiting to be pool promoters....wake up there are none! I don't know how bad Barry broke it off in you but it obvious you hate him with a passion. Your in titled to your opinions but Barry is not perfect and professional pool ain't going nowhere and it sure ain't Barry fault. He's got issues but he's trying. It's sad now you have to attack Jam because she still believes in pool. Alot of people backed the IPT......I read a lot of your comments and they are very informative but bashing Barry every chance you get is old....sorry but Barry is better than most and he's sure better than nothing

 

[realkingcobra]

Any test that does not involve hard earned money is not going to be accurate. Many players repeatedly say i shoot the light out when practice, and suck in a match or money game; this is the uniqueness about pool. Plus i highly recommend the tests be done on snooker tables for pool players; that is the ultimate test. Do not forget it has to be same exact equipment for all players (tables, cues, balls, cloth, weather, you name it!)

There's a lot more to the testing than I've let on, but I'm not going to explain it all right now. I don't agree with using a snooker table for the skill level test either, but I do agree with using a Diamond 5'x10' as the gateway to decide who ranks as a pro and who don't.

 

[realkingcobra]

OH hell, why not.

Skill level testing for rotation games would be as follows:

On a Diamond 5'x10' ProAm all 15 balls are racked up.

Player breaks the balls wide open, any balls made on the break are worth 2 points, while all remaining balls are worth 1 point each except for the final 5 remaining balls, which must be pocketed in rotation and are worth 2 ponts per ball. Any fouls result in the end of the inning. 20 innings are required to obtain an overall score.

Like in golf, if no balls are made on the break, and a player sucessfully clears the table a total of 20 points will be earned, meaning the player has met the PAR score of 0. If a player also during the sucessfull break and run also pocketed 2 balls on the break to gain an extra 2 points, the players score would be at 2-. In the same relationship, if a player made no balls on the break, cleared all the balls off the table except the last remaining ball due to missing, the players score would reflect a 2+.

What this test reveals is the players ability to break the balls sucessfully, endurance to pocket a total of 300 balls overall, and the ability to sucessfully play out the final 5 balls in rotation.

Until player data is collected to build a players profile the scoring might be as follows:

5+ to 20- = Pro level.
20+ to 6+ = Semi Pro level
70+ to 21+ = Advanced player level
150+ to 71+ = Intermediate player level.

Real scoring would take place when a line could be drawn between the top 256 scores with being above that score is Pro, below is Semi Pro and all others. As more and more testing is done, the scoring of the top 256 players would become higher and higher through more data being collected and added to the scoring.

 

[realkingcobra]

And just to add to this, as an example, the Diamond 5'x10's used at the Derby City could be used at that time to start getting in early scoring for the up coming US Open, as well as any other Diamond 5'x10' around the world....yes, there are others spread out around the world. In Germany for example, players from over there before they spend any money in travel expences, they could at least see if they qualify first, before they fly. If they do qualify then they're flying for a purpose. Enough money could be raised using this system to pay ALL the players who compete in the US Open, then at the least 129-256th place would be worth something instead of coming up dry.

 

[naji]

OH hell, why not.

Skill level testing for rotation games would be as follows:

On a Diamond 5'x10' ProAm all 15 balls are racked up.

Player breaks the balls wide open, any balls made on the break are worth 2 points, while all remaining balls are worth 1 point each except for the final 5 remaining balls, which must be pocketed in rotation and are worth 2 ponts per ball. Any fouls result in the end of the inning. 20 innings are required to obtain an overall score.

Like in golf, if no balls are made on the break, and a player sucessfully clears the table a total of 20 points will be earned, meaning the player has met the PAR score of 0. If a player also during the sucessfull break and run also pocketed 2 balls on the break to gain an extra 2 points, the players score would be at 2-. In the same relationship, if a player made no balls on the break, cleared all the balls off the table except the last remaining ball due to missing, the players score would reflect a 2+.

What this test reveals is the players ability to break the balls sucessfully, endurance to pocket a total of 300 balls overall, and the ability to sucessfully play out the final 5 balls in rotation.

Until player data is collected to build a players profile the scoring might be as follows:

5+ to 20- = Pro level.
20+ to 6+ = Semi Pro level
70+ to 21+ = Advanced player level
150+ to 71+ = Intermediate player level.

Real scoring would take place when a line could be drawn between the top 256 scores with being above that score is Pro, below is Semi Pro and all others. As more and more testing is done, the scoring of the top 256 players would become higher and higher through more data being collected and added to the scoring.

I think you reversed the levels, 150+ to 71+ pro level! not intermediate player level!

You have something, but IMO any test or game that allows a bit of the luck factor in might not give be a true test. Snooker tables, test the true stroke and could easily use the total breaks to rate players over time. But the issue is pool has multiple games a guy who scores 400 in straight pool, might not run a rack or two in 10 ball, and might not know how to play one pocket, how does that rate players!

 

[realkingcobra]

Now, lets call this score card a "PRO TOUR CARD" and lets say a player has picked out 8 major tournaments they've decided to play in during the year. They would submit their players score and $100 to each of the major events, if they made the cut so to speak, for ]
example the US Open, which has a $500 entry fee, then if the player made the cut, the player then would send in the remaining $400 difference in order to compete. But lets say that just before the cut off date of players who are going to be playing, the player finds out that they're just short of the cut off score by say 5 points, well, the player could either choose to forfit the $100 pre paid entry and not play, OR take a retest of his/her score and do even better, then resubmit the new LOWER score with an additional $100 to register the new score therefore bumping up his position to be able to make the cut and play, Having now paid $200 to the US Open, the player would still have a remaing ballance due of $300 to finish paying the entry fee.

This system could tie in ALL the MAJOR pool tournaments around the world into ONE system of TRAVELING PRO"S who've qualified to play beforehand, eliminating the need for DEAD money from players that have NO CHANCE OF PLACING IN THE MONEY, creating a much better sport for the viewers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[realkingcobra]

I think you reversed the levels, 150+ to 71+ pro level! not intermediate player level!

You have something, but IMO any test or game that allows a bit of the luck factor in might not give be a true test. Snooker tables, test the true stroke and could easily use the total breaks to rate players over time. But the issue is pool has multiple games a guy who scores 400 in straight pool, might not run a rack or two in 10 ball, and might not know how to play one pocket, how does that rate players!

If a player never made a ball on the break, but ran the rack, the points would total 20+....which is considered to be PAR....or EVEN so to speak. Running 20 racks but not making a ball on the break would total 300 points to be EVEN, or PAR. So, to be at 5- under par means that a player would not only have had to run all the racks, but had to have made 5 balls on the break along the way. Other games of pool require other skill level tests, this skill level test is for rotation games.

A snooker table takes AWAY the players natural ability to play rotation games. The Diamond 5'x10' is hard enough, but perfect for this kind of test.

 

[realkingcobra]

Imagine if you will, 256 card carrying "PRO"S" spread out around the world. Now take a pool room somewhere that wants to promote a "PRO" event, not only do they know who all the card holding PRO"S are, if the limit the field to 64 players so to speak, and they get 64 players that have entered, any PRO that has a higher score card than some of the 64 players entered....can BUMP a player out and take their place on the list because they have a higher score. If the player getting bumped don't like it, the player can ALWAYS retest to try and gain a higher personal score and if so, can come back and BUMP another lower player out. What this does is it keeps bringing back the BEST players to every major event....because NOW it's worth their while to show up!!!

Glen

 

[naji]

Imagine if you will, 256 card carrying "PRO"S" spread out around the world. Now take a pool room somewhere that wants to promote a "PRO" event, not only do they know who all the card holding PRO"S are, if the limit the field to 64 players so to speak, and they get 64 players that have entered, any PRO that has a higher score card than some of the 64 players entered....can BUMP a player out and take their place on the list because they have a higher score. If the player getting bumped don't like it, the player can ALWAYS retest to try and gain a higher personal score and if so, can come back and BUMP another lower player out. What this does is it keeps bringing back the BEST players to every major event....because NOW it's worth their while to show up!!!

Glen

I am sorry not following the concept. say i am an A player , and SVB, Dennis O, Earl, and all pros came to play in it (we are not going to talk about travel cost and risk of entering or not); is your tests favors the weak or the strong; are you saying only the strongest players gets the right to play in the tournament; is this test to be done on every event, or once a year? does the players that take the test get paid anything!!

I know it is not the proper post for this, but i guess you started it here..hope JAM does not kick us out!!

 

[realkingcobra]

I am sorry not following the concept. say i am an A player , and SVB, Dennis O, Earl, and all pros came to play in it (we are not going to talk about travel cost and risk of entering or not); is your tests favors the weak or the strong; are you saying only the strongest players gets the right to play in the tournament; is this test to be done on every event, or once a year? does the players that take the test get paid anything!!

I know it is not the proper post for this, but i guess you started it here..hope JAM does not kick us out!!

In "PRO" only events, there are no "A" players, so no...only the Pro's are the ones playing, and yes everyone is required to test at least once every year. But, players can be grouped together by their test scores to compete against each other on their own level of skill, meaning "A's' and "B's" if you'd like to call them that...but no Pro's so to speak. I just don't feel it's right that "Pro's" should have to play lesser players just because their entry fee money is needed to make an event have enough prize money to pay a field of players. You don't see the amature's playing 72 holes with Tiger Woods do you?

 

[BeiberLvr]

In "PRO" only events, there are no "A" players, so no...only the Pro's are the ones playing, and yes everyone is required to test at least once every year. But, players can be grouped together by their test scores to compete against each other on their own level of skill, meaning "A's' and "B's" if you'd like to call them that...but no Pro's so to speak. I just don't feel it's right that "Pro's" should have to play lesser players just because their entry fee money is needed to make an event have enough prize money to pay a field of players. You don't see the amature's playing 72 holes with Tiger Woods do you?

So what's to stop a player of pro speed getting an A or B score to play in tournaments against other A or B players?

 

[realkingcobra]

So what's to stop a player of pro speed getting an A or B score to play in tournaments against other A or B players?

The fact that if he's a known player...meaning he has a test score on file, he can't step down to play lesser players any more than lesser players can step up to play him in an event with shorter races to win.