ABP may be fixing games and tournaments

[hunger strike]

My opinion probably won't change yours, but....

Wouldn't the way to prevent this chopping up be to get into the top 4 yourself? If you are not in the top 4 then what do you care what the top 4 do with their money..... they were going to get the top 4 money between them anyway. Now, if the other pros in the tourneys decided to pressure promoters to make the tournament money less top-heavy, then you probably wouldn't complain. But pros want to win, pros believe they will win, so they want that money at the top. And if they even get close to winning then they will get the prize commensurate with their performance. And let me add something else. If you want to make slurs against our sport's professionals, at least give them the respect of spelling their names correctly. I do not know who Rempy is, maybe he plays league. But Rempe, we all know him ~ and if he wants to split his first place money with Sigel or Varner, I am glad he is free to do it. Professional pool players have always had it hard making a living. Bennie Allen's grandson told me that the other pros were always staying at each other's homes and that Mosconi and others were frequently upstairs at Bennie's playing while guests in his home. Pros getting along- not a conspiracy. Now go get your Foghat tickets so that the world will make sense to you. Free Ride!!!!

 

[peteypooldude]

I'm not even gonna bother reading all the pages about how stupid this thread is, just going to make sure you know I'm on board. This concept is so horribly stupid it takes nearly zero brain cells to figure out you know nothing about pool, logic or life for that matter. Your post makes zero sense and it's clear you're just trying to start shit. Very "pocketpoint" of you. Please stop posting, you sound like an idiot. Hopefully every reply is like mine and there is no arguing with you, because you are clearly not smart enough to be reasoning with.

I wish the Mods would pull his thread.The title should be enough

 

[Black-Balled]

Perhaps the ABP was setup to steal from the tournaments and the amateur players.

They setup this organization and instead of addressing what they would do for the game of pool, the first thing they talk about is money and how they should get paid.

The organization's members joins a particular tournament, if seeded, eventually the top guys would meet each other in the later rounds and chop up the money.

That is stealing and hurts the integrity of the game.

Imma agree with dum poppa here: requesting/ requiring seeding of its members is way out of line.

 

[Derek]

I don't think seeding is all that bad of an idea but there has to be an organization -- a stable and well-established organization -- that can reliably rank the pros and amateurs nationwide. To just start seeding now would be a bold statement of, "Hey, we're better than everyone else and the rest of you don't deserve a chance."

Seeding is a good idea in terms of trying to get the best possible match-ups in the quarterfinals, and semifinals, and finals. However, people have to be watching for the seeding concept to be intriguing enough. If the tournament doesn't have any media coverage for the fans, then don't bother with seeding because no one cares at that point.

Tennis has a good foundation when seeding tournaments. I believe there is still some randomness to it after the top players have been seeded (top 32?) and it's pretty much the reason you never see Nadal play Federer until the finals.

As for players being cahoots with one another, I only see this being an issue of one ABP member deliberately loses to another ABP member to somehow fix sidebets or a calcutta. Tournaments could always add rules for no splitting the pot at the end if someone feels savers are unethical.

 

[cleary]

Would you please clarify who you are posting to?

Did you read what I wrote or just assume I was attacking you? It should be pretty obvious it was towards the original poster.

But if you want, I can think of some insults and throw em at you???? How about this....

JAM, ppfffff... I would rather have jelly.
or
JAM, quit ruining my peanut butter!
or
JAM, you best check yo expiration date!

 

[GoldCrown]

oh yeah....Pool and Jai-Alai :killingme:

 

[Mickey Qualls]

They want seeding to improve thier chances of getting to the money by playing 'weaker players' in the early rounds. And the perception that the ABP players are projecting is that by seeding, they will guarantee themselves a couple of walk-in-the-park early rounds.
So what will the ABP pros want to change when a few of them get sent to the left side, or go two and out because a few no-names hit them with a few break and runs ?

As far as seeding ? I say f*** 'em. Man up, and take the spot that's drawn for you.

Cream rises to the top. There's no guarantees in a tournament.

 

[JAM]

Did you read what I wrote or just assume I was attacking you? It should be pretty obvious it was towards the original poster.

But if you want, I can think of some insults and throw em at you???? How about this....

JAM, ppfffff... I would rather have jelly.
or
JAM, quit ruining my peanut butter!
or
JAM, you best check yo expiration date!

Your post came after my post, and I questioned who you were addressing; a logical inquiry, if you will.

It was *not* obvious to me; thus, why I asked *you* the question.

 

[sixpack]

That is good advice, and I admit I'm on the computer just about 24/7 with jobs.

I'm scared of the Benadryl. Here I am, an alumni from the Woodstock era, and I do not take any drugs today, none. I guess I did my share back in the day when I was young and dumb. I am fearful of the side effects of drugs now. I try to do everything naturally today.

I think I may have sleep apnea. Well, I'm pretty sure I do. I hate to admit this, but I snore. In fact, I've been told that I'm pretty loud.

Try breathe right strips. Works well for me for the two ailments.

Take care.

~rc

 

[JAM]

Try breathe right strips. Works well for me for the two ailments.

Take care.

~rc

I have those. Do they stay on your nose okay? Mine keep popping off.

 

[cleary]

Your post came after my post, and I questioned who you were addressing; a logical inquiry, if you will.

It was *not* obvious to me; thus, why I asked *you* the question.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA k...

 

[sixpack]

I have those. Do they stay on your nose okay? Mine keep popping off.

You have to clean your nose really good and then dry it hard. I also use the 'extra' ones. Sounds gross but licking your fingers and rubbing your nose before drying cuts down a lot more oil.

~rc

 

[JAM]

You have to clean your nose really good and then dry it hard. I also use the 'extra' ones. Sounds gross but licking your fingers and rubbing your nose before drying cuts down a lot more oil.

~rc

I'll try it. I have not slept 8 hours in probably 10-plus years. I thought it was an aging thing, but it seems like sometimes I wake up every 2 or 3 hours. I've been up today since 2:30 a.m. I fell asleep about 9-ish p.m. I woke up two or three times last night.

Have you tried the metholated vapor strips? They're pretty nice but hard to find.

One thing I notice about pool tournaments, most of the pro players do make an attempt to get their rest. At the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, the ones who gamble all night at Q-Masters do not do well when they make it to their tournament round. Keith falls asleep as soon as he hits the sack. I wish I could do that.

We may go to the Open this year. As far as savers go, I have no problem if my partner wants to make a 5 or 10 percent saver with a fellow player. Most of the time, they're usually good friends of ours, some even hall of famers. I don't want to name anybody, but it's a pretty common practice. Each player still tries their hardest to win. There's no laying down or dumping going on.

 

[sixpack]

I'll try it. I have not slept 8 hours in probably 10-plus years. I thought it was an aging thing, but it seems like sometimes I wake up every 2 or 3 hours. I've been up today since 2:30 a.m. I fell asleep about 9-ish p.m. I woke up two or three times last night.

Have you tried the metholated vapor strips? They're pretty nice but hard to find.

One thing I notice about pool tournaments, most of the pro players do make an attempt to get their rest. At the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, the ones who gamble all night at Q-Masters do not do well when they make it to their tournament round. Keith falls asleep as soon as he hits the sack. I wish I could do that.

We may go to the Open this year. As far as savers go, I have no problem if my partner wants to make a 5 or 10 percent saver with a fellow player. Most of the time, they're usually good friends of ours, some even hall of famers. I don't want to name anybody, but it's a pretty common practice. Each player still tries their hardest to win. There's no laying down or dumping going on.

I like the menthol ones but have only found them once. My wife is that way, she falls asleep in about four seconds. I'm a night owl.

If i combine a breathe right strip with benadryl I get really good sleep. But I only use the benadryl very occasionally.

I wish I could go to the open this year but I just got home after a four month trip.

I have no problem with savers or even splits, but I think it crosses the line when the players arrange the finishes to manipulate the Calcutta. That I would like to see stop.

~rc

 

[hunger strike]

Luke 13:30

They want seeding to improve thier chances of getting to the money by playing 'weaker players' in the early rounds. And the perception that the ABP players are projecting is that by seeding, they will guarantee themselves a couple of walk-in-the-park early rounds.
So what will the ABP pros want to change when a few of them get sent to the left side, or go two and out because a few no-names hit them with a few break and runs ?

As far as seeding ? I say f*** 'em. Man up, and take the spot that's drawn for you.

Cream rises to the top. There's no guarantees in a tournament.

I don't want to just argue with you to be starting something. I really want you to think about this. You say the cream rises to the top. If a lower eschelon player got some rolls and beat a better player, wouldn't that be just as likely to happen earlier or later in tourney rounds? Without seeding, the only positive for the weaker player who, all things being equal, would have ultimately lost anyway, would be to get a few legit wins early on so that they could say they placed at say 5th rather than 11th. But creating a more level playing field is for amateurs and leagues. So is handicapping. Pro tournaments are to see who is best and also who is not. Seeding is common in sports that are more commercially successful than pool. This makes it more likely to have later, televised matches feature more watchable cream-of-the-crop players. We want that as fans. Luke 13:30 says the first shall be last and the last shall be first. That would be a perfect name for a handicapped league team. But pros are not handicapped. The best need to be featured, period. So if pros decide they want seeding, let them have what they want. If someone thinks they got shafted by seeding, he can always do what a famous gambler once did. He can play the tournament winner for the prize money after the cameras go away; and when someone wants him to list his titles, he can draw an arrow and say..... "I beat HIM."

 

[Celtic]

I think the point is that if you want pool to get to the level of tennis or golf you need to start somewhere or nothing gets better. People can always come up for a reason or excuse why the pros in pool do what they do. But at some point the pros have to change (or at least stop whining about how Coca-Cola or Apple won't sponsor a million dollar tour) if they want to improve their lot in life.

Lou Figueroa

Well said, I am on an iPhone ATM and cannot type for long but if this sport ever wants to start moving up the money ladder attitudes need to change. The sponsers and money are not coming unless and until the game changes, not the other way around. Tiger and Federer are simply the guys who get the rewards that people decades before them struggled and worked to create in their sports when they were in their infancy. The money in those sports was not always there and it was decades of growth and hard working pros making alot less money that led to what we have today.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I don't want to just argue with you to be starting something. I really want you to think about this. You say the cream rises to the top. If a lower eschelon player got some rolls and beat a better player, wouldn't that be just as likely to happen earlier or later in tourney rounds? Without seeding, the only positive for the weaker player who, all things being equal, would have ultimately lost anyway, would be to get a few legit wins early on so that they could say they placed at say 5th rather than 11th. But creating a more level playing field is for amateurs and leagues. So is handicapping. Pro tournaments are to see who is best and also who is not. Seeding is common in sports that are more commercially successful than pool. This makes it more likely to have later, televised matches feature more watchable cream-of-the-crop players. We want that as fans. Luke 13:30 says the first shall be last and the last shall be first. That would be a perfect name for a handicapped league team. But pros are not handicapped. The best need to be featured, period. So if pros decide they want seeding, let them have what they want. If someone thinks they got shafted by seeding, he can always do what a famous gambler once did. He can play the tournament winner for the prize money after the cameras go away; and when someone wants him to list his titles, he can draw an arrow and say..... "I beat HIM."

You say handicaps are for amateurs and leagues but one could make the case that seeding is exactly that - a handicap for the professionals and a tax on the amateurs and league players in the event. I understand that other sports that have become more successful (like tennis) use seeding and it is exactly for the reason that you mention, to make the final rounds more attractive. The difference is that tennis has an all professional tour and pool doesn't have the outside money that tennis has. The meager living that professional pool players do have a chance to make is largely funded by the dead money provided by amateurs and league players that enter these events.

I understand the position that Shawn Putnam takes, that if all events were seeded it wouldn't be a gift for the top pros but something they have earned through performance over time. I get that, but it applies more to an all professional event, not to an event like the U.S. Open where the field is made up largely of amateurs and league players that support pro pool and the event by entering.

If the pros had an all professional tour and wanted to seed the events, go at it, no problem. They can do whatever they think is in the best interests of their tour. There have been so many replies against seeding by these very amateurs and lower level players that it seems clear that many would not enter events if the pros were seeded, and this would only lower the available prize funds. So what is good for tennis, a sport with outside money and no need for the dead money entries, is not necessarily right for professional pool as long as they are relying on amateur entries to support the prize fund.

One more point I'd like to make. I'm not sure my idea of having the two best players in the final rounds means the two guys with the highest rankings perhaps by virtue of having played really well in the past but not so much right now. My idea of having the two best players in the final is more about the two guys who are playing best that week. The two guys playing best that week are probably more logically identified with no seeding.

 

[Nostroke]

To me it's more logical to have seeding in an event like the US Open than on a pro tour with its smaller numbers and everyone a champion. Having Shane play Efren the first round when even ducks are playing ducks the next round just isn't right imo

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

To me it's more logical to have seeding in an event like the US Open than on a pro tour with its smaller numbers and everyone a champion. Having Shane play Efren the first round when even ducks are playing ducks the next round just isn't right imo

I hear you but I'm not so sure. In an open event what's so wrong with that? Let's face it, by the time you approach the money most of the bangers will be gone but at least some of them got their money's worth and went further than 2 and out. Perhaps if some of them played well they may even make it into the low money. At my skill level, I'm not really competing against Mika to win the tournament but more against the other guys closer to my speed to see who gets the farthest. So why shouldn't I be playing guys my speed? The reason is because it is an open. But that's the same reason the pros shouldn't be allowed to avoid each other.

But maybe this is actually a solution. When the LO of my BCA league holds tournaments for the members he draws the better players into the top half of the bracket and the lesser players in the bottom half. This encourages participation because the less skilled players have a chance of getting into the money. Why not do this for open events? Draw the pros into the top half and the amateurs into the bottom half. If the pros want their half of the bracket seeded, go ahead and seed it. This would ensure the best later round matches because the pros that are playing the best that week will remain standing since they played each other rather than amateurs early, and almost certainly it will be pretty much an all professional event by the final rounds once the upper half and lower half of the brackets start meeting each other. It's a great deal for the amateurs because they have a chance of lasting a while,getting their money's worth, and the ones that are playing well will have earned the honor of matching up against a professional and/or maybe cashing a little.

I'd bet this kind of structure would increase amateurs donating to the prize fund rather than decease it, and the pros get the to have the seeding they want.

 

[akaTrigger]

Your post came after my post, and I questioned who you were addressing; a logical inquiry, if you will.

It was *not* obvious to me; thus, why I asked *you* the question.

Really? It was obvious who he was talking to. His post made sense what you were talking about, so of course it was the OP.