8 BALL - A true test for world class players?

[Colin Colenso]

When someone says 8ball or 9ball is an "easier" game, we first have to be consistent on our definitions of easy.

Seems like the majority of the posters simply define it as what game is easier to break and runout. On this definition, I would agree that 8ball is an easier game, especially if you have a wide open rack after the break.

However, I believe an alternate definition of easier should be used. The game that should be regarded as easier is the game in which a lower level player can beat a higher level player at a higher percentage. In my opinion, 9ball is an easier game based on this definition. It is more likely a B player can beat an A player to a race to 10 racks in 9ball than in 8ball.

In 9ball, luck is more a factor, safety play is more trivial, and strategy is more straightforward. Sure, in 8ball one may run more racks at a greater percentage. However, for the racks that are NOT runnable, I can argue that the higher level player will win a much greater percentage of those racks in 8ball than in 9ball. Therefore, the stronger player will consistenly beat a weaker player in 8ball than in 9ball, which is why I think 9ball is an easier game.

I am glad 8ball is the IPT's game of choice. You will see a lot more consistency in the standings. The stronger players will consistenlty be at the top, while the weaker players will consistently be at the bottom.

I agree, just because a game may have a higher percentage of break run outs, doesn't mean it is easier. Just easier to run out, not easier to win a match.

What I like about 8-ball is the breadth of skills that the game requires. If a pro falls short in some of these areas, be it pattern reading, kissing clusters, knowing when to cut and run, working balls from in close or shooting tough long shots, if they fall short in any one area other players will gain an advantage over them.

The one aspect of the game that may be problematic is that breaking may be the decisive factor at the top level, especially if most pros can clean a table from 80-90% after the break shot.

Those who can get their break to 85% are going to thrash players who break at 55% even if they clear 10% less often (say 80% v 90%) and are hence considerably less advanced in their all round skills.

eg:
Player A break 85%, clear 80% = 68% Frame win off break
Player B off A's break 15% open, clear 90% = 14% Frame win.
Of 18% remaining player A wins 8% player B wins 10%.
Player A = 76% Player B = 24%

Player B break 55%, clear 90% = 49% Frame win off break
Player A off B's break 45% open, clear 80% = 36% Frame win.
Of 15% remaining player A wins 6%, player B wins 9%.
Player B = 58% Player A = 42%

Sparing some complex math here, but considering that Player A will end up with more breaks than Player B in a match. A median race to 9 between these two should be about 9-4.5 (67%) in player A's favor if winner breaks and 9:6 (59%) for alternate break.

Anyone still reading? Take an aspirin

 

[mjantti]

I rarely have this kind of games, but here's one 8-ball match I was involved in EPC against Oliver Ortmann:

Ollie wins the lag

Inning 1: He runs 3 racks and comes up dry on the break of rack 4
Inning 2: I make it to 3-1 and in rack 5 I get a little bit unlucky on a cluster break, cueball was double kissed to safety, and leave myself nothing and play a tactical shot to get myself a chance to break the cluster if I get to the table.
Inning 3: Ollie plays safe
Inning 4: I don't have anything and just make contact with my ball.
Inning 5: Ortmann runs that rack and 2 more to lead 6-1 and comes up dry on the break on rack 8.
Inning 6: I run 3 racks to 6-4 and while running the 11th rack, I miss my semidifficult last ball while playing tough position for the 8. Darn it. Only missed ball in the match.
Inning 7: Ollie runs out to win 8-4.

7 innings and 12 games. Ollie averaged 2.0 racks per inning, me 1.33 racks per inning. And no, I'm not a top player, I just don't see that kind of matches very often, except in 8-ball. Ortmann would have whooped my a$$ without those two dry breaks.

Another match I was involved here in Finland (9' table):

I win the lag.
Inning 1: Dry break from me.
Inning 2: My opponent (Mikko Mattila, a good player) runs 1+6 to lead 7-0 but comes up dry on the break in rack 8.
Inning 3: I run the open rack and the next one to 7-2 but come up dry with the break.
Inning 4: He runs out and wins 8-2.

How about that, both shot Accu-stats 1.000 and he averaged 4.0 racks per inning, while I averaged a puny 1.0 rack per inning. Haven't seen that happen in 9-ball here...

 

[buddha162]

In 9ball, luck is more a factor, safety play is more trivial, and strategy is more straightforward.

Oh boy...

Bottom line is this: a cluster in a 9-ball rack becomes a HUGE obstacle to the runout. Getting out of line in 9-ball also becomes a larger risk to the runout. This is because you must shoot the balls in sequence. There are no backups, there is no plan B; you are forced to play position for the lowest number ball, period.

The question here is not Which is a harder game, but Which is a harder game for the PROS, ie is 8 ball "a true test for world class players"? and the answer is emphatically NO.

They make a ball on the break, and they are out 80-90% of the time. They're not even forced to shoot at the ball they made, they have free choice at the table! Choose which set of balls to shoot, and you have 5-7 balls to pocket in any order. This will be a virtual coin toss between any pro who can break half-way decent.

Those guys (and gals) regularly run 50-100 balls in straightpool, so don't even try to say that cluster management will be an issue. Same goes for "pattern play"...

If you really want to seperate the boys from the men, play 10-ball on 4 inch pockets. 8 ball is a scheme to incorporate a larger viewership, it is a complete joke as a rubric of skill for the pros, even for you average shortstop/open-class player. Sure, you can make an argument for it's supposed complexity, but it will only stand on paper, not in reality.

-Roger

 

[ironman]

I agree that 8-ball is a much easier game and it got so much easier with the BCA rules. In 9-ball, 10-ball, or Rotation, you obviously have to shoot in rotation and playing a certain pattern is much more crucial than in any other game.
The IPT chose 8-ball in an attempt to gain an audience that can understand the game.
I feel that there are many 8-ball players who have come to think of themselves as Specialist at the game and hang on yo the idea that these Pros don't know how to play the game. Many are going to badly upset when they finally see the game played the way it should be played. It is going to look simpler than they ever imagined.
If the IPT had wanted to make it more difficult for the pros, they would have chosen as suggested, 10-ball with 4 inch pockets.
The IPT idea is not to entertain the pool playing public as much as it is to attract a whole new audience and why the pool playing world can't see this is beyond me.

 

[mjantti]

Oh boy...

Bottom line is this: a cluster in a 9-ball rack becomes a HUGE obstacle to the runout. Getting out of line in 9-ball also becomes a larger risk to the runout. This is because you must shoot the balls in sequence. There are no backups, there is no plan B; you are forced to play position for the lowest number ball, period.

The question here is not Which is a harder game, but Which is a harder game for the PROS, ie is 8 ball "a true test for world class players"? and the answer is emphatically NO.

They make a ball on the break, and they are out 80-90% of the time. They're not even forced to shoot at the ball they made, they have free choice at the table! Choose which set of balls to shoot, and you have 5-7 balls to pocket in any order. This will be a virtual coin toss between any pro who can break half-way decent.

Those guys (and gals) regularly run 50-100 balls in straightpool, so don't even try to say that cluster management will be an issue. Same goes for "pattern play"...

If you really want to seperate the boys from the men, play 10-ball on 4 inch pockets. 8 ball is a scheme to incorporate a larger viewership, it is a complete joke as a rubric of skill for the pros, even for you average shortstop/open-class player. Sure, you can make an argument for it's supposed complexity, but it will only stand on paper, not in reality.

-Roger

Tap tap tap, just my thoughts here. Good post, Roger.

 

[LastTwo]

When someone says 8ball or 9ball is an "easier" game, we first have to be consistent on our definitions of easy.

Seems like the majority of the posters simply define it as what game is easier to break and runout. On this definition, I would agree that 8ball is an easier game, especially if you have a wide open rack after the break.

However, I believe an alternate definition of easier should be used. The game that should be regarded as easier is the game in which a lower level player can beat a higher level player at a higher percentage. In my opinion, 9ball is an easier game based on this definition. It is more likely a B player can beat an A player to a race to 10 racks in 9ball than in 8ball.

In 9ball, luck is more a factor, safety play is more trivial, and strategy is more straightforward. Sure, in 8ball one may run more racks at a greater percentage. However, for the racks that are NOT runnable, I can argue that the higher level player will win a much greater percentage of those racks in 8ball than in 9ball. Therefore, the stronger player will consistenly beat a weaker player in 8ball than in 9ball, which is why I think 9ball is an easier game.

I am glad 8ball is the IPT's game of choice. You will see a lot more consistency in the standings. The stronger players will consistenlty be at the top, while the weaker players will consistently be at the bottom.

I strongly disagree with most of what you said. You probably didn't really think about what you are talking about.

I have seen players that don't know a thing about position break and run out in 8-ball. They are good shotmakers, but they really have no clue about where the cueball is going after they make the shot. Those same players have never even come close to running out a rack of 9-ball from the 1ball. If D players can break and run out in 8-ball, then surely a B player has a much better chance to beat an A player in 8-ball than he does in 9-ball. I don't care how bad someone plays, there is nothing you can do when he is at the table. Safety play in 9-ball most often requires control of both the cueball and object ball. In 8-ball, often you only have to control the cueball. There is just as much luck in 9-ball as there is in 8-ball at a high level. In 9-ball someone can miss and hook you. In 8-ball they can do that, or they can miss and tie up your balls, etc. The luck factor evens out. Dealing with clusters is MUCH harder in 9-ball than in 8-ball, I don't care what anyone says, because there is no logic to justify the contrary. There is no plan "B" if you don't break up a cluster like you wanted to in 9-ball. In 8-ball there are insurance balls just in case you make a mistake breaking up a cluster or playing a certain pattern. In 9-ball it's do or die. I don't think I have to explain anymore how wrong you are. End of story.

 

[Jaden]

I don';t know what D players you are watching.

I strongly disagree with most of what you said. You probably didn't really think about what you are talking about.

I have seen players that don't know a thing about position break and run out in 8-ball. They are good shotmakers, but they really have no clue about where the cueball is going after they make the shot. Those same players have never even come close to running out a rack of 9-ball from the 1ball. If D players can break and run out in 8-ball, then surely a B player has a much better chance to beat an A player in 8-ball than he does in 9-ball. I don't care how bad someone plays, there is nothing you can do when he is at the table. Safety play in 9-ball most often requires control of both the cueball and object ball. In 8-ball, often you only have to control the cueball. There is just as much luck in 9-ball as there is in 8-ball at a high level. In 9-ball someone can miss and hook you. In 8-ball they can do that, or they can miss and tie up your balls, etc. The luck factor evens out. Dealing with clusters is MUCH harder in 9-ball than in 8-ball, I don't care what anyone says, because there is no logic to justify the contrary. There is no plan "B" if you don't break up a cluster like you wanted to in 9-ball. In 8-ball there are insurance balls just in case you make a mistake breaking up a cluster or playing a certain pattern. In 9-ball it's do or die. I don't think I have to explain anymore how wrong you are. End of story.

I don't know what "D" players you are watching, nut I've never seen a "D" player break and run out eightball on a barbox let alone a 9 ft with 4 1/4" pockets.

 

[Colin Colenso]

There is no plan "B" if you don't break up a cluster like you wanted to in 9-ball.

It is quite common after failing to bust up a cluster in 9-Ball for the next shot to be an effective, and often game winning safety.

When you've potted a few balls in 8-ball and miss breaking out a cluster, the consequences are often more severe I believe.

Of course there are more pattern options, but there are also more clusters. I do believe a 9-Ball player with little cluster breaking / manipulating experience will struggle with them.

 

[Nostroke]

I don't know what "D" players you are watching, nut I've never seen a "D" player break and run out eightball on a barbox let alone a 9 ft with 4 1/4" pockets.

I ran out an 8 ball rack when i was probably an F player- had not been in a pool room more than 3 times. It was maybe a year after that before i ran one rack of nine ball.

 

[TheOne]

It is quite common after failing to bust up a cluster in 9-Ball for the next shot to be an effective, and often game winning safety.

When you've potted a few balls in 8-ball and miss breaking out a cluster, the consequences are often more severe I believe.

Of course there are more pattern options, but there are also more clusters. I do believe a 9-Ball player with little cluster breaking / manipulating experience will struggle with them.

Excellent point Colin, my thoughts in summary...

8 Ball pros & cons
+ More pressure on run outs
+ Can be more tactical and safety is harder
+ More Decissions to be made by player
+ More balls so position play can be harder
- More options on run out / Easier Run Outs
- Easier to escape safeties
- Easier to make a ball on the break

 

[SplicedPoints]

There are probably a lot more bangers than have ran a table in 8 ball than in 9 ball. Speaking from my own experience, i was able to run out in 8 ball way earlier than I was able to run out in 9 ball. Even now, I find it much easier to run out in 8 ball for the simple fact that there are more options in 8 ball. I like to play 8 ball, but as I play against more and more good players, I play it less.

Honestly, I have yet to see a true 'pro' class player that can't manage clusters decently. I also haven't seen any top pros that is only good in 9 ball. I think most pros play more than 1 type of game, so the argument that "9 ball players" will have trouble with clusters doesn't really stand up, as there are probably no pro player that plays 9 ball only. Even if a good player have little or no experience in 8 ball, he or she will be able to learn the game quite easily. Wu's victory at the 8 ball world championships is a testament to that, as he admits himself that he had no 8 ball background and he learned the game by observing the other playersin the tournament.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Excellent point Colin, my thoughts in summary...

8 Ball pros & cons
+ More pressure on run outs
+ Can be more tactical and safety is harder
+ More Decissions to be made by player
+ More balls so position play can be harder
- More options on run out / Easier Run Outs
- Easier to escape safeties
- Easier to make a ball on the break

Not intending to be pedantic here, but I want to expand on & clarify a couple of things from your fiiiine list

-Easier to escape safeties: Well, in 8 ball, with more ball choices to play off, the safeties can often be executed in quite a challenging way, such that they are either very very hard to get out of, or they will almost definitely produce a good result even if the player hits their ball. This is especially the case when the out is tricky with 5-7 balls on the table and the opponent only has a ball or two. This is quite often a smart time to play for a BIH or take your chances of being in a better spot after the opponent gets out of the snooker. Sometimes there is that one ball or cluster where you are much better off with a BIH to start.

Easier to make a ball on the break: I'm not sure about that. I know 10-Ball has a rep for being much harder to make a ball on the break than 9-ball. Does anyone know any stats to contrast on 9-ball vs 8-ball break percentages for making a ball?

 

[Jaden]

running out in 8ball

MAking one run out in hundreds of games is hardly worth mentioning. Anyways the point is to say that running out in eightball is easier for the lesser player than in nineball. Of course it is with more options when you make a shape mistake. However, we're not talking about the lesser players here and we ARE talking about round robin with races to 8. I think that the better players will still prevail with the way it's setup and your point of it being easier for the lesser players to runout actually helps substantiate the use of eightball.

If bangers or non pool players are watching nineball at home, they're thinking that there's no way they could ever be that good. That discourages a lot of people from playing. In eightball, 1) because many more people play it, they are more likely to be able to relate to it. 2) because more people play it, more people are more likely to know people and to have seen people who have run out in it, thereby giving them the impression that they would have a chance if they played more.

One of the biggest draws for football are people who in their prime played half way decent, and are under the impression ,( however misguided it is), that they could or could've done just as good or better if they had kept at it. The same goes for most other sports.

 

[Snapshot9]

My Opinion

MAking one run out in hundreds of games is hardly worth mentioning. Anyways the point is to say that running out in eightball is easier for the lesser player than in nineball. Of course it is with more options when you make a shape mistake. However, we're not talking about the lesser players here and we ARE talking about round robin with races to 8. I think that the better players will still prevail with the way it's setup and your point of it being easier for the lesser players to runout actually helps substantiate the use of eightball.

If bangers or non pool players are watching nineball at home, they're thinking that there's no way they could ever be that good. That discourages a lot of people from playing. In eightball, 1) because many more people play it, they are more likely to be able to relate to it. 2) because more people play it, more people are more likely to know people and to have seen people who have run out in it, thereby giving them the impression that they would have a chance if they played more.

One of the biggest draws for football are people who in their prime played half way decent, and are under the impression ,( however misguided it is), that they could or could've done just as good or better if they had kept at it. The same goes for most other sports.

I have played almost 44 years, and IMO, 8 ball is a slightly harder
game to play well than 9 ball. The thought processes (mental game)
comes into it much more, and selecting the wrong shot can almost
stop you in the tracks later on. Breakouts are trickier, and with more
balls can have more negative affects. You see far more 9 ball runouts
by good players than 8 ball runouts, IMO. And if I am playing some
better than I am, I would prefer it be 8 ball to 9 ball because they might
execute well, but not think extremely well in a more complicated setting.

 

[Jaden]

I agree that eightball is more difficult to play well at.

I have played almost 44 years, and IMO, 8 ball is a slightly harder
game to play well than 9 ball. The thought processes (mental game)
comes into it much more, and selecting the wrong shot can almost
stop you in the tracks later on. Breakouts are trickier, and with more
balls can have more negative affects. You see far more 9 ball runouts
by good players than 8 ball runouts, IMO. And if I am playing some
better than I am, I would prefer it be 8 ball to 9 ball because they might
execute well, but not think extremely well in a more complicated setting.

I never said eightball was easier. What I said was is that it is easier for lesser players to run out in eightball than in nineball.

Eightball is more difficult in higher levels of play over the long term because of the different ways you are forced to play. Let me rephrase that it is not more difficult to shoot well in eightball, it is more difficult to play well. If you get a good layout after the break, it is much easier to run out for less skilled players.

 

[TheOne]

Not intending to be pedantic here, but I want to expand on & clarify a couple of things from your fiiiine list

-Easier to escape safeties: Well, in 8 ball, with more ball choices to play off, the safeties can often be executed in quite a challenging way, such that they are either very very hard to get out of, or they will almost definitely produce a good result even if the player hits their ball. This is especially the case when the out is tricky with 5-7 balls on the table and the opponent only has a ball or two. This is quite often a smart time to play for a BIH or take your chances of being in a better spot after the opponent gets out of the snooker. Sometimes there is that one ball or cluster where you are much better off with a BIH to start.

Easier to make a ball on the break: I'm not sure about that. I know 10-Ball has a rep for being much harder to make a ball on the break than 9-ball. Does anyone know any stats to contrast on 9-ball vs 8-ball break percentages for making a ball?

I'll forgive you!

I was just talking simply with the easier to escape thingy. In 9 ball you always only have 1 ball to hit, in 8 ball you will most of that time have options.

As for the break I wasn't hundred % sure, but based on my experiences and that fact that theres so many more balls flying around the table I would be suprised if its not easier?

 

[catscradle]

On one of my recent visits to the states I got chatting to a well respected member of this forum about 8 ball. I mentioned that I love the game and I always thought it strange that since most of the worlds recreational player play 8 ball that it wasn't the TV game of choice. I was a little suprised to here that some of the old legends of the game thought that 8 ball wasn't as difficult as 9 ball (or a true test for world class players).

I wasn't sure I agreed with this but with all the buzz around 8 ball recently I dusted down my cue and had a session yesterday. I played the 8 ball ghost race to 10. I played the cue ball from where it came to rest after the break everytime and won 10-1 (sadly I hooked myself on the final 8 ball at 9:0 for the whitewash!)

My feeling is that top would class players would prob beat the 8 ball ghost 85-15 or more if they played 100 racks. I'm now starting to believe playing the 8 ball ghost is indeed easier than playing 9 ball ghost, therefore logically this would mean that 8 ball is an easier game than 9 ball?

What doess everyone else think? (PS I still ADORE 8 ball)

I have watched almost all the tapes from the Accu-stats invitational 8-ball tournament a few years ago. The general rule was that if the breaker got a ball in on the break he ran out no matter how tough the layout; if the breaker didn't get a ball on the break his opponent got a runout no matter how tough the layout. Most, especially Efren, studied the table a long time before starting their runout, then the ran out with very little delay between shots. This to me suggested that 8-ball takes more up front planning, but after that it is a done deal for players of world class caliber. I think that execution is easier in 8-ball because you have more control over the next shot you have to take. In 9-ball you more often are left with having to take a relatively tough shot. I don't know which is tougher but I think 9-ball makes tougher demands on shot making ability.

 

[buddha162]

I feel that there are many 8-ball players who have come to think of themselves as Specialist at the game and hang on yo the idea that these Pros don't know how to play the game. Many are going to badly upset when they finally see the game played the way it should be played. It is going to look simpler than they ever imagined.

Exactly!

I'm not sure what causes this phenomenon (the league perhaps?) but putting 8-ball on a pedestal is borderline delusional.

If Earl walked into my poolroom and I was somehow forced to play him for alot of dough, but I get the choose which game we play? You got it, it'll be 8ball all the way. Not because I doubt Earl wouldn't play perfect 8ball, he most definitely will, but if I'm shooting well SO WILL I! Am I still a lock to lose? Yes. But will the score be much, much closer than if we played 9-ball? YES!!!!!

-Roger (please leave the APA strategies behind when you're talking about the pros, please)

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have played almost 44 years, and IMO, 8 ball is a slightly harder
game to play well than 9 ball. The thought processes (mental game)
comes into it much more, and selecting the wrong shot can almost
stop you in the tracks later on. Breakouts are trickier, and with more
balls can have more negative affects. You see far more 9 ball runouts
by good players than 8 ball runouts, IMO. And if I am playing some
better than I am, I would prefer it be 8 ball to 9 ball because they might
execute well, but not think extremely well in a more complicated setting.

It's good to hear you say that Snapshot.

There are a lot of little trick type shots that I have developed over the years playing 8-ball that I can often bring into play in more tied up 8-ball games, but I rarely get the chance to use them in 9-ball.

eg. Masse from close to OB for better position or nudging clusters, complex combinations, soft swerves, OB jumps, OB to OB caroms.

These are skills that take time and imagination to develop, that are percentage plays more often in 8-ball than 9-ball.

You can pretty much guess the shot a 9-ball pro will play in most situations, but I love the challenge of 8-ball when there are so many options, and occassionally coming up with a shot that stuns the crowd with it's originality.

The more I think about this, the more I would like to see 4" pockets so that there are more strategical games.

 

[buddha162]

This is a reply to almost everyone on the board:

The question (yet again), is not which game is harder for you. It's which game is a better test of skill among the pros.

If you find 8ball a harder game than 9ball, then that is somewhat understandable, though I find it improbable for decent players to hold that position. But that's how you see the games personally, so that's that. But for the pros? Like Ironman said, you'll be (un)pleasantly surprised.

-Roger