A Letter from Barry Behrman...anyone share the same opinions expressed here?

This is a very controversial topic. The players need to have a say as they know they game better than anyone, however Having a business mind working on strategy plans and operation in the background would be the best way to go inmy opinion and let them play pool by a set of standardized rules that the players all vote upon.

At that point the players have to be willing to follow direction even if there appears tobe no money in it at that time. Like community work, charity events etc. Exposure is what is needed and unfortunatly the Pros of today can't afford togotravel to something and spenda couple of days working for free and won't do it for the most part. On the other side of it the people on the biz endof things need to get sponsorship to at least pay their expenses if they are going to even consider getting the Pros to a charity event but without the exposure the sponsors aren't going to do it. Therefore we are in a catch 22 situation here.

There is no sponsorship because there is no exposure and there is no exposure because there is no sponsorship.

Now I know that there are alot of industry people out there that sponsor players, tournaments etc but none of them it seems are willing to come off for the $$ it would take to make a major pro tour happen. So you say "Go outside the industry and look for major corporations to sponsor. Well I have contacted personally, Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, Bud, Go Daddy and others that I thought would be a good avenue and where they could justify spending the sponsorship dollars. They all show interest but want to see the numbers. Demographics, attendance at the events. Well to them these numbers don't add up. If you are not reaching at least a million people they don't want to know. So whats do we do?? put it on ESPN or cable tv. Great that solves all the problems right? Yes it does if you can afford to have ESPN come to your event and tape at somewherearound $60 k a day I think, might be $30k I am sure someone will correct me on that. So the sponsorship dollars now have to go up. So we are asking the potential sponsor for ALOT more money based on what?? We have no idea what the numbers would look like right out the gate.

Well like I said very controversial and it has so many arms and legs to it that without a mulitmillionaire or big Corp willing to take a chance and the players willing to follow instruction even when it seems like it don't make sense we are going to be stuck.

I do not want to be negative here as I do all I can to stay positive and hope that something may happen someday. I go back to the youtube videos called "When Snooker ruled the world" if you havn't seen it take a look it shows how the players were all different and had their own persona that made people watch them if they loved them or hated them.

I hope I have not offended anyone but its just the way I see it.
 
In particular, I like and share the same view as the last sentence. "Pool players should do what they love, play pool and leave the business aspect to those who know how to run a business with success for everyone, especially the players."
 
"A slice of PIE, please!"

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8012
read Barry's letter and his thoughts on how to take pool to the next level....anyone else share the same or have different views?

"Who wouldn't feel the way Barry Behrman does in this letter, exposed to a grass roots group of people that appreciate you, and what you do well, play pool!"
I absolutely concur Mr. Berhamn!

Now this part was covered in another thread recently. For the kind of money needed to advance this sport there has to be a known, calculable, market, in existence, for outside advertising money to get involved. Maybe, that will even end up being part 2, someday. However, what I believe is part 1, is offered here, as an alternative approach to obtaining outside money, right now! You follow someone who has a plan to organize, promote and get the money to advance the sport of pool from within. Today, that's Mark Griffin, with the U.S.A. Pool leagues!

To connect the fans, players, and pro's, and establish that this sport has a knowable market base, we need to have actual numbers that matter. To achieve that, there has to be a plan to connect the fans and average pool players to the Pro's and a Professional Tournament trail every year! For our sport to grow into the type of business Barry is desiring to see, we need a realistic vision of how to achieve that! Because, what Barry Behrman is advocating here, is entirely possible, RIGHT NOW! I guess we really just need to get things started

Seems like maybe Barry Behrman, and Mark Griffin, should get to together and talk things over!
You never know, if 2 business men could agree, on some kind of path to the future of this sport, there might even be hope for World Peace!

Nah, maybe just a bigger peice of the "pie," for the pool world. :rolleyes:
 
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In particular, I like and share the same view as the last sentence. "Pool players should do what they love, play pool and leave the business aspect to those who know how to run a business with success for everyone, especially the players."

YUP... thats probably why there is no pro tour.
 
A Letter From Barry Behrman

I just read an article that said Efren Reyes was top money winner over the last 10 years in tournaments 1.7 million dollars.
They thought that was a fantastic thing. Thats an average of $170,000 a year to the worlds best player.
Think of how many hundreds of tournaments he played in all over the world in that 10 years.
How many days in motels , tournament entry fees, travel costs. Plus daily costs to live which are not unique but are relative.
Now imagine what the number 2 guy made then number 10 then number 30, 50, 100.
My best guess would be that the bottom 50 or 60 of the top 100 players the last 10 years had to supplement their tournament travels with money from gambling or a rich uncle or whatever. Mr. Behrman blames the players for the present state of our great game, I blame Mr. Behrman and some of the other promoters who have not done their job.
Part of their job should have been to find ways to make their venue grow each year, so that there are bigger paydays for everyone Some of the tournament promoters have done this some have not.
He said he wished he was 20 years younger....well he was close to that when he started, It's a shame whatever great idea he has now he didn't think of back then.
Maybe he can give his ideas to someone else and they can help the players in his stead.
I believe the players were truly ready to do just about whatever it took , including some sacrifice at first to make the IPT work.
Unfortunately it was just another way for 1 person to make money and the players to lose out.
In my opinion any tournament that has been running and is not growing has a poor manager.
I have an idea that I think might work , I am going to submit it to the Players Organization for their use.
Perhaps some of you also have ideas you might like to give them .
It's fine to talk but it means nothing if the correct people never hear it.
I for one do not blame the players for trying to help themselves , I think it has become a necessity for their survival rather than anything else.
 
mr book collector you obviously dont know the players history
they cannot handle the business-trust history sir
 
I just read an article that said Efren Reyes was top money winner over the last 10 years in tournaments 1.7 million dollars.
They thought that was a fantastic thing. Thats an average of $170,000 a year to the worlds best player.
Think of how many hundreds of tournaments he played in all over the world in that 10 years.
How many days in motels , tournament entry fees, travel costs. Plus daily costs to live which are not unique but are relative.
Now imagine what the number 2 guy made then number 10 then number 30, 50, 100.
My best guess would be that the bottom 50 or 60 of the top 100 players the last 10 years had to supplement their tournament travels with money from gambling or a rich uncle or whatever. Mr. Behrman blames the players for the present state of our great game, I blame Mr. Behrman and some of the other promoters who have not done their job.
Part of their job should have been to find ways to make their venue grow each year, so that there are bigger paydays for everyone Some of the tournament promoters have done this some have not.
He said he wished he was 20 years younger....well he was close to that when he started, It's a shame whatever great idea he has now he didn't think of back then.
Maybe he can give his ideas to someone else and they can help the players in his stead.
I believe the players were truly ready to do just about whatever it took , including some sacrifice at first to make the IPT work.
Unfortunately it was just another way for 1 person to make money and the players to lose out.
In my opinion any tournament that has been running and is not growing has a poor manager.
I have an idea that I think might work , I am going to submit it to the Players Organization for their use.
Perhaps some of you also have ideas you might like to give them .
It's fine to talk but it means nothing if the correct people never hear it.
I for one do not blame the players for trying to help themselves , I think it has become a necessity for their survival rather than anything else.

If there a single thing that the new players association can do to help themselves, that would be............to ensure that the promoter has the prize money in holding before the payers send in their entry. Who wants to play in a tournament and not get paid !!!!!! REALLY !!!!
 
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Bottom line is until someone comes with a self supporting model for pro events in this country nothing will change. Period. Full stop.

As it sits all tournaments need someone to basically donate $25,000. Best case is you break even. Most times that doesn't happen I could write down a list as long as my arm but I am lazy. Barry has the longest running and on a year to year average highest paying event in the country. Why is it you suppose he doesn't do one a month? Because he likes his sanity and at least some of his money. I will print this in bold just to be clear:

TOURNAMENTS DO NOT MAKE FINANCIAL SENSE

The pros will go where the money is if it is stable and reliable. And if history is any judge they will soon thereafter shoot themselves squarely in the foot. If and when a model can be made that works (I suspect this will happen right after the widespread adaptation of cold fusion and free energy from sea water) the sole function of a player group should be to keep its members from pointing any guns at their feet.

Yes I am feeling rather upbeat and peachy this fine Sunday morning.

Mark Griffin has the only viable plan I have heard of in the USAPL. If there were 100,000 USAPL players we would have a legit pro tour with players making a living wage and a true minor league to major league career path for up and coming pro's and we wouldn't need to beg for money to do it. It is a self sustaining pro tour. This isn't an idea or a pipe dream it is up and running right now with money going into a fund for pro events. It's been in place now for awhile and yet few seem to know or care.
 
Pool in U.S.

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8012
read Barry's letter and his thoughts on how to take pool to the next level....anyone else share the same or have different views?


IMO the cultures are so different it would be difficult to replicate that spirited atttitude towards pool in the US anymore, too many other choices for Americans.

What you could do however, is think of hosting a "true" Mosconi Cup in the US and bring all the countries here, for an event that could capture lots of TV viewers, and sponsors. It could filter down to local/regional tournaments to compete for slots on Team America and bring some newcomers to pool who would watch pool on TV for patriotic reasons.

Pool in the US needs something very innovative to spur new interest.

And, it wouldn't hurt to have a movie on Efren's life. I place him alongside Jerry West and Sandy Koufax as my alltime heroes, as much for the humbleness as for the greatness. I always root for Efren no matter who he's playing, he transcends the patriotic reasons to root for your countrymen.
 
"Again with the $$$$$$$$"

I just read an article that said Efren Reyes was top money winner over the last 10 years in tournaments 1.7 million dollars.
They thought that was a fantastic thing. Thats an average of $170,000 a year to the worlds best player.
Think of how many hundreds of tournaments he played in all over the world in that 10 years.
How many days in motels , tournament entry fees, travel costs. Plus daily costs to live which are not unique but are relative.
Now imagine what the number 2 guy made then number 10 then number 30, 50, 100.
My best guess would be that the bottom 50 or 60 of the top 100 players the last 10 years had to supplement their tournament travels with money from gambling or a rich uncle or whatever. Mr. Behrman blames the players for the present state of our great game, I blame Mr. Behrman and some of the other promoters who have not done their job.
Part of their job should have been to find ways to make their venue grow each year, so that there are bigger paydays for everyone Some of the tournament promoters have done this some have not.
He said he wished he was 20 years younger....well he was close to that when he started, It's a shame whatever great idea he has now he didn't think of back then.
Maybe he can give his ideas to someone else and they can help the players in his stead.
I believe the players were truly ready to do just about whatever it took , including some sacrifice at first to make the IPT work.
Unfortunately it was just another way for 1 person to make money and the players to lose out.
In my opinion any tournament that has been running and is not growing has a poor manager.
I have an idea that I think might work , I am going to submit it to the Players Organization for their use.
Perhaps some of you also have ideas you might like to give them .
It's fine to talk but it means nothing if the correct people never hear it.
I for one do not blame the players for trying to help themselves , I think it has become a necessity for their survival rather than anything else.


Know this, promoters "LOSE MONEY on every Tournament, period, end of story!!!" Every promoter, every Tournament, and it's been like that forever!

A lot of yester-years great tournaments have come and gone. Why, no money in it! Like the Akron Open for example, great Tournament to be a part of a Pro Tournament trail, "GONE." An endless list that died from the same disease, poverty! "Great promoters, like Joe Kerr, spent their lives building up tournaments like that one. Through the hard work of Joe Kerr and the Starcher family that event survived until the next year, survived. You think Kerr or the Starchers, got rich off of that event? Recently, Greg Sullivan, has introduced the buy back formula, he says that scenario allows him to break even on the added money. Players have complained about the buy back format because, it makes the starting time's for the matches, unpredictable. But if the players had eight tournaments a year like DCC, I'll bet they'd learn to love that format despite the difficulties.

Promoters and room owners alike, build up a tournament stop, through years of hard work, at best, to see their event survive a while and then "Die on the Vine." Almost always, because there just wasn't enough support from within the local and regional, pool world to keep that event alive. The truly sad part is, the average "Ball-banging Joe" doesn't seem interested in experiencing or watching a tournament in person, anyway. Now that has to be changed someday soon, too. Barry Behrman, not only puts up his cash each year, for 35 years, but puts on one "helluva show!" Because He loves pool! With-out him-------- would a U.S.Open event, like this one, ever exist again? Well, maybe in the Philippines, oh yeah, forgot, its the U.S. Open!

Tournaments don't survive long with out fan based support! How many "normal pool players you know, that can tell you who Lee Van Corteza is, or Shane Van Boening, for that matter? So how does word of the game ever get to the general populous? Right now, it doesn't, it's just talked about among those who play and know about it. After all, the common working stiff is the potential T.V. audience the advertisers care about reaching. An audience, that for a lot of reasons, doesn't care or really, even exist right now! It's not the numbers that a "pool players only" audience can generate that will ultimately matter, those numbers are way to small to count! Eventually, the billiard news has to get out beyond the world of pool and into the real world, and interest in a Pro Tour is the only vehicle that will consistently do that job.
No Identity=NO MONEY which generates no interest, which means no audience for the advertisers, and that describes the "who cares attitude," both inside and outside the game!!!!
That "IS" the problem in the long run, and the promoters are it's biggest victims.And what the Pool Community is about to lose, could set the Sport of Pool back to being a parlor game in the U.S.!!! And all because the Pool playing community at large, hasn't cared enough about our sport to financially support the game itself, from within it's own ranks.

We're fortunate and very lucky to have some-one like Barry involved with the growth of this sport. Building the longest running tournament in Pool's history is a great accomplishment. Another person who's sacrificed all "for the Love of the Game," is Pat Flemming.
I wonder if "Accu-Stats" will be around for ever? Anybody here bought a DVD from them lately?

Fan based support, is something, every-one who's still breathing air can do right now, from where you sit, to help this sport continue at all! Buy a DVD, or maybe make plans to show up at the Open. You never know, you might start thinking like that and end up doing something positive for the benefit of the Sport, too!

By the way, "You think Trudeau made any money in Pool?"
 
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If Pool is to recover in the states it needs someone like Barry Hearn & Matchroom Sport to come in & work with the WPA & the BCA by saying from point A we will reconfigure the ranking system, take a look at 15 to 20 of the most important tour stops on calendar add in the Worlds, Masters, World Cup, US Open & Mosconi & build a tour slowly but surely.

Look at what he has done for Darts this season the players are playing for 5 Mil & Snooker which until 6 months ago was dead in the water he is slowly but surely bringing it back from the dead.

Also if anyone can bring in tv & sponsorship it's Mr Hearn, the pool events matchroom run have the most round the world exposure than any other pool promoter in the world if the BCA & WPA could put their differences aside, bite the bullet & invite Barry in to work with other promoters namely people like Mike Zuglan & Barry Behrman a proper money exposed tour could let the players be what they have strived for: Be Pool Players.

Just my 2 cents.
 
This is a very controversial topic. The players need to have a say as they know they game better than anyone, however Having a business mind working on strategy plans and operation in the background would be the best way to go inmy opinion and let them play pool by a set of standardized rules that the players all vote upon.

At that point the players have to be willing to follow direction even if there appears tobe no money in it at that time. Like community work, charity events etc. Exposure is what is needed and unfortunatly the Pros of today can't afford togotravel to something and spenda couple of days working for free and won't do it for the most part. On the other side of it the people on the biz endof things need to get sponsorship to at least pay their expenses if they are going to even consider getting the Pros to a charity event but without the exposure the sponsors aren't going to do it. Therefore we are in a catch 22 situation here.

There is no sponsorship because there is no exposure and there is no exposure because there is no sponsorship.

Now I know that there are alot of industry people out there that sponsor players, tournaments etc but none of them it seems are willing to come off for the $$ it would take to make a major pro tour happen. So you say "Go outside the industry and look for major corporations to sponsor. Well I have contacted personally, Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, Bud, Go Daddy and others that I thought would be a good avenue and where they could justify spending the sponsorship dollars. They all show interest but want to see the numbers. Demographics, attendance at the events. Well to them these numbers don't add up. If you are not reaching at least a million people they don't want to know. So whats do we do?? put it on ESPN or cable tv. Great that solves all the problems right? Yes it does if you can afford to have ESPN come to your event and tape at somewherearound $60 k a day I think, might be $30k I am sure someone will correct me on that. So the sponsorship dollars now have to go up. So we are asking the potential sponsor for ALOT more money based on what?? We have no idea what the numbers would look like right out the gate.

Well like I said very controversial and it has so many arms and legs to it that without a mulitmillionaire or big Corp willing to take a chance and the players willing to follow instruction even when it seems like it don't make sense we are going to be stuck.

I do not want to be negative here as I do all I can to stay positive and hope that something may happen someday. I go back to the youtube videos called "When Snooker ruled the world" if you havn't seen it take a look it shows how the players were all different and had their own persona that made people watch them if they loved them or hated them.

I hope I have not offended anyone but its just the way I see it.

Does anyone know what the viewership numbers are for pool on ESPN, esp. the WPBA?
 
Bottom line is until someone comes with a self supporting model for pro events in this country nothing will change. Period. Full stop.

As it sits all tournaments need someone to basically donate $25,000. Best case is you break even. Most times that doesn't happen I could write down a list as long as my arm but I am lazy. Barry has the longest running and on a year to year average highest paying event in the country. Why is it you suppose he doesn't do one a month? Because he likes his sanity and at least some of his money. I will print this in bold just to be clear:

TOURNAMENTS DO NOT MAKE FINANCIAL SENSE


Yes I am feeling rather upbeat and peachy this fine Sunday morning.

Mark Griffin has the only viable plan I have heard of in the USAPL. If there were 100,000 USAPL players we would have a legit pro tour with players making a living wage and a true minor league to major league career path for up and coming pro's and we wouldn't need to beg for money to do it. It is a self sustaining pro tour. This isn't an idea or a pipe dream it is up and running right now with money going into a fund for pro events. It's been in place now for awhile and yet few seem to know or care.

You are right about the not caring part. There isn't any USAPL in the area and if there were I would not be a member or participate in what amounts to a pool players tax to provide welfare to the pros.
 
http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8012
read Barry's letter and his thoughts on how to take pool to the next level....anyone else share the same or have different views?

Meh, what views? Mostly it was "if people cared more about watching the game and companies gave the game a whole bunch of money pool could be huge". Not exactly a ground breaking revelation... There are no thoughts on "how" to actually get that interest in the game into the common people or how to also get the companies to take notice and support the game. None whatsoever, so I am not sure what people are supposed to even agree or disagree with?

Also IMO Bowling in the last 10 years has if anything slipped in popularity. I remember it being on TV alot and a few of the more popular top ranked 10-pinners actually almost becomming somewhat famous. Now the game is rarely ever on TSN and seems to be followed only by die hard bowlers.

The same problem pro pool has, it is only followed by a small portion of die hard pool players. What the game really needs is to branch out and get people who are not actually die hard pool players interested in watching the game. Many people who don't play poker much still watch the game on TV. Most pro sports like Football, Hockey, Baseball, and even golf get their huge sponsership and viewship from people who are not actually players of the sports themselves to a serious degree, they are fans of the sport, but not competitors. Pool's only viewship comes mainly from hardcore players themselves, and that is a small pool of viewers to pull from.

What the game needs to do is somehow spur interest in the game from the general non-pool playing public or the average joes that once in a while plug a bar box and bang some balls around the table. They need to make the game exciting, and by default pro pool when played well becomes somewhat boring due to the control over the cueball.

I made a post ages ago about a point based rotational game with all 15 balls, each worth 1 point. The game would be vastly more difficult to master then current rotational games and even the pro's would be forced to pull out alot of the more impressive and difficult shots on a more regular basis which would in turn make the game more interesting to Banger Joe. But I am not a tournament director and I do not have the time, connections, or money to put the game out there so years later after I made the post we are still where we were back then pretty much. And 5 years after this post I expect nothing still to have changed.
 
I like how the players aren't juicing up to sell products. I like how the pool community is inventive in coming up with ways to compete against big money. I like how the players are not surrounded by handlers grooming them for big appearances, what to say, when to say something and who to reference when talking. I like how the female players are not on diets trying to score more advertisements.

They might not be making a fortune like other athletes but they are easy to relate to. And the business community that supports them is realistic and practical with what they do and want to do.

When I was in school the billiards community was an interesting study for my papers. The last thing I concluded was how the billiards community is not centralized. Keeping up with events and players spectators have to do internet acrobatics to find what they want, a central website that provides indexes to regional information would help "groupies" follow their progress. And the aging demographic in the pool community is a problem but it is a common problem.

I still can't figure out why people want to sell the sport. I know making money is important but that is not an objective that can be accomplished by players or club owners. The objectives players and club owners face are staying in business and paying bills. Pipe dreams like the IPT are failures that can repeat.
 
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thank you for the replies

as a business person, i struggle with fact that we dont have a tour that is profitable for more players.
 
I do agree with Barry about Corporations and Sposorship, but we must get money from outside of the Pool World to make it work. Being entirely reliant upon money from within any industry is simply a recipe for disaster. Pool players should do what they love , play pool, but most even top players have to earn extra income. What I would say is that someone needs to take hold of Pool and be the 'Guiding Light' there are simply too many Tours, too many Associations that it has become too fragmented. The top tier need a 'Brand', a single entity to move the top of the game forward. What I mean by a brand is such as the NFL or MLB are to Football or Baseball can you imagine where they'd be today without those Organisations?

Again I would agree with Barry in his statement "if only I were 20 years younger", I believe there is a major oppurtunity here. I am too old now to take on that worry, but would have done 20 years ago. If Efren only earned $1.7m over 10 years it shows what a bad state the game really is in. Can you imagine any other sportsman in any other sport as big as Pool earning that? Damn some College Football Players earn more than that allegedly.....oh that's right they don't get paid do they? Where on earth did I get that idea, I appologize for that mistake and retract that statement, I just don't lnow where the delete key is on this new computer:grin:
 
A letter

mr book collector you obviously dont know the players history
they cannot handle the business-trust history sir

I know of several instances that the promoters gave the players a short stick, I 'd like to know what business -trust you are talking about ? I do remember the top players all boycotted a big tournament in the 1970s anyone remember the name of that tournament?
 
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