8 BALL - A true test for world class players?

Rude Dog said:
maybe 20 have a great chance to win. 50 have absolutely no chance. The rest are shortstops who can get a good draw, get the rolls, and play well, and if they get lucky, they can win. What's wrong with being a shortstop? TheOne, it really isn't a negative thing to be called a shortstop. Peace, John.

If you considered yourself to be in the 20 capable of winning it maybe you would think that :D

But likes been said it might be just the term. But honestly form what I am reading and have read the term "short stop" can be used in a derogatary way, and I beleive that it may have been on this occassion. But I had had about 20 beers at the time and like they say opinions are like a**holes, veryone has one :p

LastTwo, thanks, I must have been on one of my lucky "hot streaks" hehe



Willie, did you know "TheHalfaTwo" is actually slang for "sheep shagger" in Wales, how dare you insult me in such a way! You just wait until I come to your place and play some straight pool, just "ewe" and me baby! :D
 
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Celtic said:
You see I "don't" consider shortstop as a derogatory term. I see it as a term that implies a person is at the semi-pro level, which is why in my original post I said "semi-pro/shortstop level" as if they are one in the same. Therefore when I was calling you a good "shortstop" I was actually placing you on a pretty high level of play of upper echelon semi-pro, and you took offense to it.

Your book you mention has an episode in it when Tony runs into Paul Potier and he is basically construed as a "shortstop" as he smokes some local for cash. I pretty much agree that Paul Potier is in fact a shortstop, but if you know how he plays then you would know that he is an extremely talented player. Other people I would consider a shortstop are Tommy Kennedy, Joey Korsiak, Santos Sambojon, Glen Atwel, and other extremely gifted players that are just a step below that upper echelon of players such as Efren, Archer, Bustamenta, Hohman, Feijen, ect... I am sorry but I dont see you along side Pagulayan, Wu, and the other top players, I see you on the step below with players that are nevertheless tremendously talented. Most players dont have a prayer of ever even reaching the shortstop level of play as I define it and Mark Tadd explained it.
I'm not trying to start and argument with you Celtic, but.............I think you might be a bit off base if you feel that Santos is a shortstop. (Or at the very least, feel that Santos plays even with some of the of the other "shortstops" you mentioned.) Your list of "shortstops" has a pretty varying level of talent on it. JMO
 
dogginda9 said:
I'm not trying to start and argument with you Celtic, but.............I think you might be a bit off base if you feel that Santos is a shortstop. (Or at the very least, feel that Santos plays even with some of the of the other "shortstops" you mentioned.) Your list of "shortstops" has a pretty varying level of talent on it. JMO

I would have to agree, but hell what do I know, I still dont even know what it means lol!

Why do people use something that can mean so many different things to so many different people, and unless you all agree on the meaning on the face of it it doesn't that complimentary!

For players above A level I would probably use:
- semi-pro (for someone who's as good as a pro but does somthing else for a living)
- pro for players that are of pro level and only play pool
- Top Pro/world class Pro, for the very top 50 or so players in the world.

or something like that anyway :eek:
 
TheOne said:
Willie, did you know "TheHalfaTwo" is actually slang for "sheep shagger" in Wales, how dare you insult me in such a way! You just wait until I come to your place and play some straight pool, just "ewe" and me baby! :D

TheTwelfthofaDozen,
Dang, man; I didn't know whales even talked, much less had slang. It must be those European whales.

I've never studied Welsh or even that language they use in England; but it's sad if they have to have a term to cover "sheep shagging" (and doubly sad if you know this - all the girls said you were such a nice looking bloke). Anyway, I suppose if I had to choose between the two, then "shortstop" would definitely be the lesser of two evils.

If you are anywhere near the great corn forest of Indiana, there is always free room, board, and pool here at Betmore's Tavern and Billiards Parlor. I've had a weekly straight pool game with a former #1 in the world (definitely a "non-shortstop") so my 14.1 has been improving by leaps and bounds - all the way up to mediocre at present. But I love to play (obscure "Wayne's World" reference).
 
Roadhouse?

Williebetmore said:
Ferrous-man,
Excellent "Roadhouse" Patrick Swayzee reference. I do not disagree with you; I understand it means different things to different people (based on locale or experience). I understand that it IS a derogatory comment for some people. I was just trying to support the point to TheOne that it isn't necessarily derogatory for everyone.

Never saw the movie, but my youngest daughter has seen every movie made and explained it to me.
Firstly, THEONE surely doesn't need me to defend him or his standing in this sport. I guess, it is more my problem because I just don't like Labels used by some people. Some people have to put very little into this game to get the results they get and sonetimes it just doesn't seem fair. Others work there butts off and often finish around the 9-12 area and are quite proud of themselves only to have someone refer to them as a shortstop. Many play this game on determination and heart alone. For them, I hold the utmost respect and really enjoy watching them play.
There really has been said too much about this and like I said, maybe it's just a problem I have with labels.
As far as Patrick Swayze goes, I get mistaken for him all the time. No, wait a minute, my daughter said it was Walter Matthau instead.
 
rackmsuckr said:
I think it is easier for a lesser skilled player to WIN a game in 9 ball, given that slop accounts for a lot of early 9 balls, or a slopped early ball that resulted in a runout. And that just fries me. :mad: I realize it doesn't happen too often at the pro level, but it does go into the statistics as a runout. A D player is going to ride the 9 or shoot hard at every given opportunity and will win more than his fair share just on slop. And I am surprised that no one mentioned that before.

... If slop wasn't allowed in 9 ball, I would enjoy playing it much more.

tap tap tap
 
Celtic said:
The problem with the IPT is that the tables they are going to be using are going to have buckets compared to the US Open this year. .

??? How can this be? They're going to be the same exact tables. And when I mean the same tables, I mean the same tables.

Fred
 
buddha162 said:
You are absolutely wrong in your analysis. A local pro will stand the best chance against a world class player if they're playing 8 Ball. He would need the 7 out to even have a chance against Efren, or Archer, or any of the top Asian players if the game were 9ball.

Your scenarios surrounding an early end to a 9ball rack revolves around luck. Efren has as good a chance as the local pro to kick in a 9ball on the break, or combo an easy 1-9 hanger. But playing 8ball, the local pro stands as good a chance to win based on his skill alone.

As good as Efren is, 8-ball is simply too unchallenging to provide a decent test of skill between him and (gasp!) even a top A player. That's the sad truth about 8ball, it simply does not challenge players at the top level.

-Roger

I don't know about this. I think I hear you agreeing with the earlier poster that an early end to 9 ball revolves around luck, and adding that the luck applies equally to either player. I'm also reading that you agree with the earlier poster that the luck mentioned is much less of a factor in 8 ball - you say playing 8 ball, the PHP wins, if he wins, on his skill alone. So far, you and the earlier poster agree, and I agree with all of it.

But I see you concluding based on that, that the PHP would have a better chance in 8 ball. That, I can't see.

Based on skill alone the PHP is never or very rarely going to win, because his skill level is just not as good. Let's say for argument's sake that the PHP will get 10% of the games he plays against Efren, based on skill alone. In 8 ball, where it's being argued that skill is the only factor, if they play 100 matches (lets make the math easy), the PHP wins ten.

Now add the luck factor - as in 9 ball. Let's say for argument's sake, that the outcome of 10% of the games is determined by luck, rather than skill. And this luck, as we said, applies equally to either player. So in the 100 match scenario, ten matches are determined by luck. Equally distributed (which doesn't always happen), that means the PHP gets five and Efren gets five. There are 90 more matches whose outcome is decided on skill. Based on the same 10% estimate as we used in 8 ball, the PHP will win 9 of them. So altogether in the 100 match 9 ball race, the PHP wins 14 games.

100 matches - no luck, the PHP gets 10. Throw in some luck, he gets 14.

Mathematically, there's a line where the luck becomes insignificant. It would occur when the skill levels were such that the lesser player based on skill alone would win about 50% of the matches. At that point, the number he would win based on skill vs luck would not change.

If you're going to play a *much* better player, mathematically speaking, a game which includes the opportunity to win by luck is the better choice.
 
whitewolf said:
Could be that the IPT is making the tables easy to accomodate the ladies and the old timers.:confused:

This begs the question though as to who exactly will benefit from the huge pockets?:confused:

What are you guys talking about??? Who in the world said the pockets were going to be bigger? They're the same tables that were used at the US Open.

Stop spreading lies.

Fred
 
TheOne said:
I would have to agree, but hell what do I know, I still dont even know what it means lol!:

You're a shortstop. Take it as a compliment.

Fred <~~~ nowhere near "shortstop" level
 
Cornerman said:
??? How can this be? They're going to be the same exact tables. And when I mean the same tables, I mean the same tables.

Fred

From the IPT website Q & A

Kevin T said:
QUESTION:
Why such small 41/2 inch pockets?

ANSWER:
These are not small pockets. These are the correct size pockets! It's amazing to me that pool table manufacturers actually make pockets 51/4 inch and larger. They are also cut in such a way that you could hit a ball almost halfway down the rail and it will still go in the pocket. These large buckets penalize the better player. Four and a half inch, tight pockets are designed to help show who the better, more accurate player is. This is one of the most important aspects of the IPT. Think about this: you are in an archery competition. You take your bow and arrow and shoot five arrows right in the bull's-eye. Your opponent shoots his five arrows and never once hits the bull's-eye. His arrows are all around the bull's-eye, but not in the bull's-eye. How would you feel if both of you were given the exact same score and were told it was a tie? You would say it's not a tie; I am a much better archer than my opponent. I put my five arrows directly in the bulls eye; he didn't even hit the bulls eye once, yet he is given the same score. It's not fair. It does not show who the better archer is. The same holds true in pool. If you have a very large pocket and an expert pool player is putting the balls directly in the center of the pocket, and a weaker player is missing the center of the pocket, but still having the ball go in, it does not show who the better player is. A small, tight, 41/2 inch pocket demands accuracy. Combine this with the slow-nap cloth, which demands power, and now you can really see who the better player is! The weak frauds will be exposed. The best players will rise to the top. I believe the world will be amazed by who are in fact the best pool players in the world.

If they are using the same tables (and I assume you mean the exact same actual tables, not just Diamonds because they can have different pocket sizes) then they are most definately NOT 4 1/2 inches as described on the IPT website as the official equippment. The only table that was even 4 1/4 was the TV table, the non-TV tables were 3/16ths tighter.

I have heard nothing of the IPT using the actual US Open tables used in that event. I knew they were using diamonds, but not the actual US Open tables. I thought some of the US Open tables actually sold already, they are still on sale to this day on the US Open website. Where did you hear that the IPT King of the Hill is going to use the US Open tables?
 
TheOne said:
Better than a shortstop! :D :eek:

There is only one step above shortstop, are you hear now claiming you are right there with Alex, Efren, Earl, Niels, Wu ect...?

You have self admitted ignorance about what "shortstop" means, despite countless efforts to enlighten you.

Sorry, but Efren Reyes, Alex Pagulayan, Neils Feijen, ect... are better then you and on a higher level. You have done nothing to prove otherwise. I think any one of them likely would have made it through the WPA qualifiers with relative ease. It would be shocking if any of them went 2 and out to Lee Holt and BJ Ussery at the US Open. Their shining moment is not getting 3rd in a Hard Times event with a strong field full of very good shortstops and few (2) top pros and few second teir pros (2) in the top 24. It is not surprising when they get 3rd in an event like that, it is a disapointing showing for them.

You play shortstop level pool. It is a high level of play. It is not the top level of play. Deal with it or get better and change it by winning a couple premier events and not getting drilled by "other" shortstops like Gerald Jamito, Lee Holt, Ussery, ect...
 
Celtic said:
. I thought some of the US Open tables actually sold already, they are still on sale to this day on the US Open website. Where did you hear that the IPT King of the Hill is going to use the US Open tables?

The tables that were used at the US Open are the same tables that were used a few weeks later at whatever the next professional event was. The Diamond team carts around Diamond Pro tables with single-piece slate to the events. I'm sure they sell some, but the vast majority are the same tables.

Diamond got the contract for the IPT tournaments, and began setting up their tables, the same tables used at the other events, in Orlando last week. Now, I say this and I could be completely wrong because they have a new leveling system which may or may not be retrofit on the existing tables. I assume they are, but that's where I could be wrong.

Nevertheless, Mark Griffin (Diamond partner) put up a post a week or two ago about it. Greg Sullivan discussed this with me on the phone about a week ago as well. The tables won't have "buckets" as you put it. They are Diamond Pros that with the thicker cloth will put them in the 4 1/2" pocket tolerance that KT is looking for. They will be the same specs. as the US Open, but with different cloth on them.



Fred
 
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TheOne said:
Better than a shortstop! :D :eek:
When do you plan on coming out here again? To the west coast? I'll play you some even up, 9 ball, for as much as you want. Then, after we get done, there's 10 more guys that will be waiting in line to play you, win or lose. All shortstops. If you beat all of us, which ain't gonna happen, but if you do, then you can be whatever you want. You're a shortstop at best Craig, what's the problem with that? Until you can prove otherwise, be happy. Where are all your championship match wins? Did you go 2 and out at the U.S. Open? Maybe not, but I thought I read that somewhere, maybe in this thread. Who have you beat for the money that was better than a shortstop? I can't believe how much attention you're getting over this shortstop label. You play good, but how good do you really think you are? Better than a shortstop, you already said that, but how much better? Name a top pro, or just a pro, that you think you play even with. That's all you gotta do, then beat him, then see what people say about your game.
 
AlterEgo said:
Mathematically, there's a line where the luck becomes insignificant. It would occur when the skill levels were such that the lesser player based on skill alone would win about 50% of the matches.

That's not what I'm contending. I'm saying that the PHP stand a better chance against Efren if they're playing a simpler, easier game, not that he/she would actually win half the time...regardless of what game they choose to play.

Let's pretend that 8ball is played with a total of 5 balls: two stripes, two solids, and the 8; everything else stays the same...would you be making the same argument? There's still no luck involved, or at least no luck that revolves around ending the game early. Would you still argue that since there's a luck factor to 9ball, a 5-ball version of 8ball is still the harder game for a lesser player to win?

My point is that 8ball is the easier, simpler game, and that negates any luck factor which might or might not come into play in 9ball. To me this is completely uncontroversial, and that a lesser player stands a much better chance against Efren when the game in question can be controlled by either party, ie the game does not test the upper reaches of Efren's talent and to a large degree can be played perfectly by the average A player.

-Roger
 
Celtic said:
There is only one step above shortstop, are you hear now claiming you are right there with Alex, Efren, Earl, Niels, Wu ect...?

There are 200 players in Taiwan alone who shoots between a shortstop level and an Alex, Efren, Earl...at least by every def of "shortstop" I've ever come across, except for your's.

-Roger
 
8 ball played right is Tight!!!!

I am a 8 ball and straight pool lover ! either game is full of challenges for the best of players.
 
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