American legs weak on foreign soil? Or simply not good enough?

[voiceofreason]

World Championships should be race to 13 MINIMUM. It's no ones fault that they don't set up a tournament to see who is really best.

Sorry?

Are you suggesting that all football matches should be 90 minutes apart from world events which should be 4 hours "so we get to know the best of the best of the best".

If you go down the local park at the weekend and watch a sunday pub team they are playing the same game on the same size pitch between the same number of players for the same length of time.

Football is football.

A pool match is a pool match. The distance is predtermined by the governing body and set accordingly.

But at the end of the day, all of that is meaningless. World champion is world champion. It is the final person standing after a predetermined event has been played down to a final two, and then a champion is found.

Be it boxing, golf, football, snooker or even pool.

World champion is world champion...

It is a race to one....

You have either won one or you have not.

That is it..

 

[MapleMan]

Americans have been dominant for 100 years. Until 2006 England barely paid any interest to American pool at all. Given a few years and three or four players swapping from English pool and snooker to your game and woosh... world beaters before you know it..

Guys like Appleton didn't just appear here and win US Opens and world 9 ball championships. They paid their dues. Watch Appleton's interview with AZB and you will see that he says something along the lines of him being shocked in regard to his success.

Point being it is not Americans so much as it is Appleton.

 

[Ron Swanson]

His mentality reminds me of Phil Helmuth playing poker.

Phil after loosing" It doesn't make sense, I play the right way, he doesn't. I should win....it's not fair.... why wont he play my way" Lol childish mentality.

Childish? It's not me stamping my feet and spitting out the dummy following a little criticism.

America has been on a downwards trajectory FOR YEARS. Fact. Take SVB away and you have nothing in the present. There may be an undercurrent of fantastic players waiting in the wings, but I seriously doubt it. The ONLY way to change this apparently terminal decline in your fortunes is to take a long, critical look at what you are doing and put a plan in place to change it.

This is hard. It takes a clear head, a strong stomach and big balls. All change is painful, in the short term at least, but it is generally positive.

But do you WANT to change?

 

[Ron Swanson]

Sorry?

Are you suggesting that all football matches should be 90 minutes apart from world events which should be 4 hours "so we get to know the best of the best of the best".

If you go down the local park at the weekend and watch a sunday pub team they are playing the same game on the same size pitch between the same number of players for the same length of time.

Football is football.

A pool match is a pool match. The distance is predtermined by the governing body and set accordingly.

But at the end of the day, all of that is meaningless. World champion is world champion. It is the final person standing after a predetermined event has been played down to a final two, and then a champion is found.

Be it boxing, golf, football, snooker or even pool.

World champion is world champion...

It is a race to one....

You have either won one or you have not.

That is it..

More to the point, if short races make the game such a coin toss, why do the same players (and nations) keep winning titles?

America is due. Yeah, that's it, they're just on a bad run - their luck will turn soon.

 

[parvus1202]

Americans have been dominant for 100 years. Until 2006 England barely paid any interest to American pool at all. Given a few years and three or four players swapping from English pool and snooker to your game and woosh... world beaters before you know it..

Americans are dominant against who? Against fellow Americans maybe. All I know is when two guys named Morales and Parica came to America, these two unknown dominate the dominant Americans in the early 80s. They even called the other guy Magician. They saw shots never attempted by anyone, but in his home country it is done by everybody. In the old days, only Americans play 9 ball. They stage world championship with 99% Americans. Americans are not aware that there were better pool players than they were but hidden from them so they thought they are the greatest. Now that these guys showed up and world championships are held with international players, suddenly Americans lost their grip to their so called 100 years of dominance. Please spare us the 100 years of dominant thing, just play pool.

 

[CreeDo]

None of the world titles he hasn't won are in those formats, so what's your point?

Winning various short-race tournaments obviously means something.
You have to be a good player to win.

That doesn't automatically mean that losing them "means something" too.
It doesn't mean that a player has some special problem, is a dog, lacks talent, or can't cue properly.
The format is designed to create 123 losers. Some of whom will make zero mistakes.

You can infer something from a win. You can't infer much of anything from a loss.
If Shane and I both got knocked out in the first round, that doesn't make us "equals".

 

[NYC cue dude]

I wouldn't say ANY country or continent is "dominent" in tournaments. Most are in the mix with various players. The reason being, short race format. Rolls play a way bigger part than any form of play. That's why when good players match up, they want a longer set to even the rolls hopefully.

Are Amercan's not in the mix now? What European just snapped of DCC, and the various US opens, or Turning stone, or any other number of tournaments where there were plenty of foreign players? Thorsten just got the 14.1 world, where are all his other tournament wins?

Thorsten has won 2 world 9 ball titles (his most recent last week) and 3 14.1 world titles. This in addition to 2005 BCA 9ball championship and IPT North American open championship ($350k)

 

[SakuJack]

Yet they won't play the long races with Shane...

Because short races with goofy formats in oddball corners of the world are the real way you see who is best.

Honestly I think they have about as much merit as races to 75 or 100. A race to 100 doesn't necessarily give you the best player, in my opinion, it just gives you the best endurance player. In the same way that a race to 7 doesn't necessarily give you the best player (even excluding luck), it just gives you the best pressure player.

21 is fine, in my book, and I don't see the need to go over 27. It seems to be a cultural thing, though, as Americans seem love their long races.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Its gone a little off topic now...

But I do hope that USA Pool Players do learn that there are bigger ponds with bigger fish outside of America. While that can be intimidating; the players who do choose to make the regular journey's to Europe, Asia or both should reap the benefits sooner rather than later.

I also hope that sooner rather than later the USA pool scene matures into a global marketed product with reputable associations and leaders to drag the game into the 21st Century...

I hope :thumbup:

 

[victorl]

You can't call yourself the best unless you can go into someone else's house (or this case country) and beat them on their home turf. Those top European and Filipino guys are used to traveling and playing all over the world year round and that experience gives them a huge advantage over Shane and the other American pros, who are basically homers.

 

[pro9dg]

Childish? It's not me stamping my feet and spitting out the dummy following a little criticism.

America has been on a downwards trajectory FOR YEARS. Fact. Take SVB away and you have nothing in the present. There may be an undercurrent of fantastic players waiting in the wings, but I seriously doubt it. The ONLY way to change this apparently terminal decline in your fortunes is to take a long, critical look at what you are doing and put a plan in place to change it.

This is hard. It takes a clear head, a strong stomach and big balls. All change is painful, in the short term at least, but it is generally positive.

But do you WANT to change?

There are a few good points here. What would make a difference would be for someone to pick up a Messiah tab. Right now there is one savior for the game in the USA. You will see him lead out Team Europe at the Mirage in December.

Johan Ruysink has just relinquished his long time contract with the Dutch Pool Federation and is available for a new challenge.
He is a man with a plan and it would be Revival Time for the game in the USA.
Maybe Mark Griffin or some other visionary to pick up his salary tab. Then all you guys on here could look forward to a bright future.
Invest in the future

 

[jhanso18]

More to the point, if short races make the game such a coin toss, why do the same players (and nations) keep winning titles?

America is due. Yeah, that's it, they're just on a bad run - their luck will turn soon.

Please show me the consistant wins from the same nation and player at world Championships?

You obviously have no idea what real pool is. I'll tell you what, since you're so confident, why don't we bet on the Mosconi? Or better off, since the Euro's are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better, what kind of odds are you giving me? We have the Squirrel this year, that train wreck should all but guarantee a victory for team Europe. SO you'll lay 2-1 odds no problem right? Races to 5 there's no way the Euro boys lose this, Right???
,

 

[bender_lu]

quite amusing thread....

of course, short races have the disadvantage that rolls, or only a slightly better break, have a big influence on the outcome. like in all sports, the "races" are determined by a governing body, and it will be difficult to change this.

sure, i enjoy watching long races, i love straight pool matches that go beyond the 200 or 250ball mark (its only very rare), but how long would a tournament take to finish?

i would say bring straight pool back as the real champions game; you need good potting, speed controll and strong patterns, there will very likely be no "new guy" who will come out of nowhere and blast the elite away.

lets them play 3 sets to 100 in first round, 5 in second, and 7 to 150 inthe last X rounds. this will take forever, give you definetely the BEST player in straight pool and no1 can knock the winner.

On the other hand, which player will play so long matches witchout big payback?

Same goes to 9ball,10ball,8ball, whatever. you can take race to 3 sets, each set being race to 10 racks.... it till take eternally.

but will it change that much? maybe...maybe not.

You can write for the next 5 years that no1 except US god SVB is the very best among all of humand that ever swung a cue, he only needs longer races... well never find out.... on the other hand can such a titan of pool be so unlucky that he wins so "rarely" (irony) in short races?

PS: maybe some people should stop to see SVB as the messias of pool, that might encourage some trolls to just jump on it.

so long...

 

[Cdryden]

Childish? It's not me stamping my feet and spitting out the dummy following a little criticism.

America has been on a downwards trajectory FOR YEARS. Fact. Take SVB away and you have nothing in the present. There may be an undercurrent of fantastic players waiting in the wings, but I seriously doubt it. The ONLY way to change this apparently terminal decline in your fortunes is to take a long, critical look at what you are doing and put a plan in place to change it.

This is hard. It takes a clear head, a strong stomach and big balls. All change is painful, in the short term at least, but it is generally positive.

But do you WANT to change?

So, SVB is the only American player worth anything according to you. Good lord, and you call us blind. I have never said that pool isn't on the decline. I just don't agree with your logic of saying that our fundamentals are the cause.

All I hear is you stomping your feet and screaming "Do it my way, do it my way". Go back to bed Phil, you're still a little cranky.

 

[SakuJack]

Please show me the consistant wins from the same nation and player at world Championships?

Not a world championship, but the Mosconi itself is a pretty good indicator.

Also, when was there last an American world 9-ball champion? If memory serves it was Earl, more than 10 years ago.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

There are a few good points here. What would make a difference would be for someone to pick up a Messiah tab. Right now there is one savior for the game in the USA. You will see him lead out Team Europe at the Mirage in December.

Johan Ruysink has just relinquished his long time contract with the Dutch Pool Federation and is available for a new challenge.
He is a man with a plan and it would be Revival Time for the game in the USA.
Maybe Mark Griffin or some other visionary to pick up his salary tab. Then all you guys on here could look forward to a bright future.
Invest in the future

George Washington faces the Brits by HIMSELF -
Martin Luther King talking Civil Rights ALONE in 1960's Birmingham, USA - would of got lenched!

Johan Ruysink (or any other competent person) - with a plan, the backing of all USA pool players and USA $$$...

HIStory writes itself.

 

[West Point 1987]

In general, European players don't gamble much...they are tournament warriors. Eurotour players work their way up through a complex, highly organized league system and must qualify every step of the way. They have coaches and instructors and they work very hard at improving...I've watched Eurotour players shoot the same monotonous drill for hours and hours. SVB is one of the few that has that work ethic, most of our players spend their time matching up--not bad, but clearly SVB spending three straight hours doing nothing but 10 Ball breaks has made a difference in his game.

I've seen hundreds of U.S. players that are better than most of the average Eurotour players I've had the opportunity to play against or watch play...we've definitely got more players of that caliber here...but we won't see many U.S. players win the big events in Europe if you only have 5 or 6 AA players show up. And those AAA world beaters that do manage to go have to contend with jet lag, unfamiliar rules/formats, etc. Back when Bustamante was torturing everybody in Germany, he lived there full time. SVB would easily do that if he lived there.

Mosconi Cup is an exhibition...short races to 5 or 6 with wierd break rules and screaming crowds doesn't prove who's best. I'd like to see some one pocket at the Mosconi Cup. In the 11 years I spent in Europe I never met a player that ever heard of the game...some of the straight pool players would do well, but I suspect the U.S. players would run away with it.

 

[thewhiffer]

Silly to feed the trolls I know but by my count three of the absolute best European players of the last decade all live in the US and have for a while. Wonder why they would do that if sucks so bad compared to where they come from?

Well said.

 

[jhanso18]

In general, European players don't gamble much...they are tournament warriors. Eurotour players work their way up through a complex, highly organized league system and must qualify every step of the way. They have coaches and instructors and they work very hard at improving...I've watched Eurotour players shoot the same monotonous drill for hours and hours. SVB is one of the few that has that work ethic, most of our players spend their time matching up--not bad, but clearly SVB spending three straight hours doing nothing but 10 Ball breaks has made a difference in his game.

I've seen hundreds of U.S. players that are better than most of the average Eurotour players I've had the opportunity to play against or watch play...we've definitely got more players of that caliber here...but we won't see many U.S. players win the big events in Europe if you only have 5 or 6 AA players show up. And those AAA world beaters that do manage to go have to contend with jet lag, unfamiliar rules/formats, etc. Back when Bustamante was torturing everybody in Germany, he lived there full time. SVB would easily do that if he lived there.

Mosconi Cup is an exhibition...short races to 5 or 6 with wierd break rules and screaming crowds doesn't prove who's best. I'd like to see some one pocket at the Mosconi Cup. In the 11 years I spent in Europe I never met a player that ever heard of the game...some of the straight pool players would do well, but I suspect the U.S. players would run away with it.

This is pry one of the best posts in this thread. Explains a TON, and gives credit where do to both sides, where it's due.

I would add to this by saying, if USA ever does organize something along the lines of a Eurotour type structure, LOOK OUT WORLD. You would have guys like Landon or Skyler all over the place. Can you imagine if the extra competition leads SVB to playing ANOTHER ball or two better than he does now??? It would be insane to try and beat the U.S. players.

 

[30REBORNFAN]

To say that American players have under-performed overseas is just simple math but to question the quality and strength in depth is ludicrous in my opinion.

How many US Open 9 Ball finals have been contested between 2 non-Americans? I genuinely don't know the answer but it can't be many.