Aiming systems

[12310bch]

I'm probably going to get shiite for this but, what the hell. All
the different aiming systems function for only one ultimate thing.
Where to line up the ghost ball on the OB. They all end up there.
They might as well start there.oke:

Yikes . I said it! ( This is of course IMNSHO)
Does that qualifier save me?uttahere:

 

[AtLarge]

Are you good at "seeing" the entire ghost ball, or where the center of the ghost ball would be, or where the ghost ball would sit on the cloth? If so, I certainly agree with you. Just ignore all of this other stuff and replace the ghost ball with the cue ball. Or aim the center of the cue ball at the center of the ghost ball. Or aim the vertical center axis of the cue ball at where the ghost ball sits on the table. Or .............

But some people aren't so good at visualizing anything about the ghost ball.

I discussed this with Tony Robles one time. He insists that he clearly sees the entire ghost ball just sitting there against the object ball. I sure wish I did.

 

[JB Cases]

How do you know where the ghost (imaginary ball) is? If I use reference points on the ball like the edges and the center then I have something a little more tangible to use for lining up.

In other words you are correct when you say that all aiming systems, inlcuding ghost ball, exist with the goal to get the cue correctly lined up along the ONLY line that will work to pocket the ball.

But you can't say that the ghost ball system is equal to other sytems, i.e. that if a person lines up using ghost ball rst and then using another reference point aiming system that they will be on the same line. Those two lines may be the same or they may be completely different depending on the shooter's ability to correctly imagine where the ghost ball should be.

Last night as an example I played five sets. The first two sets I played primarily on "feel" and was missing a lot and predictably lost the first two sets. Starting in the third set I used the Hal Houle system I learned 8 years ago and started making balls from everywhere. It was like a different player stepped in.

Because I learned this system late in life I still have problems using it consistently to this day. What I mean by that is that I don't always force myself to use it as I want to be more fluid and not have to think about it. But I find that IF I force myself to use the system then after playing for a while it becomes more natural and fluid.

I just find that having two physical reference points when aiming as ths Houle system gives me seems to work MUCH better than trying to imagine an invisible ball contacting a tiny point on a sphere and shooting into that space.

 

[pocketspeed]

if there were one particular aiming system that really worked EVERYONE would be using it and everyone that could produce a repeatable stroke would play like god, or if they could kick like efren.

i believe the true value of an aiming system (any aiming system) is that it forces you to to concentrate on the shot, to visualize what the shot is going to look like in your mind, then in that amazing way we have of mind over matter (noetic aiming system if you will) the ball goes. the further you take the visualization (where the cb is going to hit the rail what path its going to take off the rail, and where its finally going to stop) the better you'll play shape. "feel" players prolly have this level of concentration/visualizaion naturally. the rest of us use some form of aiming system to acheive this.

brian

 

[Scott Lee]

There are several "aiming methods"...one of which is ghost ball, and another is "feel" (they are not the same). We know of 7 or 8...most pros use bits and pieces of several methods, but "feel" is predominant for many pro players. Which one(s) you use likely depends on what kind of learning suits you best: auditory, visual, kinesthetic, or tactile. We are all built differently, think differently, learn differently, and percieve differently. That's why there is no "one size fits all" in pool.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[ShootingArts]

quite possible to not use ghost ball at all

On some shots I use basically ghost ball. On some of the toughest shots I use equal opposite points, I don't care at all that the rest of either ball is there. Also when I'm down on the shot I don't care if I can see the pocket or not. That is my simple secret to shooting blind banks and back cutting balls, both things I do a little better than average.

There is an old saying in shooting guns, "aim small, miss small." If you are shooting at the exact center of the target you can miss your exact shot but still hit near enough to the center for a perfect score in many instances. The same is true of pool. When I am trying to bring two balls 2.25" diameter together at a certain angle it is a fairly poorly defined contact. If I refine what I am striving for to be two infinitely tiny points to contact each other, I probably miss the shot I'm seeking to make most of the time. On the other hand, even my near misses trying to make these two tiny points contact each other result in "perfect" pool shots that accomplish all of my real world objectives. It is very possible that many of the other aiming systems are similar to the "equal opposite points" system I often use and never involve the ghost ball at all.

Hu

 

[3RAILKICK]

You have my attention

On some shots I use basically ghost ball. On some of the toughest shots I use equal opposite points, I don't care at all that the rest of either ball is there. Also when I'm down on the shot I don't care if I can see the pocket or not. That is my simple secret to shooting blind banks and back cutting balls, both things I do a little better than average.

There is an old saying in shooting guns, "aim small, miss small." If you are shooting at the exact center of the target you can miss your exact shot but still hit near enough to the center for a perfect score in many instances. The same is true of pool. When I am trying to bring two balls 2.25" diameter together at a certain angle it is a fairly poorly defined contact. If I refine what I am striving for to be two infinitely tiny points to contact each other, I probably miss the shot I'm seeking to make most of the time. On the other hand, even my near misses trying to make these two tiny points contact each other result in "perfect" pool shots that accomplish all of my real world objectives. It is very possible that many of the other aiming systems are similar to the "equal opposite points" system I often use and never involve the ghost ball at all.

Hu

I should but don't know what is meant by 'equal opposite points' aiming.

Could you (or others) expand on that please. Or if you can refer me elswhere (a book/tape/video), I would like to pursue this a bit more.

The back cuts are tough for me especially. Most shots I miss close. Back cuts I miss miserably.

An aiming technique that allows you to aim off the OB (without a CB center or edge reference point) and largely disregard the pocket has got to be pretty powerful. It sounds like you are able to pretty accurately determine the proper shot line to bring the actual contact points into alignment at collision.

It sounds like you are willing to accept occaisional misses-knowing that the aiming system worked-but perhaps the CB delivery down the stroking line may have been slightly flawed due to speed/spin/cue elevation-or some other stroke altering issue.

Usually when I see the full ghost ball superimposed on the OB it means I can't see to drive. I need a better aiming system.

Thanks

 

[Scott Lee]

3RAILKICK...Hu is referring to "contact point" aiming. Refer to www.joetucker.net. Joe utilizes this method, and has a ball set to help you learn the 49 contact points. Remember...NO aiming method will work consistently, without an accurate and repeatable stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I should but don't know what is meant by 'equal opposite points' aiming.

Could you (or others) expand on that please. Or if you can refer me elswhere (a book/tape/video), I would like to pursue this a bit more.

 

[ShootingArts]

Scott, you are correct of course

3RAILKICK...Hu is referring to "contact point" aiming. Refer to www.joetucker.net. Joe utilizes this method, and has a ball set to help you learn the 49 contact points. Remember...NO aiming method will work consistently, without an accurate and repeatable stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

All of these techniques tend to pick up multiple names.

The nice thing is that I don't really learn any points or formulas, I simply look where I need to hit the object ball to pocket it. I actually have an infinite number of contact points or only one depending on how you want to look at it. That contact point does include throw and such to begin with. I literally keep my eyes frozen on that spot on tough shots while getting in position to shoot. Then experience tells me where the opposite point is on the cue ball, the contact point with the object ball. Perhaps the hardest thing is trusting your contact point when you are down on the shot. The contact point sometimes looks wrong even standing behind the cue ball, often looks wrong when I'm down on blind shots, but the balls usually fall when I don't second guess my original shot.

If you don't see the contact point on the cue ball instantly on an odd angle it is very simple to use a straight edge, a cue works just fine, to find the point. Hold it either parallel or perpendicular to the contact point on the object ball and move it back and forth between the cue ball and object ball. This is very handy when you aren't really comfortable with the shot. There was some diagrams of this on the forum awhile back I believe, maybe somebody will remember and give where it can be found.

Hu

 

[Atlatlien]

I'm no instructor but this works for me.

I line up the object ball to the pocket, then find the spot half a ball's width in the opposite direction. That's where the cue should be aimed for a center ball hit. For me, it's roughly an inch outside for a center ball hit, since we play with 2 1/4" balls round here. That's what she said.

 

[genomachino]

They are all the same in that............

I'm probably going to get shiite for this but, what the hell. All
the different aiming systems function for only one ultimate thing.
Where to line up the ghost ball on the OB. They all end up there.
They might as well start there.oke:

Yikes . I said it! ( This is of course IMNSHO)
Does that qualifier save me?uttahere:

All aiming systems are the same in the respect that if they work there is only one perfect spot to have the eye that is doing the shooting. Just like a gun.

If the aiming system or technique get you to this one perfect spot then you have a winner.

This is why sometimes when you get down to shoot the shot looks really good like it will go.

And then sometimes it doesn't quite look right. Move your head a little bit. You will find the right spot on that shot by doing this.

Wouldn't it be nice to know where that spot is on every shot.

You can.......

 

[Matt90]

a hand gun or riffle ?

All aiming systems are the same in the respect that if they work there is only one perfect spot to have the eye that is doing the shooting. Just like a gun.

If the aiming system or technique get you to this one perfect spot then you have a winner.

This is why sometimes when you get down to shoot the shot looks really good like it will go.

And then sometimes it doesn't quite look right. Move your head a little bit. You will find the right spot on that shot by doing this.

Wouldn't it be nice to know where that spot is on every shot.

You can.......

Geno, something has been floating around in my head this week and I think you just touched on it . I have always been pretty proficient with a rifle ,when shooting this week I could see one spot that really was the perfect spot ,it was almost like the feeling I get when I am about to squeeze the triger and know its going to be a bullseye.It was a really good feeling
and I had it all week ,till last night .I got agravated with the quality of the crowd and music at the pool room and should not have even played .....but that's another thread.

 

[mr_griff]

I try to use a combination of things

One thing that seems to work pretty well is to visualize a line passing through the object ball center of the ball into the pocket. A lot of people will get behind the object ball and look directly through it to the pocket. They are looking right down this line.

Then, getting behind the cue ball, see the line extending from the center of the cue ball to either the center of the object ball or to the contact point (those 2 points are exactly 1/2 ball apart if you can still see that first line passing through the center of the object ball). Depending on whether you can more easily see the center of the object ball or the contact point will determine which is easier for you to use. I try to maintain the object ball line as best I can (the key to seeing the shot if you use this aiming technique). The trick becomes moving the cue ball line either 1/2 a ball width (if you start out seeing the intersection at the contact point of the OB), or a full ball width (if your line passes through the center of the object ball). As long as you can maintain the object ball line, you know exactly what direction to move the the cue ball line.

The only different between this and the ghost ball method is that you are keeping the visual information 2 dimensional. If I have a chance I will try to diagram this. I have no difficulty seeing lines at the table. Sometimes seeing a ghost ball in 3d is a bit tricky. Once you see the first two lines it just becomes a matter of seeing a 2d picture of the ghost ball or half a ball again which ever is easier (to me the center of the oject ball is easier).

 

[CreeDo]

If you wanted to say that all aiming systems share something with each other... and therefore we should just be doing that "something"... you might also look at this way:

Every aiming system I've heard of requires making subconscious corrections and adjustments... using nothing but experience and feel. These adjustments aren't spelled out on paper anywhere, and maybe aren't even explained by an instructor. The player just figures them out as he goes along.

If you have to make little adjustments (based on hitting a lot of balls, aka experience), why not just shoot strictly by experience and aim using common sense only, like picking out the contact point and then doing your best to aim so that the backside of the CB touches it?

The system guys would like us to believe that you can skip a big chunk of the "hit-a-million-balls" grinding, like maybe you only need to hit 600,000 balls. Maybe so, I've never seen it. My instinct tells me that they still have to hit a million balls... 500k to figure out the system, and another 500k to learn all the little exceptions and tweaks and adjustments.

 

[Ratta]

Every player is using parts of several systems without knowing- that s what i would i say from my experience.
To find out what works best for you is the hardest part (of course next to good fundamentals including a reapeatable straight stroke!).

At least it s all a problem about how you are able to visualize- and this will be reached with hard training (some need less, some need more^^)

lg from overseas,

Ingo

 

[predator]

Excuse me, but after several years of playing pool, how could you possibly not know where to hit the object ball so that it goes into the hole? Do some people have visualization that poor? I just don't believe it.
Why in the world would you need to use a mechanical system anyway? Your brain is smarter than you think. Why not simply allow your brain to learn the angles naturally through practice?

Of course, knowing where to hit the object ball and actually sending the cue ball there are two different things. Execution of the shot itself is much harder than judging of the angles.

 

[JarnoV]

Why in the world would you need to use a mechanical system anyway? Your brain is smarter than you think. Why not simply allow your brain to learn the angles naturally through practice?

Yeah, second that. Further, how exactly all this happens in our brain is still somewhat unknown. The only thing you really do when you practice is to set goals, so to speak. You think something along the lines of "I want that ball to go there" and with enough practice, your brain will learn it. I'm sure some amount of manual adjustment makes the learning more effective, in cases where you originally have no clue of where to hit the balls. But even then, it's best to leave your brain to its own devices and not try to consciously control the process.

And I think that the end result isn't so much that you can verbally describe where and how exactly are you aiming, but more of an overall feeling in your body. Sure, you have to aim at some specific point and with some method, but I think that when you've practiced enough and are in a good stroke, it would be pretty hard, if not impossible, to describe how you did a successful shot. In fact, I've noticed in myself that when I'm playing well, I can feel the shot going in before I'm even down for the shot. When I'm lining up and getting ready to drop down and execute, I already feel sure that my body knows what to do.

I realize that all this might sound mystical or intentionally confusing, but that's not what I'm aiming [hah] for. I don't think there's anything mystical about the whole process and I believe it can be known. But for the person who is executing the shot, conscious mind is usually only distracting the execution, not helping it.

 

[Geometry]

I'm probably going to get shiite for this but, what the hell. All
the different aiming systems function for only one ultimate thing.
Where to line up the ghost ball on the OB. They all end up there.
They might as well start there.oke:

Yikes . I said it! ( This is of course IMNSHO)
Does that qualifier save me?uttahere:

Ghost ball is good for the beginner. Its conceptually easy to grasp and makes them a better banger. The aiming system is perfectly adequate for their level of precision of mechanics. The problem is that it brings you to a plateau for many of the reasons already mentioned in the thread. If you are to do that method, its better to think of the CB and OB as a cluster - separated by distance sighting down the cluster corridor so at least you don't mentally actually have to have the ball behind the ball visualisation. It is an abstract system though.

I think that fractional aiming has its place. It's usefulness is really not actually with making you a precision aimer though.

The spot between the overlap is flawed due to perspective distortion, wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Kinda works with thin cuts however.

I'm now learning CTE and learning everyday and am reading every post with excitement. I have spent many hours incubating all the information from spiderwebcomm on this site and his blog.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I use a shaft method when I am playing, been doing this for the past 6 months and my game has really been coming up. I have to say in some ways I feel like I learned a secret that many good players use to pocket balls. Ever see some player never look at the line of the ball to pocket and where they went to hit the object ball?, they just get down and shoot the ball, these players are most likely using a method similar to this.

I feel now with this method that if I miss a ball it is either that I did not follow through straight or I got down on the shot wrong, I can tell when I do it because it does not feel right. I need to get back up and reset when that happens instead of shooting, biggest thing is not getting lazy.

 

[sfleinen]

Some can see ghostball better than others

Ghost ball is good for the beginner. Its conceptually easy to grasp and makes them a better banger. The aiming system is perfectly adequate for their level of precision of mechanics. The problem is that it brings you to a plateau for many of the reasons already mentioned in the thread. If you are to do that method, its better to think of the CB and OB as a cluster - separated by distance sighting down the cluster corridor so at least you don't mentally actually have to have the ball behind the ball visualisation. It is an abstract system though.

I think that fractional aiming has its place. It's usefulness is really not actually with making you a precision aimer though.

The spot between the overlap is flawed due to perspective distortion, wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Kinda works with thin cuts however.

I'm now learning CTE and learning everyday and am reading every post with excitement. I have spent many hours incubating all the information from spiderwebcomm on this site and his blog.

How do you know where the ghost (imaginary ball) is? If I use reference points on the ball like the edges and the center then I have something a little more tangible to use for lining up.

In other words you are correct when you say that all aiming systems, inlcuding ghost ball, exist with the goal to get the cue correctly lined up along the ONLY line that will work to pocket the ball.

But you can't say that the ghost ball system is equal to other sytems, i.e. that if a person lines up using ghost ball rst and then using another reference point aiming system that they will be on the same line. Those two lines may be the same or they may be completely different depending on the shooter's ability to correctly imagine where the ghost ball should be.

Last night as an example I played five sets. The first two sets I played primarily on "feel" and was missing a lot and predictably lost the first two sets. Starting in the third set I used the Hal Houle system I learned 8 years ago and started making balls from everywhere. It was like a different player stepped in.

Because I learned this system late in life I still have problems using it consistently to this day. What I mean by that is that I don't always force myself to use it as I want to be more fluid and not have to think about it. But I find that IF I force myself to use the system then after playing for a while it becomes more natural and fluid.

I just find that having two physical reference points when aiming as ths Houle system gives me seems to work MUCH better than trying to imagine an invisible ball contacting a tiny point on a sphere and shooting into that space.

Geometry and JB Cases (and others, for that matter):

As AtLarge mentioned about Tony Robles being able to see the entire ghost ball, plain as day, I'm also in that camp. I can not only visualize that ghost ball, but I can actually "see" it, due to excellent 3D spacial perception that I (humbly) was gifted with.

And my ability to "see" it includes all aspects; the size of the ghost ball, where it sits on the cloth, where it's touching the object ball -- and I can do this no matter where I am in relation to the shot, no matter where I'm standing at the table. I literally can see it so clearly, that with my eyes focused on that ghostball and never taking my eyes off of it, I can reach my arm over my head, extend my index finger in a pointing downwards motion, and then bring my arm down swiftly so that my pointed-downwards index finger pierces right through the middle of it. Or, from 6 or more feet away, I can extend my cue and swiftly bring the tip down to rest upon the exact spot where the ghostball sits, no matter where I am in relation to the shot; if I gently lay the cue to rest on the table, with the tip resting on the spot where the ghostball sits, and then walk over behind the object ball in line with the shot and examine closely, the cue tip is resting upon the exact spot where a cue ball would be sitting if it were in contact with the object ball to pocket that object ball.

I admit, this is a gift that I'm very thankful for. And I'm thankful for this because I realize that the majority of people don't have this ability. And it's become increasingly clear to me, when I read all these aiming threads on AZBilliards, that this lucid 3D spacial perception is not common at all.

So JB Cases, before you go asking questions like "How do you know where the ghost (imaginary ball) is?" in a challenging manner, please realize that different people have different skills, different levels of visual perception. And it's not a matter of eyesight strength, either. I've seen 80-year-olds that've demonstrated to me they "see" the ghostball very clearly, even with Macular Degeneration. They've done the "put the cue tip upon the exact spot where the ghostball sits in-line with the shot" from over 6 feet away, which proves to me that they aren't hiding the ability to see the ghostball by using some other method. They may not be able to see the edges of the balls clearly due to Macular Degeneration, but they can certainly see the center of a fuzzy image, and can put their cue tip through the middle of it.

Just as is the case with folks doubting CTE, don't get caught in the same trap and doubt ghostball technique works, or that some folks do it better than others.

Just some food for thought,
-Sean