8 BALL - A true test for world class players?

[rackmsuckr]

When all is said and done, I do think 9 ball is tougher to run out than 8 ball. However, I think it is easier for a lesser skilled player to WIN a game in 9 ball, given that slop accounts for a lot of early 9 balls, or a slopped early ball that resulted in a runout. And that just fries me. I realize it doesn't happen too often at the pro level, but it does go into the statistics as a runout. A D player is going to ride the 9 or shoot hard at every given opportunity and will win more than his fair share just on slop. And I am surprised that no one mentioned that before.

Another factor that is not mentioned is that in 9 ball, if you miss and hang a ball, that is a detriment (especially if it is the 9ball!) because the next player gets to shoot it, whereas in 8 ball, it could become your biggest ally, blocking one or more of your opponent's balls and giving you a break out shot if needed. It is also nice if it is an 8 ball that you hung and it is blocking your opponent, but easy to kick if they hook you.

Bernie, I think you are wrong about pattern play. I learned real patterns when I started playing 9ball and having to move whitey around. In 8ball, you usually play zones, getting all the balls cleared in one half of the table with an intermediate side pocket shot to move to the other end and clear those off. (Exceptions might be not shooting in hangers, to use as insurance balls later). In 9ball, the one may be up table, the 2 down table, the 3 back up table, and so on, especially if they know how to rack! You don't have to move your ball as much in 8 ball, and knowing multi-rail patterns from 9 ball has helped my 8 ball game, especially if they leave me an ugly do-or-die shot.

And a lot of the open table safes that you had to learn for 9ball to leave balls rail to rail, won't come up, unless you are both on the 8. Conversely, there are safeties that you play in 8 ball, that you can't play in 9ball - like putting the CB directly in line with 2 tied up balls and shooting your ball, separating them, and leaving them behind your ball, so that if you get BIH, your ball is now open. Safeties can be tougher in 8ball because you may have to hide from 7 balls instead of just 1.

The break is much easier in 9ball to pocket a ball and control the table. In fact, the 1 can become quite predictable. So much so that the use of the Sardo Tight Rack changed the whole game by racking the 9 on the spot instead of the 1.

They both have intricacies that are enjoyable to play. If slop wasn't allowed in 9 ball, I would enjoy playing it much more. 9ball is more of a shooter's game than 8ball. Not to say there isn't strategy too, but it is more calculating percentages of whether to shoot or play safe, whereas in 8 ball, I find it more challenging to include all the other balls in my calculations too.

 

[LastTwo]

It is quite common after failing to bust up a cluster in 9-Ball for the next shot to be an effective, and often game winning safety.

When you've potted a few balls in 8-ball and miss breaking out a cluster, the consequences are often more severe I believe.

Of course there are more pattern options, but there are also more clusters. I do believe a 9-Ball player with little cluster breaking / manipulating experience will struggle with them.

I would say it's quite common to get a game winning safety out of a cluster when you actually play position FOR the safety instead of trying to break it out. Of course after breaking up a cluster the wrong way there are times where you can get a great lock down, but more often than not you have to play a relatively soft safety.

 

[onepocketchump]

It is precisely because 8 Ball is easier than nine ball (in some aspects) that it will be a good test of the pros for television. The true test will come when the pros are faced with the tough shots and clusters when a miss means that they might not get back to the table in the set. Safety battles will have to be much more creative. There will be shots that come up that the player MUST go for because there is no other alternative.

How boring is nine ball or that horrid seven ball when they players are breaking and running out all the time. At least this way the audience will get to see players running out by having to navigate around balls and clusters.

Since 99% of the world's people who play pool think of 8 ball as pool - I am guessing that the IPT will play out just fine on TV. And by having the pros, the IPT will definitely have top notch 8 ball on TV.

If EVERYONE can run out then it comes down to who has the nerves to do so under pressure. Those pockets are going to get real tight when the money goes up.

John

 

[jsp]

When all is said and done, I do think 9 ball is tougher to run out than 8 ball. However, I think it is easier for a lesser skilled player to WIN a game in 9 ball, given that slop accounts for a lot of early 9 balls, or a slopped early ball that resulted in a runout. And that just fries me. I realize it doesn't happen too often at the pro level, but it does go into the statistics as a runout. A D player is going to ride the 9 or shoot hard at every given opportunity and will win more than his fair share just on slop. And I am surprised that no one mentioned that before.

Good point rackmsuckr, which was exactly my point in my previous post. I admit that 8ball is an easier game to runout, but a lesser skilled player is still more likely to beat a higher skilled player in 9ball.

I'm not talking about D player vs pro player. In any game, the D player will lose the match all the time. I'm still talking about very good players, but still a substantial difference in skill level between them. For example, take your typical pool hall pro versus Efren. I'm arguing that in 9ball, this pool hall pro (PHP) will win a greater percentage of 9ball racks against Efren, although both percentages will still be rather small. Why do I say that? Just a couple examples...

Look at safety play...In 9ball, safety play is more trivial. You basically have to keep another ball between your cue ball and the next ball in the run sequence. In 8ball, things get more complicated, especially if there are a significant number of balls still left on the table. It's a lot tougher to hide the cue ball such there is no direct line of sight between the cue ball and any of your opponent's 8 remaining balls. If the PHP fails to finish a break and runout in 8ball and does not have a clear shot for his remaining one or two balls, the game is pretty much a done deal when Efren comes to the table with a wide open table. In 9ball, there is still a chance the PHP can make an adequate safety to snooker Efren.

Look at luck...If the PHP breaks and is greeted with a nice 1-9 combo in the corner poket, then he'd win without having to run the rest of the rack. Of course it doesn't have to be 1-9, but 2-9, 3-9...etc. A game ending "prematurely" like this never happens in 8ball, unless Efren accidentally knocks the 8ball in during his runout. The likelihood of this ever happening is close to zero. Not so for a 1-9 combo after the break (not to mention knocking the 9 ball in during the break).

Look at clusters...In 9ball, if the PHP fails to break out a cluster during his run, it is NOT an absolute given he loses the rack because Efren still is required to solve this same cluster (if the PHP chooses to play a safety instead of continuing the run). Half of the clusters in 8ball deal only with your own balls. If the PHP fails to break out his own cluster, Efren wouldn't have to worry about this cluster when it's his turn at the table. It would be a done deal.

Again, just because 8ball is an easier game to runout doesn't make it an overall easier game to play at a high level. There was a previous post where the poster said he'd rather choose to play Earl in 8ball rather than in 9ball. I would disagree. For the reasons I mentioned above, i wouldn't hesitate to choose 9ball as the game of choice against the pros. Sure my chances of winning are still close to nill, but it still would be a greater percentage of nill.

 

[buddha162]

You are absolutely wrong in your analysis. A local pro will stand the best chance against a world class player if they're playing 8 Ball. He would need the 7 out to even have a chance against Efren, or Archer, or any of the top Asian players if the game were 9ball.

Your scenarios surrounding an early end to a 9ball rack revolves around luck. Efren has as good a chance as the local pro to kick in a 9ball on the break, or combo an easy 1-9 hanger. But playing 8ball, the local pro stands as good a chance to win based on his skill alone.

As good as Efren is, 8-ball is simply too unchallenging to provide a decent test of skill between him and (gasp!) even a top A player. That's the sad truth about 8ball, it simply does not challenge players at the top level.

-Roger

 

[jsp]

Your scenarios surrounding an early end to a 9ball rack revolves around luck. Efren has as good a chance as the local pro to kick in a 9ball on the break, or combo an easy 1-9 hanger.

Luck is my point exactly. There is more luck in 9ball than in 8ball, which is why the local pro has more of a chance to beat Efren, if luck happens to fall his way. If you want a game where luck is almost no factor, then they should play one-pocket. Hmm...isn't it surprising that Efren wins almost all the one-pocket tournaments he enters? (Take the past two DCC one-pocket events.)

But playing 8ball, the local pro stands as good a chance to win based on his skill alone.

I don't know what point you're trying to make. You don't think the local pro can use his skill alone to run a rack of 9ball? Again, we're not talking D players. If the local pro has an open rack of 9ball after the break, i'd expect him to run out more than 50% the time.

As good as Efren is, 8-ball is simply too unchallenging to provide a decent test of skill between him and (gasp!) even a top A player. That's the sad truth about 8ball, it simply does not challenge players at the top level.

Again, if you want a game that truly provides the best test of one's skill and have luck be a non-factor, then one-pocket is the way to go. Unfortunately one-pocket is just too boring of a game for the general public to watch.

To summarize my points once again, I believe that 8ball is still an easier game to runout, given an easy rack. When it comes to racks that are not easy to runout, 8ball is much more a test of a player's skill than 9ball.

 

[Gregg]

No matter what game is played, be it eight ball, nine ball, straight, or one pocket, the "luck" factor at the start of the match is equivalent for both shooters.

Cream always rises to the top.

It's not like you see B+ shooters smoking a Bustamonete, Reyes, or Archer in eight ball, is it? The top ranked shooters almost always find their way to the finals, with either format.

 

[Gregg]

As good as Efren is, 8-ball is simply too unchallenging to provide a decent test of skill between him and (gasp!) even a top A player. That's the sad truth about 8ball, it simply does not challenge players at the top level.
-Roger

That like saying the New England Patriots are not challenged by the other 31 NFL teams available, and that they no longer care for the money, prestige, or ability to compete because it's too easy for them.

And we all know that's not the case at all, for NE or Efren Reyes.

 

[sixpack]

That like saying the New England Patriots are not challenged by the other 31 NFL teams available, and that they no longer care for the money, prestige, or ability to compete because it's too easy for them.

And we all know that's not the case at all, for NE or Efren Reyes.

Geesh, you could at least pick a good football team for this example

 

[Celtic]

The problem with the IPT is that the tables they are going to be using are going to have buckets compared to the US Open this year. TheOne is a great shortstop level player and getting a 10-1 against the ghost while strong and likely above what he would average I am not shocked. I played in a 8-ball on 9-foots event against some semi-pro/shortstop level players in Calgary and it was not at all rare for a person to run 4-5 racks in a race to 6 alternate break. There were quite a few matches where the winner did not miss and did not play safe, they ran out every first time at the table. This was on 9-foots with tables that play about as tight as the IPT tables will but it was on fast cloth.

I sent a email to the IPT about the pocket size they proposed and told them it was WAY too small at 4.5. The tables at the US Open this year were WAY smaller then that. The TV table I believe had 4 1/4 or maybe even 4 inch pockets, the non-TV tables were more like 3 3/4. THAT is how tight the IPT tables should be. Do that and I assure you that TheOne or any of the semi-pro level players in the event I played in wont be running out the huge amounts of tables. Get deep cut diamond tables with 3 3/4 pockets and slow nap cloth and THEN 8-ball will test the pro level players totally.

These 4 1/2 inch pockets are a joke, especially after the US Open showed us the pro's playing on sub-4 inch pockets and how much that improved the game and made it a challenge. The IPT tables are going to have buckets compared to the US Open and that is a HUGE mistake that I wish they would have fixed BEFORE the first event because changing the equipment AFTER the tour has already started once they realize the challenge is not to their liking is simply poor forethought on their part.

 

[lewdo26]

I have watched almost all the tapes from the Accu-stats invitational 8-ball tournament a few years ago. The general rule was that if the breaker got a ball in on the break he ran out no matter how tough the layout; if the breaker didn't get a ball on the break his opponent got a runout no matter how tough the layout. Most, especially Efren, studied the table a long time before starting their runout, then the ran out with very little delay between shots. This to me suggested that 8-ball takes more up front planning, but after that it is a done deal for players of world class caliber. I think that execution is easier in 8-ball because you have more control over the next shot you have to take. In 9-ball you more often are left with having to take a relatively tough shot. I don't know which is tougher but I think 9-ball makes tougher demands on shot making ability.

I recall it being stated in Phil Capelle's book that, in the Accu-stats 8 ball tournament, 44% of the games were decided in one inning (break&run). I'd have to look for the exact page and quote... I believe the average for top 9 ball players is about 30%.

I don't know if the slow cloth IPT will be using would help bring those stats down. I'm neither here nor there on the issue.

 

[TheOne]

The problem with the IPT is that the tables they are going to be using are going to have buckets compared to the US Open this year. TheOne is a great shortstop level player and getting a 10-1 against the ghost while strong and likely above what he would average I am not shocked. I played in a 8-ball on 9-foots event against some semi-pro/shortstop level players in Calgary and it was not at all rare for a person to run 4-5 racks in a race to 6 alternate break. There were quite a few matches where the winner did not miss and did not play safe, they ran out every first time at the table. This was on 9-foots with tables that play about as tight as the IPT tables will but it was on fast cloth.

I sent a email to the IPT about the pocket size they proposed and told them it was WAY too small at 4.5. The tables at the US Open this year were WAY smaller then that. The TV table I believe had 4 1/4 or maybe even 4 inch pockets, the non-TV tables were more like 3 3/4. THAT is how tight the IPT tables should be. Do that and I assure you that TheOne or any of the semi-pro level players in the event I played in wont be running out the huge amounts of tables. Get deep cut diamond tables with 3 3/4 pockets and slow nap cloth and THEN 8-ball will test the pro level players totally.

These 4 1/2 inch pockets are a joke, especially after the US Open showed us the pro's playing on sub-4 inch pockets and how much that improved the game and made it a challenge. The IPT tables are going to have buckets compared to the US Open and that is a HUGE mistake that I wish they would have fixed BEFORE the first event because changing the equipment AFTER the tour has already started once they realize the challenge is not to their liking is simply poor forethought on their part.

Hey Celtic I love the way you always pigeon hole me as a short stop but thats ok. I kinda take it as a compliment because after 10 years out of the game I haven't reached half the player I used to be. So if I can compete at less than 50% and u class me as a short stop at this speed then thats good enough for me. Maybe one day I can put in the hours like Neils and all the other top pros and maybe then I'll see what I really can acheive.

PS
Two years ago in the BCA I ran out 25 of 28 racks I got a shot in first visit, two of those racks I missed the 8 ball, one game was a safety battle.

 

[Celtic]

Hey Celtic I love the way you always pigeon hole me as a short stop but thats ok.

Hey TheOne. There have been many threads about what a "shortstop" level is and it has largely been agreed upon on the forum that shortstops are extremely good players that are capable of beating the top pro's in the game and simply have not really reached that top echelon and broke through.

when i was growing up a shortstop was someone who was like a state champion and not a world beater

I've come to the conclusion that a shortstop is a player good enough to get the cash pretty consoistently at home but not good enough to succeed at mixing it up with the pros or the good road players. I would think most shortstops would qualify as A+ level players.

I have heard the very same. as a strong player who is just a couple notches below the top notch players.

A good local player who usually can't get by the better to top players. They seem to have the tools but may be part time players who have have jobs or just not really dedicated players. It's not really an insult but describes that type of player. They have also been known to move to player status if they become so inclined. When a road player is told a guy is a short stop, it means you will win but will have to work for it, the guy isn't a pushover or a dog, just a little weaker player who you should be able to beat but will have to play hard to do it.

I thought a shortstop was a home town guy that did not travel, but if a road player came to town and plays the shortstop. He either loses all his bank roll, or kills all his action, or both..........thus a "short stop".....

So...basically like Mark Tadd said...at "State" Champion, but not a Pro.

That is probably a perfect description of a short-stop. To become a top player you have to get past the short-stops.

From what I understand, it's a player good enough to beat anyone at any given time, but, could also lose to anyone, at any given time.

A shortstop is a player that plays lower pro level pretty often, but is not good enough to beat the real pros very often. He is the guy that is usually barred from almost all local tournaments, but can barely cash in the larger Open tournaments. Pretty bad spot to be stuck in.

I heard (urban legend) that a shortstop got their name because they clean up the cash in the area, but the cash is just making a "shortstop" before a top player takes it off their hands.

A shortstop is someone who plays damn good but is not quite on the pro level.

If you actually take offense by me calling you a shortstop level player then I guess thats your problem.

 

[TheOne]

Im not bothered, I just find it strange that you keep saying this and you've never seen me play and you know nothing about my game?

I know what I am capable of and its a hell of a lot more than a "short stop" so I don't mind what you or anyone else thinks.

But thanks for the reply




















If you actually take offense by me calling you a shortstop level player then I guess thats your problem.[/QUOTE]

 

[Celtic]

Im not bothered, I just find it strange that you keep saying this and you've never seen me play and you know nothing about my game?

Actually you have posted a link to your 8-ball runout video in Vegas, you posted a video of your attempted 100 ball run. You told the board in great detail all about your match with Efren. You have told the board in great detail all your pool exploits all over your trip across the States, Europe, and Asia. Noone on this board has flaunted their game quite as much as you have or given as many examples of how they shoot. Noone on this board knows "nothing" about your game thanks to you making sure of it.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Actually you have posted a link to your 8-ball runout video in Vegas, you posted a video of your attempted 100 ball run. You told the board in great detail all about your match with Efren. You have told the board in great detail all your pool exploits all over your trip across the States, Europe, and Asia. Noone on this board has flaunted their game quite as much as you have or given as many examples of how they shoot. Noone on this board knows "nothing" about your game thanks to you making sure of it.

And a great many of us enjoyed and appreciated following Craig's adventure of putting his money where his mouth was and going out to live the pool player's dream.

I never thought it came accross as braggish or arrogant. Though, anyone with serious pool ambitions should have a degree of confidence in their abilities.

I find it quite understandable that Craig would want to share his journeys with like minded folk, kind of like having some friends with you on a lonely and difficult journey. I hope more will do as Craig has done in the future and share their highs and lows and experiences.

btw: Shortstop seems to me a terrible choice of word. Even if a bunch of people agreed that it meant near superstar, it still has a negative connotation. What about medium pro or fringe pro in contrast to top level pro.

 

[LastTwo]

Craig is definately above shortstop level.

 

[buddha162]

I don't know what point you're trying to make. You don't think the local pro can use his skill alone to run a rack of 9ball? Again, we're not talking D players. If the local pro has an open rack of 9ball after the break, i'd expect him to run out more than 50% the time.

And Efren will be out 90% of the time.

What if the local pro had an open rack of 8-ball to run? would it be around 90%? If not, he's no pro by any stretch of the imagination. He wouldn't even be considered an A player! Faced with an open rack of 8ball, I'm out 80% of the time, and I'm a nobody, an average B player around these parts.

Why does Efren win every one-pocket tourney he enters? Because one-pocket is a game that actually test players' skill at the highest level, it actually separates the boys from the men. It's a game that allow Efren to shine, to rise head and shoulders above your average pro.

Luck means nothing to an analysis between 8 ball and 9 ball, not in the context of your argument. Remember (yet again!!!) that the question here is Will 8ball challenge world class players? and I believe that the shortstop/open level is pretty much the pinnacle of 8ball achievement, meaning an average open player will have about as good of a chance to beat world class players playing 8ball, with everything else being equal. This eclipse any lucky "rolls" you might get playing 9ball, and as I've mentioned those rolls can go either way. People like to exaggerate the luck factor in 9ball but at the pro level it is almost zero.

Bottom line is, there's a reason why 9ball is the game of choice among pros, shortstops, A-C level players, gamblers, etc, and 8ball is the game of choice among begginers...it's because 9ball requires a much higher degree of execution, a larger repertoire of shots and generally possesses a much, much higher ceiling of difficulty.

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

That like saying the New England Patriots are not challenged by the other 31 NFL teams available, and that they no longer care for the money, prestige, or ability to compete because it's too easy for them.

That's a retarded analogy, and you've completely missed my point.

A better analogy would be: if NE were forced to play a version of football where you score 6 points simply by tossing the football into the end zone. No passes, no running, just the QB trying to hit the end zone with the football.

In case you missed my point again, here's the breakdown:

The above version of football would be analogous (albeit exaggerated) to 8ball, and the real version of football would be analogous to 9ball. In either case, the "full" version of each game provides enough challenges to test the players at the top level, whereas the retarded version does not.

I hope you now understand my original point. If you do, then we can argue the merits of our respective positions.

-Roger

 

[ironman]

Buddah162

I have to agree with you. If you aren't out 90% of the time, you just ain't ready. I'll say it again, after watching how some of these Pros play 8-ball, a lot of A and B players are gonna go back to drawing board and face some tough reality. We all learned to play 8-ball and then moved on to something more challenging.
Comparing the skills of an "A" player to the skills of a touring Pro is like comparing Allison to Archer. She plays well and she is going to win some games, but, the cream is going to come to the top. They are playing races to 9, eight ball and it is going to be grueling and this alone gives the stronger player a fomidable advantage.
I'll just say it once again, that the amatuers should really watch and learn at how some of these guys are going to make things look so routine. For those who are impressed, it will improve your game.