ABP boycotts Berhman's event

The product of pool on its pro level has taken a dramatic turn with superb world play. Once the sport is able to ''hook'' the public (which comes from elevating our players level of play even more) and create income from spectator interest, new stars will be born and rightfully so. From this point on the character of those in the limelight are ''key''. Is Souquet going to join this group?
 
I have heard a lot of people talking about CW and his aggressive
ultimatums, Now I am hearing a MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY about
Berman. Barry may revoke their past champion entry's.....sounds about right. Bar them all together...hmmmm really. Everyone on this forum knows
there has been shady mess about payouts the last few years.
You can not do business like that in the real world ,Why does it seem to be okay in Barrys world. Because the ones throwing rocks at the boycott
are not the ones leaving unpaid. If this is how it is going to be then he should advertise it that way. Why not? If everyone on that list stuck to their guns, Then Barry would fly straight or not at all. I cant believe some
think these tactics are ok
 
peteypooldude said:
I have heard a lot of people talking about CW and his aggressive
ultimatums, Now I am hearing a MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY about
Berman. Barry may revoke their past champion entry's.....sounds about right. Bar them all together...hmmmm really. Everyone on this forum knows
there has been shady mess about payouts the last few years.
You can not do business like that in the real world ,Why does it seem to be okay in Barrys world. Because the ones throwing rocks at the boycott
are not the ones leaving unpaid. If this is how it is going to be then he should advertise it that way. Why not? If everyone on that list stuck to their guns, Then Barry would fly straight or not at all. I cant believe some
think these tactics are ok
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I dont think slow pay is ok at all. I do think that some consideration should be given to a guy that has paid the players longer than anyone else in this country. I also think jumping straight to a boycott with this much time before the event makes little sense.

If the real agenda is to get Barry to pay on time there are better ways of going about it IMO. I'm on the players side here and painting themselves in an all or nothing corner to me isn't what is going to benefit them in the long run. While it feels good to stand up and say "We're not going to take it anymore" they have just played the only card in their hand very early in the game.

Look at it this way. What is the end goal? To get Barry to pay on time. They didnt even make their case as an organization in public before dropping the hammer. They tried last year and folded which is when they should of boycotted. Then the same guys went and played in the Masters. Slow pay again and they release a PR saying basically "It's ok." Now they don't even say "We demand XYZ or we will be forced to not attend the US Open in 2011" They just drop the bomb. Evidently without telling some of the guys they list as members.

If you are a promoter looking on from the outside this type of thing makes you wonder what the hell are they gonna pull on me ? Using the boycott hammer has NEVER worked in the past. It kills events and drives promoters away. Now if that is the goal in order for the ABP to make space for their own thing then it makes sense. Barring that it is strategic misstep IMO.

I see three basic possible outcomes of this type of "negotiation" if you want to call it that:

1.) They may get some of the points they are demanding.

2.) The group fractures and falls apart.

3.) The promoters tell them to pound sand and just stop doing pro events or refuse to deal with them. In which case see number 2 after members lose their means of making money.

The only way playing hardball makes sense is if they have an alternate source of events in mind such as their own tour. I believe the promoters in the game today have seen what happens when things like this start and they are just not going to fool with it again. I genuinely hope the guys in on this have thought all this through. Once things get into that "Mine is bigger than yours" stage it rarely works out for anyone involved.
 
The ABP should stick to their guns here, until a clearly defined, agreeable solution is in place. He doesn't owe me money and all I have to go on are the story's of players being owed money or being paid very late.

But I think we all know that what has been relayed to the players in various statements and open letters has not always happened in the past. If you state players will be paid in cash before they leave, that is exactly what should happen! IMHO though that would be a ridiculous business decision anywhere, except apparently some of the Pool World. Why not just let it be known that you will get a check on the day, if you need extra time to get funds to the right place, why not state, it will be post dated by one week?

Promoters should do what they say they are going to do, it's about managing expectations!
 
Quote

(If the real agenda is to get Barry to pay on time there are better ways of going about it IMO. I'm on the players side here and painting themselves in an all or nothing corner to me isn't what is going to benefit them in the long run. While it feels good to stand up and say "We're not going to take it anymore" they have just played the only card in their hand very early in the game.


Look at it this way. What is the end goal? To get Barry to pay on time. They didnt even make their case as an organization in public before dropping the hammer. They tried last year and folded which is when they should of boycotted. Then the same guys went and played in the Masters. Slow pay again and they release a PR saying basically "It's ok." Now they don't even say "We demand XYZ or we will be forced to not attend the US Open in 2011" They just drop the bomb. Evidently without telling some of the guys they list as members. )End Quote


I too think when they folded last year instead of boycotting was a major fumble.
Unlike some of the others,I don't want to see the players start their own tour. They just don't have the business sense to do so or at least not in the past.I know you do your own thing,but the players should hire someone of your foresight to advise or warn them about fumbling the ball at crucial times. Timing is everything IMO
 
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Like Justin mentioned before, it seems like Barry's eyes are too big for his wallet. It seems that he wants a bigger and better show than he can afford. There is a solution that will work, but won't be popular with either side.

If Barry cannot afford the current prize structure, there obviously has to be a new structure. Instead of paying past champions entry, give them 50% off. I know it's only probably $5,000 back but every little bit helps. The other, and really, the main thing he can do is to scale back the prize money. Reduce the payouts by 25-40%. The players would still come. This reduction would make a first place finish worth $25-30k.

I know the players want as big of a prize as possible and Barry wants as big of an event as possible. Obviously the current model is failing for both parties (although it seems more for the players). Barry has to plan within his means. Cutting the prize fund by 40% probably would not be popular, but at least it would make it viable.

The players can't have it both ways. It has been shown Barry cannot afford the current structure. He should get with the ABP and let them decide. You can have the current structure and be paid in installments as I can get the money, or I will cut the fund 40% and you will get paid on the spot. At least that way you're leaving the decision to the "organization" so they can feel like they accomplished something.

-Brandon
 
bboxgrinder said:
I wouldn't trust anything Archer or Putnam have a hand in after seeing their sneaky tactics of "cut you in on a money match" caught on tape at the Bad Blood event.
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jrackman said:
didn't hear about this, but if true, not good for pro pool.
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It isn't true. Archer was talking to Putnam about a sponsorhip deal that Archer was getting. Archer stated that he should get paid pretty well for the venture and that he would cut Putnam in on it, meaning that he would share some of his sponsorship money with Putnam. He told Putnam not to tell anyone which is to say it is Archer's business to do what he wants with the money & he didn't want others knowing his business. Of course bboxgrinder took it to mean something underhanded and has spread incorrect info about it every chance he gets. He doesn't like Archer or Putnam and there is nothing wrong with that. Personally, I'm not a big fan of either though I respect one more than the other. Either way, there is no reason to tell the tale incorrectly, and repeatedly just because you don't like them and want others to dislike them also.

Mark Griffin said:
Just an FYI ( straight from the horses's mouth) - mark griffin did not help write any that mission statement. I did have a couple of discussions with some of the ABP and told them there is a better way than threats and boycotts.

Mark Griffin
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I was reading the innuendos between the lines (and stated as much) so I was apt to be wrong. I also knew for a fact that you have offered advice in the past (I've personally heard you) so what I thought I was understanding through innuendos could have been true. Thank you for the clarification.
 
brandoncook26 said:
Like Justin mentioned before, it seems like Barry's eyes are too big for his wallet. It seems that he wants a bigger and better show than he can afford. There is a solution that will work, but won't be popular with either side.

If Barry cannot afford the current prize structure, there obviously has to be a new structure. Instead of paying past champions entry, give them 50% off. I know it's only probably $5,000 back but every little bit helps. The other, and really, the main thing he can do is to scale back the prize money. Reduce the payouts by 25-40%. The players would still come. This reduction would make a first place finish worth $25-30k.

I know the players want as big of a prize as possible and Barry wants as big of an event as possible. Obviously the current model is failing for both parties (although it seems more for the players). Barry has to plan within his means. Cutting the prize fund by 40% probably would not be popular, but at least it would make it viable.

The players can't have it both ways. It has been shown Barry cannot afford the current structure. He should get with the ABP and let them decide. You can have the current structure and be paid in installments as I can get the money, or I will cut the fund 40% and you will get paid on the spot. At least that way you're leaving the decision to the "organization" so they can feel like they accomplished something.

-Brandon
Click to expand...

+1 Solid ideas all around there.
 
JCIN said:
I think people just don't get it....NO ONE IS TAKING OVER THE OPEN IF BARRY STOPS. Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, Allen Hopkins or Mike Zuglan are not waiting in the wings to step in and take over if Barry throws in the towel. The only guy who would try to run a competing event at the same time as the open is Charlie Williams. And when you have a promoter as a leader of of a players organization it has a real funny smell of conflict of interest.

If and when the Open does go away someone might buy the name and do a 96 player field with 20k added but thats about it. After talking to a few players the feeling I get from comments I heard such as "That's nonsense" and "Those guys didnt tell me about any boycott" leads me to believe this decision is likely to fracture this group before it ever gets off the ground.

I don't see Barry going away. He'll fire back and be on the phones to players calling in markers and reminding people who has been paying them for 30+ years and probably half or more of those guys on the list will end up playing. I suspect that the ones who do follow through with the boycott will get more than they bargained for such as a revocation of paid entries for former champions or maybe even Barry barring any active boycotters from future events. The hammer swings both ways.

Also Johnny and Charlie are not the universally loved charismatic leaders that small movements like this traditionally need to hold a group together. Everyone has seen this movie before and more than a few will go along for the ride until it costs them something personally. The only way this particular group can survive and flourish is to have their own complete tour. They should just take 16 guys, call it a tour, buy a truck and four tables and eat what they kill. But that is a hell of a lot more work than just showing up and playing.
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Good post!!
 
Jay mentioned, and I certainly agree, it would be important to know if all payouts for last years Open were paid in full, and, assuming they were, how long did it take.

It may be true that Mr. Behrman has an affinity for being grandiose. I don't think that that is neccessarily a bad trait for a promoter. I will say, however, that coming through on the other end with timely payouts is of paramount importance. Well, we're seeing the fallout for that not having been done, aren't we?

Is it possible to promote the event with a smaller guaranteed prize fund and post up that amount? That, along with a promise of added funds that don't have to be posted which are based on a percentage of the gate, event sponsorship, and vendors.

I have little doubt in my mind that pretty much most, if not all of the players on the boycott list, would play the US Open for a chance at this important title with a guaranteed lesser purse and a promise of more, depending on the aforementioned triad of gate, sponsors and vendors.

For a US Open that has been running for 30 consecutive years, it amazes me that there is no BIG sponsors.

Where's Exxon/Mobil who I noticed were sponsors of the World 9 ball Championship in Qatar? Why aren't they being pressed?

Best,
Brian kc
 
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I certainly understand their complaints about slow pay. When I worked construction I was constantly slow paid. By the time I finally got paid most of the check covered late fees on my bills. I certainly understand Barry's side as well. He's been putting on a large tournament for a long time and he isn't getting rich doing it.

I agree with the ABP's grievances, but I think their collective energy could be used much better. I also think that Barry slow paying the players is acceptable in any way, but I also applaud him putting on the US Open which I am sure is a monster undertaking.

My opinion is that instead of boycotting an independent event the ABP should be using their energy to create connections to find sponsors for a real pro tour.
 
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gunzby said:
I certainly understand their complaints about slow pay. When I worked construction I was constantly slow paid. By the time I finally got paid most of the check covered late fees on my bills. I certainly understand Barry's side as well. He's been putting on a large tournament for a long time and he isn't getting rich doing it.

I agree with the ABP's grievances, but I think their collective energy could be used much better. I also think that Barry slow paying the players is acceptable in any way, but I also applaud him putting on the US Open which I am sure is a monster undertaking.

My opinion is that instead of boycotting an independent event the ABP should be using their energy to create connections to find sponsors for a real pro tour.
Click to expand...

Best post of this thread! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

BTW, I was working on a job recently where the speaker said that it was customary to do a tap-tap-tap before every session. I couldn't help but laugh. They were referring to tapping a gavel three times as an expression of a certain amount of humility on behalf of their founders.
 
Memories...

I hear everyone saying how crazy it is that the players themselves are taking the game's welfare and their means of employment into their own hands and that they will never succeed with their plans, but does anyone remember the last time an outsider took the helm....I've got one name for ya and I'll leave it at that...

Don Mackey

Gooooo ABP, get yours boys and don't back down! You are "THE PRODUCT" that everyone else in the business is trying to use for their own profit but with disregard for your welfare. I and many others are truly hoping for your success!
 
JCIN...Tap, tap, tap!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JCIN said:
I dont think slow pay is ok at all. I do think that some consideration should be given to a guy that has paid the players longer than anyone else in this country. I also think jumping straight to a boycott with this much time before the event makes little sense.

If the real agenda is to get Barry to pay on time there are better ways of going about it IMO. I'm on the players side here and painting themselves in an all or nothing corner to me isn't what is going to benefit them in the long run. While it feels good to stand up and say "We're not going to take it anymore" they have just played the only card in their hand very early in the game.

Look at it this way. What is the end goal? To get Barry to pay on time. They didnt even make their case as an organization in public before dropping the hammer. They tried last year and folded which is when they should of boycotted. Then the same guys went and played in the Masters. Slow pay again and they release a PR saying basically "It's ok." Now they don't even say "We demand XYZ or we will be forced to not attend the US Open in 2011" They just drop the bomb. Evidently without telling some of the guys they list as members.

If you are a promoter looking on from the outside this type of thing makes you wonder what the hell are they gonna pull on me ? Using the boycott hammer has NEVER worked in the past. It kills events and drives promoters away. Now if that is the goal in order for the ABP to make space for their own thing then it makes sense. Barring that it is strategic misstep IMO.

I see three basic possible outcomes of this type of "negotiation" if you want to call it that:

1.) They may get some of the points they are demanding.

2.) The group fractures and falls apart.

3.) The promoters tell them to pound sand and just stop doing pro events or refuse to deal with them. In which case see number 2 after members lose their means of making money.

The only way playing hardball makes sense is if they have an alternate source of events in mind such as their own tour. I believe the promoters in the game today have seen what happens when things like this start and they are just not going to fool with it again. I genuinely hope the guys in on this have thought all this through. Once things get into that "Mine is bigger than yours" stage it rarely works out for anyone involved.
Click to expand...
 
JAM said:
Best post of this thread! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

BTW, I was working on a job recently where the speaker said that it was customary to do a tap-tap-tap before every session. I couldn't help but laugh. They were referring to tapping a gavel three times as an expression of a certain amount of humility on behalf of their founders.
Click to expand...

*takes a bow*

Never been honored with a best post of a thread.

I honestly believe that a successful tour can be formed, but it really is up to the players and that is going to be tough. It will take a group of selfless people, working hard and long with little reward or money for it for a couple years to get it running.........uummmm kind of like running a major tournament ;)
 
I wonder how many pros will never get a sponsorship without the US Open. Think of John Schmidt...

If all of the players were paid within one month of the Open or less, I don't see it as a big deal. The players should pretend they went two and out instead of spending the money before they have it.
 
Sam Waltz said:
Gooooo ABP, get yours boys and don't back down! You are "THE PRODUCT" that everyone else in the business is trying to use for their own profit but with disregard for your welfare.
Click to expand...

If there is so much profit in pro tournaments how come there are so many 1st annuals that are never heard from again?

If the product is so profitable why don't the players just do it all themselves? I dont pay graphic artists or video editors. I learned to do it myself so I can keep that money. My stuff isnt perfect but it allows me to function. ABP would just have to do basically the same thing only with creating and promoting events. Then outside promoters if they wanted to have pro players would have to meet or beat what they make on their own.

Also most events I have seen the players, especially the top guys get treated pretty damn good. People do what they can to help them out. Its not like they are kept in a basement and trotted out to perform then thrown back in chains. The people putting these events on, for the most part, really like pro pool and the players. The problem almost always is people over reach trying to do too much.
 
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