Action one pocket match controversary

[nobcitypool]

There seems to be all kinds of common sense reasons for requiring the ball to called frozen before each shot. The most common sense reason of all is it would be the best way to avoid an ensuing argument. I don't have a horse in this race and am simply being objective. I also don't see any issue of integrity here. Rules are put in place so there doesn't need to be a question of integrity, the same as contracts are often used to conduct business.

This is the second time inside of a week I've agreed with Lou on something. I sincerely hope I don't choke on a turkey bone on Thursday.

 

[Bbutler]

No real opinion on the thread except for this: why are we still playing this dumb frozen ball rule, anyways? Why not just make a frozen ball deemed to have hit its rail and do away with the BS?

 

[1pocket]

One pocket action match for a few burgers and this controversy on a rule came up last night.

There is 3 balls left on table all in the behind the headstring. One of the balls is froze on the rail. Player A calls it frozen. Player B then shots a different ball than the one frozen and makes it. This ball was not close or was even close to impeding the frozen ball in anyway. Player B is still shooting then rolls up to the ball frozen and has a double kiss.

Player A calls that a foul as the ball was frozen. Player B says no, you didn't call it froze. Player AA did call the ball froze infront of everyone 20 seconds prior. Player B states you have to call it froze every shot.

What is the ruling on this? some at the scene said usually a referee would call it frozen some said it was a grey area that had to be addresses before the match.

to me it seems silly to have to call a ball frozen everytime when it has already been declared frozen and noting has changed that.

makes it worse has player B should

You'd likely be seen as a dick or sharking if you called it froze every shot. Player B is trying to duck the rule imho.

 

[Qaddiction]

Really? If a ball is frozen, then the ball is frozen. Period. You shouldn't have to call a ref. Just be honest.

My two favorite games are golf and pool. It's so hard to believe how different they can be when it comes to integrity. In golf you are taught to be honest and call any fouls against yourself. It seems in pool you are taught to cheat until caught. It amazes me.

 

[vagabond]

In gambling and in life, communication can prevent a lot of problems. You're gambling and there is no referee. Why not just open your mouth and say it's still frozen? And for those who talk about what they would do to the opponent in this situation, I have two questions: How do you know that your opponent (or one of his supporters) isn't ready to go to jail (or doesn't have a get out of jail free card)? What makes more sense? Three simple words, or a potential trip to the jailhouse, the hospital or the morgue?

"Protect yourself at all times." It applies to the box as well as to the ring!

Most of the arguments in pool are the result of one group refusing to follow the Laws/Rules.
Don`t you forget that we are Americans and we don`t like to follow the Laws/Rules. We feel it is silly to have to call " frozen" every time. Why should we follow such silly rules? we love saying "You want to fight ? Come outside , I will freeze your head to the hood of my 1999 Chevy Chevettte". Well sir, that is the attitude of some American Pool players.

 

[vagabond]

Really? If a ball is frozen, then the ball is frozen. Period. You shouldn't have to call a ref. Just be honest.

My two favorite games are golf and pool. It's so hard to believe how different they can be when it comes to integrity. In golf you are taught to be honest and call any fouls against yourself. It seems in pool you are taught to cheat until caught. It amazes me.

Many times it is nothing to do with honesty / integrity. One of the players may have problem with vision and that is how he sees it and it does not mean that he is dishonest.

 

[lfigueroa]

So, one more comment on this: calling a ball frozen every inning is an accepted part of playing 1pocket among experienced players.

It avoids arguments.

It is true that on occasion, two players who are familiar with each other will reach an unspoken agreement that they will give each other the benefit of the doubt and do things like not call balls frozen every inning, or readily call fouls on themselves, or accept at face value whatever their opponent says when asked, "Did you get a rail?" But this is relatively rare and usually limited to friendly games or to guys that have a history of playing each other.

By-and-large, 1pocket players have come to accept that proper protocol is to call a ball frozen every inning. It is not considered a big deal, or nitty, or anything else. In fact I would go so far as to say that if a player rolls up on a ball that was previously called frozen, most 1pocket players would be mad at themselves for not calling in frozen again, rather than at their opponent.

Carry on. I'll check back with you guys in few days if this is still going.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, I was a little skeptical about that one at first too until I remembered something that has happened multiple times. While not in action of course just play play I've hung a ball deep ( and I do mean deep) in a pocket I've slammed my hand on other end of table and made ball fall. This was at least a good 10 seconds after coming to a rest so I know balls have in the past fallen without any interference after a long testing period I do feel confident my slamming of hand caused it. Also I have seen many times a bid truck going down the rd in front of a place vibrate everything .

Slamming your hand on the table is far different than leaning on it.

 

[jay helfert]

The ball is not considered frozen until one of the players call it frozen prior to the shot. Even if I called it frozen on a prior shot, if I let you shoot the same ball without checking, it is not frozen and my bad.

As Lou said, a simple 'Still Frozen' works.

John, if you and I are playing and I call a ball frozen on your turn at the table, I don't have to keep saying it every time you shoot. That ball remains frozen until you dislodge it. In fact in an honorable game between two players, the ball would still be frozen even if it was now my turn. Both players would not have to keep repeating it over and over again.

 

[jay helfert]

So, one more comment on this: calling a ball frozen every inning is an accepted part of playing 1pocket among experienced players.

It avoids arguments.

It is true that on occasion, two players who are familiar with each other will reach an unspoken agreement that they will give each other the benefit of the doubt and do things like not call balls frozen every inning, or readily call fouls on themselves, or accept at face value whatever their opponent says when asked, "Did you get a rail?" But this is relatively rare and usually limited to friendly games or to guys that have a history of playing each other.

By-and-large, 1pocket players have come to accept that proper protocol is to call a ball frozen every inning. It is not considered a big deal, or nitty, or anything else. In fact I would go so far as to say that if a player rolls up on a ball that was previously called frozen, most 1pocket players would be mad at themselves for not calling in frozen again, rather than at their opponent.

Carry on. I'll check back with you guys in few days if this is still going.

Lou Figueroa

I do agree with you here. Not a bad idea to call it frozen at the beginning of every new inning, especially if it's a money match with someone you don't play with on a regular basis.

 

[jay helfert]

You'd likely be seen as a dick or sharking if you called it froze every shot. Player B is trying to duck the rule imho.

Thank you Steve.

 

[John Brumback]

John, if you and I are playing and I call a ball frozen on your turn at the table, I don't have to keep saying it every time you shoot. That ball remains frozen until you dislodge it. In fact in an honorable game between two players, the ball would still be frozen even if it was now my turn. Both players would not have to keep repeating it over and over again.

No Jay,that is incorrect information you are giving. You must call the ball frozen at every turn at the table...if you don't...It's not considered froze. Ethics and all the other BS has nothing to do with it. John B.

 

[longhair]

So, one more comment on this: calling a ball frozen every inning is an accepted part of playing 1pocket among experienced players.



It avoids arguments.



It is true that on occasion, two players who are familiar with each other will reach an unspoken agreement that they will give each other the benefit of the doubt and do things like not call balls frozen every inning, or readily call fouls on themselves, or accept at face value whatever their opponent says when asked, "Did you get a rail?" But this is relatively rare and usually limited to friendly games or to guys that have a history of playing each other.



By-and-large, 1pocket players have come to accept that proper protocol is to call a ball frozen every inning. It is not considered a big deal, or nitty, or anything else. In fact I would go so far as to say that if a player rolls up on a ball that was previously called frozen, most 1pocket players would be mad at themselves for not calling in frozen again, rather than at their opponent.



Carry on. I'll check back with you guys in few days if this is still going.



Lou Figueroa

I agree, that's the accepted practice. Personally, I prefer to start with the assumption that my opponent is honorable and adjust downward if necessary rather than the opposite. If I learn that I must defend myself from less than honorable play I will probably just quit.

However, calling the ball frozen at the beginning of the inning is exactly what the player in the OP story did! The claim being made is that he needed to call it on every shot. Assuming that the description is accurate and complete the shooter is clearly unsportsmanlike/dishonest/untrustworthy/a dirtbag.


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[jrhendy]

John, if you and I are playing and I call a ball frozen on your turn at the table, I don't have to keep saying it every time you shoot. That ball remains frozen until you dislodge it. In fact in an honorable game between two players, the ball would still be frozen even if it was now my turn. Both players would not have to keep repeating it over and over again.

I am not going to say anything unless it looks like you are going to shoot that ball or if you go look at it.

I don't recall being in any arguments about a froze ball for a long time, and I still gamble and play in tournaments fairly often. I accept the responsibility of making sure my opponent knows I think it is frozen before they shoot at that ball.

You and I would never have a problem, but there are players out there that take every advantage they can.

If I think I have the nuts I let them get away with it.lol

 

[Bob Jewett]

... However, calling the ball frozen at the beginning of the inning is exactly what the player in the OP story did! The claim being made is that he needed to call it on every shot. Assuming that the description is accurate and complete the shooter is clearly unsportsmanlike/dishonest/untrustworthy/a dirtbag. ...

I hadn't noticed that detail. I think most people and even one pocket players would agree that you don't have to call a ball frozen multiple times per inning. Imagine a player running six balls when the 10 is frozen down on the head rail. "10's froze" plunk "10's froze" plunk "10's still froze" plunk "10's froze" whack "10's froze" dribble "10's froze" plunk. That would be stupid.

 

[pt109]

No real opinion on the thread except for this: why are we still playing this dumb frozen ball rule, anyways? Why not just make a frozen ball deemed to have hit its rail and do away with the BS?

If you don't have the frozen ball rule, too many stalemates could happen.
When you feel you have to roll up, part of the skill is to freeze the object ball...
...thereby trapping your opponent.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If you don't have the frozen ball rule, too many stalemates could happen.
When you feel you have to roll up, part of the skill is to freeze the object ball...
...thereby trapping your opponent.

I don't think there would be that many stalemates. Players would learn what they can do with a frozen ball.

 

[easy-e]

No Jay,that is incorrect information you are giving. You must call the ball frozen at every turn at the table...if you don't...It's not considered froze. Ethics and all the other BS has nothing to do with it. John B.

He meant he didn't have to call it every time John shoots during that SAME inning. Not "every turn at the table".

 

[Henry W]

One pocket action match for a few burgers and this controversy on a rule came up last night.

There is 3 balls left on table all in the behind the headstring. One of the balls is froze on the rail. Player A calls it frozen. Player B then shots a different ball than the one frozen and makes it. This ball was not close or was even close to impeding the frozen ball in anyway. Player B is still shooting then rolls up to the ball frozen and has a double kiss.

Player A calls that a foul as the ball was frozen. Player B says no, you didn't call it froze. Player AA did call the ball froze infront of everyone 20 seconds prior. Player B states you have to call it froze every shot.

What is the ruling on this? some at the scene said usually a referee would call it frozen some said it was a grey area that had to be addresses before the match.

to me it seems silly to have to call a ball frozen everytime when it has already been declared frozen and noting has changed that.

makes it worse has player B should

I would not play with this person anymore, this is not the end of it. I call people like this pool lawyers, always looking for an advantage in the rules and win on a technicality rather than pool skills. This person knows the ball is still frozen and he made an illegal shot but from his point of view that is not important what is important is taking advantage of a grey area in the rules.

 

[Henry W]

I am not going to say anything unless it looks like you are going to shoot that ball or if you go look at it.

I don't recall being in any arguments about a froze ball for a long time, and I still gamble and play in tournaments fairly often. I accept the responsibility of making sure my opponent knows I think it is frozen before they shoot at that ball.

You and I would never have a problem, but there are players out there that take every advantage they can.

If I think I have the nuts I let them get away with it.lol

This is why I play pool with John Henderson, we actually were playing a set last week and we were betting pretty good and I had a coin on the rail and a ball in my pocket and I asked John if I owed one because I thought I had spotted it but wasn't sure and John said I had spotted it. The guy in the post would never have done that. Unless of of course he just did it because he had the nuts.