8 BALL - A true test for world class players?

[TheOne]

I think a few people did miss the point but never mind ;-)

Colin, don't forget playing the ghost you don't have to make a ball on the break, my run wasn't a 9 pack or anything. I probably made a ball about 40-50% of the time. Top pro's will break better than this and I still think that they could beat the ghost 85-15, ok maybe 80-20 in race to a hundred. Although not having the option to take ball in hand can make it a little harder.

Wayne, you're right in my experience it would be very difficult to beat the 9 ball ghost 9-1 or 10-0. SO playing the "ghost" is a good indication of runout difficulty. What it doesn't measure of course is one's tactical ability and also the pressure that builds in 8 ball when the cheese is on the line (eg if you "miss once you've sunk most of your balls you've basically lost on most pccassions unlike 9 ball). I think I read somewhere that top 9 ball pro's break and run an average of 30% of racks during comps. I would expect this to be above 50% in the IPT playing 8 ball.

Not sure about the slow cloth but making the pockets tight is one way to make 8 ball that little bit tougher for the top players.

 

[bruin70]

8ball is infinitely easier for me. it just takes a little more planning and maybe THAT'S the rub. however, it must be said that my game is better suited for 8ball than 9ball. i'm not a good shooter, especially long shots.....the 8ball layout comes with closer shots. i also plan well, and play more 14.1

never played it on slow cloth, though. and i am not familiar with the brand of 8ball that some gamblers play in 8ball.

 

[bruin70]

I agree Mr W.,

I think 8-Ball, Tight Pockets and Nap Cloth...coupled with COMPETITION & $$$$...In a 3 Set, Race to 9...is going to give some people headaches...I Can't Wait! , This may be especially troublesome if they are Old Pros coming back to the Tour, or Current Pros that really don't have an 8-Ball background...I think Ultimately everyone will get up to speed though...and the Cream will Rise...

how tight is the table going to be???

 

[bruin70]

I think you ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. The top pros are going to be scary good even with the few things attempting to slow them down, they better have an alternate break format or there are going to be matches where a person doesn't get to the table at all.



Wayne

i think alternate breaks is a good idea.

 

[bruin70]

WHAT IF PLAYERS START SOFTBREAKING, SO THAT THEY HAVE TO PLAY A CLUSTERED CENTER LAYOUT!!!! like a modified 14.1 break

the more i think of it, the more i find the potential interesting(or maybe REALLY boring). you would then have two schools of thought. "i'll break the crap out of the rack and try to run it",,,or "i'll softbreak it, and let's see you outfox me" (would this turn into some kind of weird one-pocket safety type play?)

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think a few people did miss the point but never mind ;-)

Colin, don't forget playing the ghost you don't have to make a ball on the break, my run wasn't a 9 pack or anything. I probably made a ball about 40-50% of the time. Top pro's will break better than this and I still think that they could beat the ghost 85-15, ok maybe 80-20 in race to a hundred. Although not having the option to take ball in hand can make it a little harder.

Wayne, you're right in my experience it would be very difficult to beat the 9 ball ghost 9-1 or 10-0. SO playing the "ghost" is a good indication of runout difficulty. What it doesn't measure of course is one's tactical ability and also the pressure that builds in 8 ball when the cheese is on the line (eg if you "miss once you've sunk most of your balls you've basically lost on most pccassions unlike 9 ball). I think I read somewhere that top 9 ball pro's break and run an average of 30% of racks during comps. I would expect this to be above 50% in the IPT playing 8 ball.

Not sure about the slow cloth but making the pockets tight is one way to make 8 ball that little bit tougher for the top players.

Hi Craig,
I understood the way you did it, with breaking not not counting and no ball in hand....this, I think is a good way to challenge the 8-ball ghost. It was someone else who mis-read you and commented that you had run from the break.

I think your 10-1 is outstanding. Your estimate of 80-20 for the top pros is probably close I suspect. A lot will depend on the tables and the pressure of the situation though. On the tighter tables and with some players not playing at their best or not being 8-ball specialists at the IPT, not to mention the pressure of the matches and a tendency to play occassional safeties when the out is possible but difficult, I'll be suprised if an average clean up, shot after the break of 70% is achieved throughout the tourny.

Breaking I suspect will be around 60%. So my guestimate of break + run-out should be around 0.6 x 0.65 = approx 40%. A little higher than in 9-ball.

We will surely see some higher percentages in some hot matches and toward the end of the tourney I imagine.

Anyway, it will be good to get some stats from the event and get an idea of the difficulty of the tables and what effect that has.

 

[Jaden]

a couple of things to consider about eightball.

There are a couple of things to consider when talking about the difficulties/easiness of eight ball compared to nineball.

First and foremost, you have a much higher liklihood of balls being tied up because you have seven more balls on the table.

Second, in eightball, you do NOT WANT to run out unless you're pretty damn confident you CAN run out. So if you have balls that are really tied you may not want to attempt a breakout depending on how easy, (dead shape breakout off an existing shot as being easiest), the breakout/s are and depending on how good a chance of getting shape on another shot after the breakout is. You would want to play a safety on the incoming player and make HIM/HER try and breakthem out for you. This is because if you are going to let your opponent get to the table you want as many of your balls on the table in his/her way as possible.

Because pocketing balls in eightball is easier and you are going after different balls than your opponent, you have to be absolutely sure you can run out, which in turn makes it a game of planning and strategy.

In nineball you can get away with planning only a couple of shots ahead even at high class levels of play. Not so in eightball. At the highest level of play, you can't hope you're going to get a good break and have a runout for the whole match, you have to plan out and be able to see what the best course of action is from just after the break. So like many other players are saying, it's not easier or more difficult than nineball overall, just different and easier or more difficult only in specific aspects of each game.

 

[vagabond]

It is easy to play 8 ball on a slow cloth if one knows how to BUNT the cue Ball.If u watch Buddy Hall or DLiberto or any old timers of strightpool ,u will know how to BUNT the cue Ball.

 

[ironman]

8-ball

I wish they had to shoot what they made after the break. No option or choice after the break. I think Colin has a pretty good guess on the 40% B&R. With no choice of balls after the break, it would decrease those chances a little bit.
Nerves will play a big part of it as someone mentioned. None of these guys have had a chance a title and the Perks that come with. (not to mention the money) It is going to be intresting.
In 8- ball and 9-ball, the end result is decide by three very basic things, good-bad decisions, the break, and making -missing balls.

 

[TheOne]

Hi Craig,
I understood the way you did it, with breaking not not counting and no ball in hand....this, I think is a good way to challenge the 8-ball ghost. It was someone else who mis-read you and commented that you had run from the break.

I think your 10-1 is outstanding. Your estimate of 80-20 for the top pros is probably close I suspect. A lot will depend on the tables and the pressure of the situation though. On the tighter tables and with some players not playing at their best or not being 8-ball specialists at the IPT, not to mention the pressure of the matches and a tendency to play occassional safeties when the out is possible but difficult, I'll be suprised if an average clean up, shot after the break of 70% is achieved throughout the tourny.

Breaking I suspect will be around 60%. So my guestimate of break + run-out should be around 0.6 x 0.65 = approx 40%. A little higher than in 9-ball.

We will surely see some higher percentages in some hot matches and toward the end of the tourney I imagine.

Anyway, it will be good to get some stats from the event and get an idea of the difficulty of the tables and what effect that has.

Hi Colin, I wasn't referring to you specifically when I said somepeople misunderstood my thread. I tend to agree with your breaking stat of 60% but for the TOP players I suspect the run out stat when they make a ball will be higher. When I played Efren for example (8 ball on 9fts, pretty slow cloth) his run out % was around 90%. But like you said it will be interesting to see.

PS
"to play occassional safeties when the out is possible but difficult" - this of course what seperates the great from the good in 8 ball. You have to know when the time is right to "go". More often than not if you dont take that chance you may not get another or your layout may be even more difficult

 

[Mr. Wilson]

i think alternate breaks is a good idea.

I strongly disagree.

Despite how "easy" everyone seems to concur that 8ball is, I hgihly doubt we'll be seeing strings of break & run like 9ball can produce.

IMO, what you will see are some awesome strategy plays with awesome safties.

Since jumping won't be an option, this will be very interesting

 

[pete lafond]

I think a few people did miss the point but never mind ;-)

Colin, don't forget playing the ghost you don't have to make a ball on the break, my run wasn't a 9 pack or anything. I probably made a ball about 40-50% of the time. Top pro's will break better than this and I still think that they could beat the ghost 85-15, ok maybe 80-20 in race to a hundred. Although not having the option to take ball in hand can make it a little harder.

...

I agree. Also, expect to see very offensive games. Few safes and lots of run outs. I like having tighter pockets because this adds a level of difficulty to especially the carom and combo shots.

I have played on nap and 860 cloth, the only adjustments I've had to make was in very few creative shots that were not available on the nap cloth. On the nap cloth, however, I was able to stroke some shots more firmly and get better precision on position with out a lot of CB movement. Overall I think the cloth will have the least impact.

Just my take. Even though I am not playing in the IPT, I really am excited and looking forward to some great games and getting pool recognized.

 

[pete lafond]

...

Since jumping won't be an option, this will be very interesting

I did not read the rules but are all jumps not allowed. e.g. Jump intentionally of the rail? Top of CB hit on a siomewhat normal stroke to get the CB over the edge of an obstructing ball?

 

[Snapshot9]

Pete ...

I did not read the rules but are all jumps not allowed. e.g. Jump intentionally of the rail? Top of CB hit on a siomewhat normal stroke to get the CB over the edge of an obstructing ball?

I think they just state no jump cues allowed, and that jumping with
a FULL cue is.

If everyone thinks 8 ball is that easy, then why are all of your
8 ball league averages so low? Try playing in an advanced
8 ball league, and then come back and give your opinion.

 

[supergreenman]

I strongly disagree.

Despite how "easy" everyone seems to concur that 8ball is, I hgihly doubt we'll be seeing strings of break & run like 9ball can produce.

IMO, what you will see are some awesome strategy plays with awesome safties.

Since jumping won't be an option, this will be very interesting

I don't think that 8ball is easier than 9ball at all, true you have options on which ball to shoot, but it only takes an inch or two once you've ran 5-7 balls to get out of position and end up hooped.

BTW, it's only Jump cues that aren't allowed. If a player wants to jump the ball with his regular cue, I believe that is still legal.

J

 

[pete lafond]

If one needs a barometer, since there is none yet in the pro ranks, I suggest going to the APA for some stats.

Shorty Henson, who won the national amateur a couple of years ago, and who finishes usually in the money in the Planet Pool 9 ball tours (he has won a few times also) against the like of McCready, Mike Davis, Ryan McCreash, had a point 39 (.39) innings per game average in APA 8 ball (this is a fact). I think this probably was on 4 1/2x9s.

Let's make that average .33 for demonstration purposes. That means that there is one inning take in every 3 games, or that both players had one miss in every 3 games. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that computes to Shorty running 66% of his racks.

Now to that add slower cloth and tigher pockets, and I can see the pros running out at least 75% of the time, assuming that Shorty's break is sort of normal compared to the pros.

I saw stats once of pros playing 8 ball on 9' tables. I believe it was around 42% of the time an 8 ball run out occurred.

My experience, contrary so some posts I've read here is that my tendancy is to have a higher percent of run outs on bar boxes. Most my experience playing is on 9' tables so I would expect it to be there. I find on a bar box, the pockets normally (not always) a bit sloppier. Also because most CB movement is shorter, position play is much easier as other balls on the table are more often used as stop balls.

Either way 8 ball should be lots of fun watching the pros play it.

 

[supergreenman]

I saw stats once of pros playing 8 ball on 9' tables. I believe it was around 42% of the time an 8 ball run out occurred.

My experience, contrary so some posts I've read here is that my tendancy is to have a higher percent of run outs on bar boxes. Most my experience playing is on 9' tables so I would expect it to be there. I find on a bar box, the pockets normally (not always) a bit sloppier. Also because most CB movement is shorter, position play is much easier as other balls on the table are more often used as stop balls.

Either way 8 ball should be lots of fun watching the pros play it.

I would also agree with the higher run out percentage on bar boxes by pros too. this subject was brought up on another forum last week and was the source of a lot of dispute. In the end I think the players with a higher level of skill tended to agree that on a bar box a pro would have a higher percentage of run outs than a 9foot table.


J

 

[sniper]

I've asked pros what game they consider to be easier and the general consensus seems to be that they think eight ball is easier. For one, the break is a much less important factor and also has less luck involved. You can have a cluster after the break in eight ball and still run out quite frequently whereas a cluster after the break in nineball can be a disaster and the runout becomes much less of a option.

To answer TheOne's question, I do think eightball will be a test for world class players when you factor in the tight pockets and the slow cloth. Sure there will be more runouts than in nineball but that doesn't mean the game is "easy" for the top players.

 

[Colin Colenso]

If one needs a barometer, since there is none yet in the pro ranks, I suggest going to the APA for some stats.

Shorty Henson, who won the national amateur a couple of years ago, and who finishes usually in the money in the Planet Pool 9 ball tours (he has won a few times also) against the like of McCready, Mike Davis, Ryan McCreash, had a point 39 (.39) innings per game average in APA 8 ball (this is a fact). I think this probably was on 4 1/2x9s.

Let's make that average .33 for demonstration purposes. That means that there is one inning take in every 3 games, or that both players had one miss in every 3 games. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that computes to Shorty running 66% of his racks.

Now to that add slower cloth and tigher pockets, and I can see the pros running out at least 75% of the time, assuming that Shorty's break is sort of normal compared to the pros.

How exactly is the 0.39 innings per game calculated?

It's just games you win right?

I heard that defensive shots are not included in that.

And what about break shots when a ball doesn't go down?

ERO's are commonly calculated for the leagues, so what are the top level players doing in prcentage terms as far as ERO's...and are ERO's the same as Break and Runs, or can a ERO be counted when you follow the breaker?

 

[jsp]

definition of "easy"

When someone says 8ball or 9ball is an "easier" game, we first have to be consistent on our definitions of easy.

Seems like the majority of the posters simply define it as what game is easier to break and runout. On this definition, I would agree that 8ball is an easier game, especially if you have a wide open rack after the break.

However, I believe an alternate definition of easier should be used. The game that should be regarded as easier is the game in which a lower level player can beat a higher level player at a higher percentage. In my opinion, 9ball is an easier game based on this definition. It is more likely a B player can beat an A player to a race to 10 racks in 9ball than in 8ball.

In 9ball, luck is more a factor, safety play is more trivial, and strategy is more straightforward. Sure, in 8ball one may run more racks at a greater percentage. However, for the racks that are NOT runnable, I can argue that the higher level player will win a much greater percentage of those racks in 8ball than in 9ball. Therefore, the stronger player will consistenly beat a weaker player in 8ball than in 9ball, which is why I think 9ball is an easier game.

I am glad 8ball is the IPT's game of choice. You will see a lot more consistency in the standings. The stronger players will consistenlty be at the top, while the weaker players will consistently be at the bottom.