A System vs Hitting a lot of balls

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I don’t think that many players ranked “B” and up are going to pocket balls better with any aiming system. I got caught up in the aiming systems for a few months and at first I did pocket balls a little better, but as I stopped doing the drills that came with the systems I slid right back again. My point is if you do cut-shot drills on aiming everyday and have a straight repeatable stroke and a good pre-shot routine…you’re going to pocket balls. Most pros will tell you when asked what the best way to pocket balls at a high percentage is and most will tell you to hit a lot of balls. We just find it hard to accept this answer. I have, but most don’t have 8 hours a day to hit balls so they look for the quick fix with a system. Johnnyt
 
That's a great question Johnny. I'd like to see somebody poll the pros at the U S Open or Derby City and ask them which is more important, running balls or having a system.
 
I agree but then there is the age old problem... I was doing my pre shot and not working on any specific shot I just played the ghost a lot for like a good half a year and I was pocketing balls great but then I stopped pocketing them and tried to fix the problem which just gave me more problems until I eventually just stopped trying to do all these crazy fixes and went back to just doing my pre shot and putting a clean stroke on every ball and I fixed the problem now I can't wait till I do something wrong again and repeat everything I just said.... I hate this game so much sometimes haha :P

but I like just running balls and not worrying about systems and drills so I'm with you there JT.
 
If you know where the cueball is going after collision, you know where the object ball is going.
My 2 cents.

Well Said Joey,

Usually when my shape is good the balls are going in the hole.

I think aiming systems can be a very 1 dimensional look at the game. Learn how to play shape, that will get you further in the long run imo.

If you are thinking about making or missing the ball when down on the shot you're doing it wrong.

Dud
 
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Well Said Joey,

Usually when my shape is good the balls are going in the hole.

I think aiming systems can be a very 1 dimensional look at the game. Learn how to play shape, that will get you further in the long run imo.

If you are thinking about making or missing the ball when down on the shot you're doing it wrong.

Dud

When you learn not to separate the two, I think is the key.
My theory is, often times the pros miss the money ball b/c they are just thinking of making that ball instead of controlling whitey as well.
 
I don’t think that many players ranked “B” and up are going to pocket balls better with any aiming system. I got caught up in the aiming systems for a few months and at first I did pocket balls a little better, but as I stopped doing the drills that came with the systems I slid right back again. My point is if you do cut-shot drills on aiming everyday and have a straight repeatable stroke and a good pre-shot routine…you’re going to pocket balls. Most pros will tell you when asked what the best way to pocket balls at a high percentage is and most will tell you to hit a lot of balls. We just find it hard to accept this answer. I have, but most don’t have 8 hours a day to hit balls so they look for the quick fix with a system. Johnnyt

I think all players including pro's use a system. They might not know it but what they call "feel or natural" is a system.

I could hit the mystical million balls and I might figure something out and I might improve, but if I hit a million balls with a system (whichever one works best for me) I would have to improve.

With so many ideas on how to make a cue ball strike a object ball you get confused on what to use.

I think pool aiming system information is as confusing as golf swing information.

The best golf tip I read was there's only one result when you hit a golf ball, but golf magazines make money describing their experiences.
 
The point about players ranked "B and up" is a good one. Because that may be where many hit a wall. The lesser players KNOW where they can improve. They can see specific holes in their game.

The B players may not really know what's holding them back from A or higher. So aiming systems appeal because we all miss balls so that's a known hole in everyone's game. The more important hole (the kind that's patched with the hard-to-accept answer) gets overlooked.
 
I'm sure I'll get ripped to shreds for this, but, IMHO, aiming/pocketing balls is the easiest part of this game, and I honestly don't understand all of the attention given to aiming systems. I have watched many players progress over the years, and invariably it seems that pocketing balls is the first thing they become proficient at. Many times I have seen players who were very good at pocketing balls, but had little skill in the other aspects of the game. Skills such as speed control, cueball control, compensation for spin, strategy, shot selection, and mental acuity under pressure (to name just a few), are the ones that seem to take much more time and effort to develop.

Since no system is going to give a player the feel required to apply the correct spin/speed ratio for masse shot, or even a stop shot for that matter, I think it's safe to say that "hitting a million balls" will always be a requirement for achieving a high level of play. Hitting a million balls is the prescription for developing the fine muscle memory that allows good players to judge spin and speed, and it is probably the way most good players are going to get the feel for whether a carom should be struck softly with follow or hard with draw, or how much to compensate for maximum low-right spin on a cross-side bank, or how much elevation and spin they need to masse around 1/2" of an intervening ball, or how much spin they need to tuck their cueball behind that little cluster for a lockup safe. These are things top players do amazingly well, and much of their knowledge about these shots is in muscle memory developed through... hitting a million balls.

So I would actually say that beginning players would benefit less from aiming systems than advanced players. Most of the A and above players I know and have spoken to on the subject of aiming have told stories similar to mine. They quickly became proficient at pocketing balls, then slowly became proficient at the other parts of the game. As they played smarter pool and developed more feel, their strategy, defense, speed, and cueball control improved, but their shotmaking began to fall off a bit. At that point (already a B or A player), they sought out an aiming system and began to use it for tough shots or when under pressure.

I know there are a lot of good aiming systems out there, and I wouldn't ever tell someone to not research or use them. My only concern is that some beginning/novice players will read all the hype about aiming systems and perhaps come to believe that there is some "silver bullet" system out there that will preclude them from having to hit a million balls. It's just not the case. They may become proficient at pocketing balls in a short amount of time, but if they don't also put in the long hours of hitting balls, they will lag behind the player who doesn't use a system but does put in the hours when it comes to the more difficult skills.

The only system I ever show beginning players is the ghost ball system. I think a purely geometric system is a good place to start, because there's no masking or automatic compensation for anything, and they know if they miss the ball by 4 inches, it was in their stroke and not because they didn't pivot properly or line up the correct edge with the correct center, etc. Not to bash CTE; it obviously works for those who use it. It just seems to me (based on what I have read about it) to be an overly complex solution to what I perceive as being the simplest problem in the game... aiming.

That being said, I would love to sit down with someone who knows CTE and have them show me how to use it. The stuff I have read on here just left me saying "huh?". I'm pretty dense I guess. :sorry:

Aaron
 
We all know that if you have pin-point position you will very rarely have a hard shot. Most of the pros play safe on that shot they are left with or played poor position on. If they have the option of a good safe they are taking that route almost always. They will duck almost 100% of the time if they can see there is no reward (getting on next ball good) even if they make a very missable shot. Of course if there are only one or two balls left on the table they probably will have to go for it, and they (the top tier pros) will make loooong 80 degree cut-shot a lot more than miss them. It's why there pros. Good position=easy shots, easy shots=easy position on the next ball most of the time. You have to think at least 3 balls ahead for the angles. Johnnyt
 
I don’t think that many players ranked “B” and up are going to pocket balls better with any aiming system. I got caught up in the aiming systems for a few months and at first I did pocket balls a little better, but as I stopped doing the drills that came with the systems I slid right back again. My point is if you do cut-shot drills on aiming everyday and have a straight repeatable stroke and a good pre-shot routine…you’re going to pocket balls. Most pros will tell you when asked what the best way to pocket balls at a high percentage is and most will tell you to hit a lot of balls. We just find it hard to accept this answer. I have, but most don’t have 8 hours a day to hit balls so they look for the quick fix with a system. Johnnyt

If I'm playing really good and in stroke, I don't need a system. If I'm struggling or have a big pressure shot or just have a tough shot, I prefer to have a system to fall back on. I don't relying on feel or just guessing if I don't feel really good about the shot. I play a lot of systems, but a system is practically worthless if you don't have a good feel for the shot. Also, if you don't practice, system or no system, you're not going to shoot as well.
 
Knowledge is power, either way you look at it.

Beginners miss shots and they learn how to compensate for the differing conditions on the table. (Or they don't and never improve) Their "system" incorporates adjustments for english, etc. just like the written down systems do.

People need to realize that everything is a system and without profound knowledge of what you are doing, you will never be that good at pool.

Written down systems are just roadmaps to the exact same destination. You either find your own way, get lost forever, or use a map. In the end, you still need to put in the work to get there.
 
I'm sure I'll get ripped to shreds for this, but, IMHO, aiming/pocketing balls is the easiest part of this game, and I honestly don't understand all of the attention given to aiming systems. I have watched many players progress over the years, and invariably it seems that pocketing balls is the first thing they become proficient at. Many times I have seen players who were very good at pocketing balls, but had little skill in the other aspects of the game. Skills such as speed control, cueball control, compensation for spin, strategy, shot selection, and mental acuity under pressure (to name just a few), are the ones that seem to take much more time and effort to develop.

Since no system is going to give a player the feel required to apply the correct spin/speed ratio for masse shot, or even a stop shot for that matter, I think it's safe to say that "hitting a million balls" will always be a requirement for achieving a high level of play. Hitting a million balls is the prescription for developing the fine muscle memory that allows good players to judge spin and speed, and it is probably the way most good players are going to get the feel for whether a carom should be struck softly with follow or hard with draw, or how much to compensate for maximum low-right spin on a cross-side bank, or how much elevation and spin they need to masse around 1/2" of an intervening ball, or how much spin they need to tuck their cueball behind that little cluster for a lockup safe. These are things top players do amazingly well, and much of their knowledge about these shots is in muscle memory developed through... hitting a million balls.

So I would actually say that beginning players would benefit less from aiming systems than advanced players. Most of the A and above players I know and have spoken to on the subject of aiming have told stories similar to mine. They quickly became proficient at pocketing balls, then slowly became proficient at the other parts of the game. As they played smarter pool and developed more feel, their strategy, defense, speed, and cueball control improved, but their shotmaking began to fall off a bit. At that point (already a B or A player), they sought out an aiming system and began to use it for tough shots or when under pressure.

I know there are a lot of good aiming systems out there, and I wouldn't ever tell someone to not research or use them. My only concern is that some beginning/novice players will read all the hype about aiming systems and perhaps come to believe that there is some "silver bullet" system out there that will preclude them from having to hit a million balls. It's just not the case. They may become proficient at pocketing balls in a short amount of time, but if they don't also put in the long hours of hitting balls, they will lag behind the player who doesn't use a system but does put in the hours when it comes to the more difficult skills.

The only system I ever show beginning players is the ghost ball system. I think a purely geometric system is a good place to start, because there's no masking or automatic compensation for anything, and they know if they miss the ball by 4 inches, it was in their stroke and not because they didn't pivot properly or line up the correct edge with the correct center, etc. Not to bash CTE; it obviously works for those who use it. It just seems to me (based on what I have read about it) to be an overly complex solution to what I perceive as being the simplest problem in the game... aiming.

That being said, I would love to sit down with someone who knows CTE and have them show me how to use it. The stuff I have read on here just left me saying "huh?". I'm pretty dense I guess. :sorry:

Aaron

Anybody who can work acuity into a post gets no argument from me.
 
"Knowledge is power, either way you look at it."

Knowledge is only power when it's applied. The game of pool requires execution..so you can have all the knowledge in the world but if can't shoot a ball straight...it's not going to help you.
 
I'm sure I'll get ripped to shreds for this, but, IMHO, aiming/pocketing balls is the easiest part of this game, and I honestly don't understand all of the attention given to aiming systems. I have watched many players progress over the years, and invariably it seems that pocketing balls is the first thing they become proficient at. Many times I have seen players who were very good at pocketing balls, but had little skill in the other aspects of the game. Skills such as speed control, cueball control, compensation for spin, strategy, shot selection, and mental acuity under pressure (to name just a few), are the ones that seem to take much more time and effort to develop.

I totally agree with this.
 
Reference Points in Pool vs System

Johnnyt,
In reply to your opening post I agree with a lot of what you said we forget to do our due diligence and the main issues are sometimes ignored.

I just like you and everyone else have hit about a million balls learning to do what we do.

I was at a tournament about a year ago and I was inquiring of a great player how he did some of the things he did and he showed me something in banking and this is what he said.

He said: That reference point is really something powerful in banking. He had no advice on how to proceed with it. Being a tad hard headed I couldnt make any immediate sense of it and I went back to doing what I was doing but remembered it well. Somewhere in the back of my mind it kept nagging at me and I came back to it and then I figured out what to do with it to learn to apply a feel that I had for the bank shots. In the stretch of a month or two my passover banking has surpassed anything I ever thought Id learn to attain based on this reference point.

My point is in its way that is a system of sorts. Its a system to make you learn how to do something but its not an all inclusive do it for you system. I dont believe that exists anyway. Their are too many variables in the game for any system to produce magical results in aiming its execution and execution with English that you have to be able to pull off so you learn how to express the great stroke you have. If it doesnt include that no system is going to work well. A few months back I saw something while shooting and again paid little attention to it. Then I messed with it some and realized how powerful it was and what it was and it has become a reference point for me and when you realize how to use it and not expect it to spit out canned shot purity then you are on to something extremely powerful for your game. With shot making a little easier all of a sudden getting position becomes the game and is the difference between you and a lot more people. Dont give up on having a half way mark. Your eyes recieve more information that you can possibly use in directed way. Ive found if I get some concentrated direction that what I can see makes so much better sense. Much more than I ever thought it would.

Reference points are pretty powerful in pool. When you give yourself one you can learn to anything you want to in reference to it. If all that reference point does for you is to make you understand how the shot needs to be hit in a regular ghost ball fashion then that is all it is supposed to do. Ghost ball is pretty simply explained and we all know what that is but: It how you arrive at placement that makes up the difference and that what I believe. I believe regular skills, potting shots moving the ball learning the patterns to get out and putting in the time are the keys to the game. If you realize how to better pot the balls youve got more time for the rest of the game. Sorry for the long post just dont give up searching for a way to better understand how to place the ghost. Maybe you might shave a few off that million balls but automatic shot making robotics isnt going to work, youve worked your way through that no one knows better than you.

aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com :thumbup:

I can give you a reference point and show a few natural ways to consider things. Lets not call it a system--its a method or a reference point for your consideration. Its also very uncomplicated very. Pool is simple, make more balls and get better shape.

336robin
 
From Tao Of Sports by Bob Mitchell
 

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