A Pro Player opens his mouth......

[Russ Chewning]

Please know that not all pros think that way. Everyone started in the same place and it is horrible that some people forget that.

Sarah

Sarah,

I apologize if I ever made you think I was talking about female pros. I actually have been around many more female pros than male, and have almost always been impressed.

I used to play against Kerry Hartsfield in Washington state tourneys, and she was always very nice. Jeannette Lee held my son Kyle when he was around a year old and talked to us for a while when she came to Germany to do an exhibition, and she has always represented the best the game has to offer. I have never heard anyone ever say anything bad about Jeannette, or even that she ever acted inappropriately in any situation. She probably wants to win as badly as Earl, I get that sense from her, but she doesn't have any of the baggage Earl does.

Russ C.

 

[DUOBIS]

Funny you should say that! I personally believe that it is a horrible travesty that we even pay people for playing sports. It's not really their fault, though. It's society's fault for putting more emphasis on popular culture than on science and eduation. I don't watch sports on television at all, so your reasoning is not going to work with me.

It is the most terrible thing a parent can do to their child, encouraging them to practice hour after on (insert game here) for the mere "possibility" of becoming a millionaire someday. I guarantee I can take any child that is not mentally disabled, and I'll make them a millionaire if they listen to me:

1. Stay in school and get good grades
2. Go to college and get a degree in something everyone needs (i.e. Engineering)
3. Save 10% of everything you make over the next 25 years

Wa LA! The sure path to being a millionaire!

Going back to your original statement. No, I don't look up to Mike Tyson. Neither do I look up to Mohummad Ali.

They both punch people in the face for a living. There are criminals that do the same thing. 'Nuff said?

Ron Artest? No. In fact, I believe he should have been banned permanently from the game. The only reason he wasn't was the League with dollar signs in their eyes. Do I look up to Michael Jordan? Nope. He was just a guy who tossed a ball through a hoop. He did it better than a lot of other guys, but he was still tossing a ball through a hoop.

Jamal Lewis? I assume he is a foot ball player who did something wrong... Nope. Joe Namath? I don't look up to him either. Similar to other achievements stated above, he tossed a ball to other guys better than most. Wow. I sometimes toss a ball back and forth with my son in the back yard.

You wanna know who is a pimp? Jonas Salk. You mighta heard of him. Probably not, though. He was the dude that invented the polio vaccine. His work affected more people than Michael Jordan could ever hope to.

Johann Gutenberg? Another pimp. You mighta heard of him, too. I doubt it, though. He invented the printing press. He die broke and unknown for his influence. All these sports figures you talk about? Rich, but useless in the great panorama that is human existence. It shows you how jacked up our priorities are.

I say again. Pool is a hobby, not a profession. If you are a "pro pool player" who is doing this because they have a love of the game, then let that love sustain you, as the love of science and thirst for achievement drove scientists over the centuries. At least their suffering was of some value to someone.

Damn, I AM opinionated today, aren't I?

Russ C.

If everyone listened to your ways, there would be no "greats" in any sports. No Tigers, no Jordans, no Efrens. Even if they don't make it, 20 years down the road they won't be telling people that I "could" have been the best (or made a decent living) At least they gave it a shot.

 

[Russ Chewning]

If everyone listened to your ways, there would be no "greats" in any sports. No Tigers, no Jordans, no Efrens. Even if they don't make it, 20 years down the road they won't be telling people that I "could" have been the best (or made a decent living) At least they gave it a shot.

Not so. If they are doing it for the pure love of the game, then do it for the love of the game. Money is immaterial. I still play, but I don't make any money at it. I will practice when I get back from Iraq. Why? Because I love the game and I love the competition.

You would never hear me complaining there is not enough money in the game. It's like saying there is not enough money in skydiving team competitions. They do it because they like to do it, not for the money.

Russ C.

 

[ShootingArts]

excellent post!

Just some things to ponder. There really are some very nice, honest, clean cut, non gambling pool players out there and contrary to everyone's belief, not all players have a gambling problem. There are plenty that bet and bet smart... you only ever hear about the ones that don't bet smart and lost everything they have because those are the stories that people find interesting.

Timberly, I am just using the short quote but that entire post was one of the best I have read in months.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

paying performers

I hate to see someone glorified as a hero or a role model because of an ability in sports or a talent for singing or acting however I have to look at both sides of the coin when it comes to money.

The athletes and other performers are paid out of money that they generate. Should the recording studio, network, TV station, or team owner be the ones getting the lion's share of benefit for someone else's efforts or should the profits indeed trickle down to the ones that are primarily responsible for the profits to begin with?

I think that ticket prices are ridiculous for almost all events, however the open market usually proves me wrong so the money is there. The only question remaining is who should get it?

Hu

 

[sjm]

I'm not gonna say which pro player I was talking to, but let's just say it was in Central Florida. I am talking to a well known pro at a weekly tournament, and he makes the comment that "One of the problems with pro pool is the pro players are too accessible. It's not a big deal to be around pros, because they have to play the same tournaments as the non pros to make a living. Nobody pays to go see the pros play the big tourneys, because they see the pros in their home pool halls."

........Help me out here, people, lemme hear about some pros who are not scumbags. Gambling is fine, just as long as they are generally good people, and don't let the action control their lives.

Despite the somewhat negative tone of the initial post, I'll take a different slant on it, because I believe there is some truth in the contention that overaccessibility of top pro players keeps the sport of pool down.

It's common and popular to compare our sport to golf and tennis here on AZB. Does a golfer have a chance to compete in the US Open golf without first displaying exceptional skills by surviving a rigorous qualifying system? Can a tennis player compete in the USA Open tennis event without going through a very tough qualifying system? No, neither a tennis player nor a golfer can compete in tournaments against the superstars of those sports without first demonstrating skills that make them worthy of the opportunity.

Conversely, a pool player with or without superior skills can, by simply paying the entry fee, compete against the superstars of pool annually at Derby City, the Sands Reno and the US Open, three pretty prestigious events in our sport. I think if I were a top pro, this woul;d bother me. Why should players of all different skill levels have competitive access to me, I would wonder?

On a competitive level, therefore, I think the claim of excessive access is valid. Though I know how many amateur players love the opportunity to compete against the best, I believe that by permitting so much competitive access to the superstars of pool, torunament organizers have made the pro player a little less special, and have made their tournaments a little less professional.

In the IPT, we have the first competitive arrangement in recent memory that attempts to ensure that only the truly worthy will get to compete for the greatest tites in the sport. Yes, the selection of the original 150 was handled poorly, but the fact that only the Top 100 each year will retain their tour cards, with 50 tour cards made available to all comers on merit, will ensure that only exceptional players will get to play on the IPT. To me, the IPT structure is a step towards eliminating competitive overaccess to the top professionals. If the IPT succeeds, the elite will be competitively inaccessible to all but other elite players, and that's as it should be.

I agree with others in this thread that pros should remain accessible in a more general sense, but not, as I have noted, in a competitive sense ----- the right to compete against a Souquet, Reyes, Pagulayan, Hohmann or Archer is something that should be earned, not assumed.

Finally, you've obviously never met Ralf Souquet or Tony Robles, two of the most consummate professionals you'll find in any sport.

 

[alstl]

Help me out here, people, lemme hear about some pros who are not scumbags. Gambling is fine, just as long as they are generally good people, and don't let the action control their lives.

The only pro I've met in Mark Wilson. He seems like a good guy.

I suspect that pro pool players are a reflection of society as a whole.

 

[Koop]

Finally, you've obviously never met Ralf Souquet or Tony Robles, two of the most consummate professionals you'll find in any sport.

Completely forgot about Ralf but you are definitely correct, he is one of the nicest, most gracious guys you will ever meet.

 

[Cameron Smith]

It would be difficult to seperate the pros from the people outside of competition. Pool rooms are far more social than any other places to play sports. Tennis players have their own courts, golfers have their tee times, Hockey teams play away from the public etc. However when you play pool you are in a room full of people, and it is common to come over to a table, other then the one you just rented out, and start playing with someone else. I don't think you can do this bowling.

Unless pro players get private clubs where you have to have some special membership to enter, it would be difficult to completely seperate the fan from the pro.

Lets assume that these clubs are established, some (probably many) will want to play at other pool rooms as well. And there, the only thing that seperates people are the 4-10 feet between the tables.


P.S. Luc Salvas is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I went to congragulate him on a win, and ended up discussing pool and snooker for half an hour.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Conversely, a pool player with or without superior skills can, by simply paying the entry fee, compete against the superstars of pool annually at Derby City, the Sands Reno and the US Open, three pretty prestigious events in our sport. I think if I were a top pro, this woul;d bother me. Why should players of all different skill levels have competitive access to me, I would wonder?

On a competitive level, therefore, I think the claim of excessive access is valid. Though I know how many amateur players love the opportunity to compete against the best, I believe that by permitting so much competitive access to the superstars of pool, torunament organizers have made the pro player a little less special, and have made their tournaments a little less professional.

Let's be honest with ourselves. There is not much interest in pool out there. Only hardcore players play more than 2-3 hours a week, and what little (mens) pool there is on TV, is being single handedly pushed by Kevin Trudeau. Unless Trudeau is willing to just throw a few million a year at the IPT just because he likes pool, the IPT will die, and probably sooner than later. It is not making money for Kevin, and will likely continue to be a draw on his bank account.

That being said... I totally agree with you!! Let's get all that dead money out of the Sands Regency Open, the U.S. Open, and the DCC tourneys!! Those amateurs should not be able to be able to jump right up and play those pros without qualifying!

Let's see.. so I think next year.. the top prize in each of those event should be about.. what? $5000? $7000? Either that, or the pros see their entry fees go up to $1000 a tourney... Oh yeah.. they'll see their hotel bills go up too, because won't be all that dead money there to prompt hotels to give a decent rate.

Sheesh! The pros should be GLAD that amateurs come to these tournaments to play with them! The dead money in these tournaments is the only reason that these tournaments even go off, is my point.

If not for the small amount of people who enjoy having close contact with the pros, there would be no pro events, Kevin Trudeau and his money losing foray into billiards notwithstanding.

It is simple.. Today's (men) pros have a welfare mentality. They chose their profession because they love it, but believe they are somehow entitled to a very good living at it. Why? Just because?

I very very very much like flying kites... And I am so darned good at it, I am the best kite flyer in the state of Florida.... I know nobody is really interested in watching me fly a kite besides other kite fliers, but I still believe I am entitled to make $40,000 a year after I pay my entree fees and other expenses for all the kite flying contests I go to.

See my point?

Russ C.

 

[StormHotRod300]

What Sarah Rousey said is so true.

I've seen more guys like this all the time, not just in pool, but in sports as a whole.

They get to a certain level and then BAM instant SUPER EGO! As if some how they are just better than everyone else in life.

Now like Sarah said, not everyone is like this. When I bowled all the time and did Regional / National PBA tournaments, I met more guys who are down to earth than you can imagine.

And same goes with the Pro pool players, I think over all they are more access-able then most PRO sports players like Hockey, baseball, football, golf.

dave

 

[Fuji-whopper]

Not only that, but in this game (sport) there is not much press, so the things people say might not sit well with people. If you are in front of a camera or microphone all the time you might rethink your initial thoughts and say something more plausible.

Another thing that other sports have are coaches, PR people and many mentors. In this game little is known about top players and greats because of the lack of press. Poker is doing a great job of making people "known" by doing interviews and finding out more about the players other than how they play poker.

For example: I bet many didn't know Stefano Pelinga is a detective in Italy. How many people would hold him in higher regard or pay more attention to him knowing that bit of info?

Billiards is in it's infancy, there are growing pains tied to it and people will have a hard time adjusting. The next time we pick on someone about what they say, imagine yourself saying those words and thinking about what kind of response you might get. You will be surprised by this exercise.

 

[Blackjack]

.
It is simple.. Today's (men) pros have a welfare mentality. They chose their profession because they love it, but believe they are somehow entitled to a very good living at it. Why? Just because?

I have a lot of problems with this thread.

1st - you have a private conversation a person and you are unhappy with what he said. Instead of saying anything to this person's face you turn around and come on a forum and blast what the guy says when he is probably not going to be able to defend his comments. Sorry, but to me that is nutless. If you had a set you would have said what was on your mind at the time, but you didn't, did you? That says a lot about you.

2nd - I take offense to comment quoted above. There are many educated professional pool players that play the game and hold down full time jobs in the process. For years players have had to juggle two and 3 careers while the industry and the fans stand their looking at each like they are trying to decide who should pay for lunch. Welfare mentality? I call it survival. The pros will know what I am talking about. Then you try to turn this into a "what about the good guys" thread. IMO, we have you coming in this forum and bashing a pro by relaying your version of a story that may or may not be accurate. Then you had the audacity to refer to pros as scumbags and unpleasant people? Dance monkey, dance? Sorry, I have a problem with that (no matter who you're talking about), I think you are out of line, nutless, and you can bet that I'd say that right to your face if we ever crossed paths in Central Florida. How's that for pleasant?

Read this guy's initial post very carefully. This is why pros are reluctant to post in pool forums.

 

[Nostroke]

I have a lot of problems with this thread.

1st - you have a private conversation a person and you are unhappy with what he said. Instead of saying anything to this person's face you turn around and come on a forum and blast what the guy says when he is probably not going to be able to defend his comments. Sorry, but to me that is nutless. If you had a set you would have said what was on your mind at the time, but you didn't, did you? That says a lot about you.

2nd - I take offense to comment quoted above. There are many educated professional pool players that play the game and hold down full time jobs in the process. For years players have had to juggle two and 3 careers while the industry and the fans stand their looking at each like they are trying to decide who should pay for lunch. Welfare mentality? I call it survival. The pros will know what I am talking about. Then you try to turn this into a "what about the good guys" thread. IMO, we have you coming in this forum and bashing a pro by relaying your version of a story that may or may not be accurate. Then you had the audacity to refer to pros as scumbags and unpleasant people? Dance monkey, dance? Sorry, I have a problem with that (no matter who you're talking about), I think you are out of line, nutless, and you can bet that I'd say that right to your face if we ever crossed paths in Central Florida. How's that for pleasant?

Read this guy's initial post very carefully. This is why pros are reluctant to post in pool forums.

Right on-This guy is WAY out of line. There was nothing wrong with the pro's comments at all. I hope the pro reads this thread and it should be real easy for him to figure out just who thinks he is a dancing monkey. Unreal.

 

[Russ Chewning]

I have a lot of problems with this thread.

1st - you have a private conversation a person and you are unhappy with what he said. Instead of saying anything to this person's face you turn around and come on a forum and blast what the guy says when he is probably not going to be able to defend his comments. Sorry, but to me that is nutless. If you had a set you would have said what was on your mind at the time, but you didn't, did you? That says a lot about you.

2nd - I take offense to comment quoted above. There are many educated professional pool players that play the game and hold down full time jobs in the process. For years players have had to juggle two and 3 careers while the industry and the fans stand their looking at each like they are trying to decide who should pay for lunch. Welfare mentality? I call it survival. The pros will know what I am talking about. Then you try to turn this into a "what about the good guys" thread. IMO, we have you coming in this forum and bashing a pro by relaying your version of a story that may or may not be accurate. Then you had the audacity to refer to pros as scumbags and unpleasant people? Dance monkey, dance? Sorry, I have a problem with that (no matter who you're talking about), I think you are out of line, nutless, and you can bet that I'd say that right to your face if we ever crossed paths in Central Florida. How's that for pleasant?

Read this guy's initial post very carefully. This is why pros are reluctant to post in pool forums.

Pardon me if I did not make it clear. I meant to say SOME are scumbags.

Would you say a man is a scumbag if he beats on his wife/girlfriend? Regardless of whether he is a poolplayer or not? I would.

And if you MUST know, I didn't give my whole reason for why I did not confront this pro. If I did, you would know EXACTLY who I am talking about. I did not feel the need to out the guy like that.

Furthermore.. What can I say? I am a very judgemental person. If you ever dealt drugs in your life, to me.. you are a scumbag for life. Same with beating a woman. Scumbag for life. There's a whole lot of things that in my book that will label you a scumbag for life. Unfortunately... In the pool sport/game, players are known for a host of them.

Pool has a seedy reputation, and you and I both know it is for good reason. Anyone here know that not too many years back, when a casino hosted a pool tournament, had a large money added amount, and betting odds were put on the players, SOMEHOW... One of the players that had very high odds against winning somehow won the tournament, and SOMEHOW, there seemed to be a disproportionately huge amount of bets laid down on this player, and the casino lost it's *** royally on that attempt to support men's pool. THAT's the reason I can't stand to hear a pro whining about the state of men's pool.

Don't act like the players of today are saints.. Like I said, this wasn't too long ago, and a lot of the players the winner beat in that tourney are today's superstars.

Can you HONESTLY say that if Vegas starting laying betting odds on men's pro pool tournaments.. That the casinos would not lose their shirts on the deal?

Come ON, man....

Russ C.

 

[frankncali]

While I agree a bit on the accessibility issue it really was not an issue until the IPT came around. Int eh Camel tour days there was a set of Touring Pros but not since then. From then until now and probably from the beggining of time until now the "pro" players had no where to exclude themselves to.
The only place they could play was the regionals and the local scenes.
Hopefully now that will change.

I dont agree or even understand why you bring up Saulk or others.
Heck the guy that invented the "ChipClip" will affect billions of people before its all over with.
I like to keep a better feel for inventions and discoveries. Each has there own groups that they will affect and while some may have bigger end results(such as a cure for cancer) I cant fault a person for making a difference on a lower level(life-death Stale-Fresh).

There are people in world that are smarter than me and I am glad of that.
I try to appreciate everyone for their contribution. The guy paving the roads( as slow as he is) is making a living and contributing in a way he is able to.
I could not have solved the Poincare conjecture, a theorem about the nature of multidimensional space but Grigory Perelman apparantly just did.
Does he have to be worthy of being able to solve it. Not to me. He did what he did. He might be a vodka chugging lunatic but for his work in
Math I am fortunate or at least people who understand that crap are.

I will grant you that there are some bad apples in the IPT bunch and Pro
Level pool players in general but I cant think of any group that does not
have them. Priests used to have hold high asteem but now I just wonder what they are hiding.

One good thing is that sports usually has a way of taking out some of the bad apples as the sport gains acceptance. There are few TOs, Tysons,
Rae Carruths in the Pros and its a shame that the well behaved are not
cast into the spotlight more.

 

[vagabond]

Now get out of my face and go run some racks for my entertainment. DANCE, monkey, DANCE!"

Monkey can`t dance any more,lost it`s soul in first Baptist church in puntaguda.

 

[Snap9]

Agree and Disagree

Having been in pool now for nearly 20 years I have seen the full spectrum of pool players' egos. Some pro's in a nutshell could be as nice to anyone person as a life long friend. Others could care less who you are or even if you idolize them or their game.......

Yes, I do believe on average that some pros feel that they are better than any other pool player. Not in a demeaning way to one's character, but in a retrospect to the mental edge and their game. Most pros step up to the table and play believing that they are unable to be beat with anyone and this is their mental game. After some time their mental game turns into the mental outlook on life....

No, I do not believe all pros are egotistical. Point in case Sarah Rousey. Since you posted to this thread I feel obligated to state how nice of a person/pool player you were when I met you. Meeting you for the first time in Chattanooga at a tourney I was impressed with your game. After introducing myself we continued to have a pleasant conversation followed up with a great practice session on a 9-footer. All in all, I was very impressed with a great persona Sarah had. Their are tons of other top level pros that have a similiar outlook on life and the game of pool. So not all top pool players are as originally posted in the beginning thread.


Now as of being too accessible... This is a means to an end. Wow is about all I can begin to muster on too accessible. If you were not accessible how would you ever get to match up with a lower level player and win a sure-fire match for the cash. Some players have to move up and the only way to do that is to match up with better players. At some point the only better players are of pro-level. Hence now you have gambling. And normally for the pro-level player an easy score.\

Without the accessibility of top level players you would never have the desire for the television coverage or tournaments.


Here is a great question for you forum readers. Why are all the top pros scattered all across the world? Better to centralize this all across the US? This is because they do not all want to play at the same place or the same area. If so they would not be able to gamble for long and win. They live in different areas so that they can make easy scores picking on the lesser pool players. Some may say that they live where they live because they grew up there. That is BS. They live there because they can make easy scores. Most pro-level players are nomads and never live in the same area for too long.


Wow, I rambled on long enough........

 

[Gerry]

As far as the whole "accessibility" thing, give me a break! I say, treat ANYONE you meet as an equal. Be it the Pope, the Mayor, or the guy next door. I do admire , and look up to many people, but bow down, and grovel for a chance to breath their air?....uh, no.

I agree with the point about dead money. Any of you ever play in a small local tourney and easily win it?....I have a few times, and I was greatful for, and looked up to the guys that didn't have a chance yet still threw their hat in the ring. If I want to play in the DCC without a realistic chance to win, but just for the experience, the Pros should thank me for my money, not look down their nose at me for "getting in the way"!

As far as putting people up on a pedistal = silly! especially when those people take themselves too seriously. Look, we all have "our thing" that we do better than anyone else. We all have one thing we love to do, but can't do it better than some perceived "Pro", and up they go on the pedistal along with the ego, sometimes, then we see the "real" personality. If more Pros were like Efren.....I bet we all would enjoy it more.

Gerry

 

[Blackjack]

Pardon me if I did not make it clear. I meant to say SOME are scumbags.

My point is that the coments that you made were offensive to any professional pool player regardless of whether they meet your requirements to be a "scumbag".

Would you say a man is a scumbag if he beats on his wife/girlfriend? Regardless of whether he is a poolplayer or not? I would.

No I wouldn't, and I was a police officer for many years.

And if you MUST know, I didn't give my whole reason for why I did not confront this pro. If I did, you would know EXACTLY who I am talking about. I did not feel the need to out the guy like that.

Yet you felt the need to cut him up in this thread? I don't care who you are talking about, your comments about the player that went to prison were WAY out of line. You don't even know that player, do you?

Furthermore.. What can I say? I am a very judgemental person. If you ever dealt drugs in your life, to me.. you are a scumbag for life. Same with beating a woman. Scumbag for life. There's a whole lot of things that in my book that will label you a scumbag for life. Unfortunately... In the pool sport/game, players are known for a host of them.

Scumbag for life? I would say that it is you that has had the unpleasant experiences. People go through phases in their lives where they do stupid things. It is from growing out of these experiences that we become who we are. There are several members of this forum that have been to prison, been through alcoholism, drug addiction, abusive relationships, etc. I fit into more than one of those categories. Am I the same person that I was 20 years ago or 10 years ago? No. You will be able to say the same thing in 10-20 years.

Pool has a seedy reputation, and you and I both know it is for good reason. Anyone here know that not too many years back, when a casino hosted a pool tournament, had a large money added amount, and betting odds were put on the players, SOMEHOW... One of the players that had very high odds against winning somehow won the tournament, and SOMEHOW, there seemed to be a disproportionately huge amount of bets laid down on this player, and the casino lost it's *** royally on that attempt to support men's pool. THAT's the reason I can't stand to hear a pro whining about the state of men's pool.

That was the initial Challenge of Champions event. The player that you are talking about is now well into his 70's and he would probably react worse than I did to what you have said here. BTW... He's not a scumbag and I dare you to call him one to his face - lol.

Don't act like the players of today are saints.. Like I said, this wasn't too long ago, and a lot of the players the winner beat in that tourney are today's superstars.

None of us aren't saints, but then again, none of us are monkeys either.

Can you HONESTLY say that if Vegas starting laying betting odds on men's pro pool tournaments.. That the casinos would not lose their shirts on the deal?

Come ON, man....

Russ C.

I don't care about any casinos. I took offense to the disrespectful comments in your post that generalized all "male" professional players. I also called you on the fact that you posted something here that you and I both know that you would not repeat in the presence of any professional player, regardless of who it was. Due to your geographical location, it would appear that this incident probably occurred quite some time ago (more than a month or two ago). There are some players that have been through life and legal difficulties over the years and they have either completely turned their lives around, or they are currently in the process. Being judgmental is one thing, but being narrowminded, uninformed, and nutless is something completely different. This thread is just a cheap shot at the player you are referring to and nothing more.