An open conversation on what pool in North America needs and can support.

Marcopolo said:
In my opinion, what Kevin Trudeau had for the IPT was a great idea. That type of idea will make pool get to the next level.
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I'm not familiar with all of the details but I remember something about Trudeau's plan being to have internet gambling on the matches as a way to fund it and congress passing a law blocking it.

To be honest I think the current level of interest in pool is where it will remain. There are too many other entertainment avenues for youngsters these days and we have a short attention span culture. When I first walked into a pool hall it was one of the most fantastic things I'd ever seen but that was 50 years ago when there was nothing else to do. I'd love to be proven wrong and see pool get a regular spot on television. Maybe, just maybe if a cable channel gave it a chance and sponsored a pro tour with regular tournaments it would become popular and turn the sport mainstream.

Regarding the WPA requiring a membership I see how it might help the WPA but I don't see how it helps the sport or pool players. It seems like a way to coerce players into joining the WPA and/or force tournaments to come under the umbrella of the WPA in order to attract top players to the tournament. Seems like more of a grab for power than anything productive to the sport.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
I never said we start from 'Scratch"

You do not destroy what is already in place you just build on it and leverage it "Only"

Put the existing event promotors as profit sharing with the players and "Double" all prices and create a "Monopoly" and force the fans and sponsors to pay to play!

I doubt given the Low prices that anyone is going to "Buck"



The Problems are transportation "Costs" and "infrastructure"

Charter a plane and pick up 28 professional players from around the globe and help get them to the venues.

or

Exclude large groups of players due to logistics. No way around it. Pick ups in Manilla , Taiwan, Japan, Europe then on to america and have it all arranged by the WPA and a way to keep cost low for players and organized.

Things can be done and promotors made happy. Just need the "Monopoly" to apply pressure and get money into the sport from fans and sponsors and networks.

KD
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Your funny
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Based on these "prices" for other major professional sports below! The consumer is getting off cheap in "Pro" Pool!!! Football and Soccer season tickets are in the Thousands and Pool fans do not spend that kind of money.

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The difference is that many (most) of those sports', fans are not players themselves, while for pool I doubt that more than 5-10% of the paying spectators are non-players.

Any solution whose starting point and (almost total) focus is not "how do we get the non-player to be fans" is doomed to failure, IMO. Pool players are simply not a big enough group to support the game on their own. And who knows, once a non-player is a fan they might want to try it out for themselves. Look at how a guy like Tiger Woods drew many people into trying and taking up the game of golf. And Arnie before him.

The closest thing to that in cue sports is probably Ronnie O'Sullivan. And funny thing, HIS cue sport is in the best financial shape, largely because snooker draws a LOT of non-players to its events. Because they want to see Ronnie. And in the process they find out about other great players and become true fans.
 
alstl said:
I'm not familiar with all of the details but I remember something about Trudeau's plan being to have internet gambling on the matches as a way to fund it and congress passing a law blocking it.

To be honest I think the current level of interest in pool is where it will remain. There are too many other entertainment avenues for youngsters these days and we have a short attention span culture. When I first walked into a pool hall it was one of the most fantastic things I'd ever seen but that was 50 years ago when there was nothing else to do. I'd love to be proven wrong and see pool get a regular spot on television. Maybe, just maybe if a cable channel gave it a chance and sponsored a pro tour with regular tournaments it would become popular and turn the sport mainstream.

Regarding the WPA requiring a membership I see how it might help the WPA but I don't see how it helps the sport or pool players. It seems like a way to coerce players into joining the WPA and/or force tournaments to come under the umbrella of the WPA in order to attract top players to the tournament. Seems like more of a grab for power than anything productive to the sport.
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When Deno called me to talk about my ideas, and the IPTs' ideas....I told him on the phone then that the IPT' was going to fail....and guess what.....it did....LOL
 
Any plans to straighten out pool....that does not start out with bringing forth and grouping together the best players on the planet first to represent this sport in every pool playing country in the world....FIRST....it's going to fail....and I don't care who's plans they are....Fargo ratings included or not.
 
realkingcobra said:
When Deno called me to talk about my ideas, and the IPTs' ideas....I told him on the phone then that the IPT' was going to fail....and guess what.....it did....LOL
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Out of curiousity, and Im not sure if you already listed them, but what were your reasons why the IPT would fail...

Not to sound like a smartass, but if anyone comes to the pool world and says there is a new tour and organization starting and you say "It will fail", you will be right 99 percent of the time.
 
Icon of Sin said:
Out of curiousity, and Im not sure if you already listed them, but what were your reasons why the IPT would fail...

Not to sound like a smartass, but if anyone comes to the pool world and says there is a new tour and organization starting and you say "It will fail", you will be right 99 percent of the time.
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I think it's an American thing that we pride ourselves on being able to quickly spot the flaw in anybody else's plan or argument.

Over time I've realized that spotting errors and predicting failure doesn't make you smart. It only makes you an expert on failure.

And dooms you to the same. Failure.

These days I don't ever brag about seeing how someone who has failed - would fail. That's easy. And useless.

Instead I admire their courage for trying when others had none.

When I see someone trying something that seems doomed to fail, I look for the great things in it. I look for ways it might succeed. Then I look to see if there is something I can do to help them.

And I cheer for them. And if they fail I try to help them up and tell them I admire their fight. And if they succeed I celebrate their success and raise a glass to them.

I've fought and failed more than I've fought and won and I hope people give me the same quarter when I fail and the same nod when I succeed.

But I'll keep fighting either way.

And people who don't fight will keep telling me I'm doing it wrong.
 
I've said over and over again....I have the plan to straighten pool out on a world wide basis....and it INVOLVES the use of pool rooms all around the world.....it DON'T exclude them. Skill level testing is the best way to decide who should be playing and who should take be playing at the Pro level....Frags ratings are the best way to match up players on that Pro level for betting....but NOT for deciding who is a Pro and who is not. A players heart is measured in the ring so to speak, in actual competition, the ability to hold it together under pressure.....but even before that player steps into the ring, there ARE ways to tell if the player even belongs in that arena or not. And that's the problem today....NO ONE IS WILLING TO STEP FORWARD....and draw a line in the sand and say....if you're on THIS side of the line, you....today....belong here. If today, you're on the OTHER side of that line.....keep practicing, you may someday be on the Pro side of the line, and IF...and WHEN you are, there'll be a spot open for you. But today, these 128 players are the ones who've worked the hardest, proven they're the best there is in this sport....so, today they'll represent all of the countries they come from....to make this professional level of sport of ours...the greatest showing of skills never before witnessed in the past....and from here on forward....THESE 128 PLAYERS ARE THE BEST OF THE BEST....FROM THE WHOLE WORLD OF POOL PLAYERS.
 
The question is, how do you make that happen? Well, I figured that out a long time ago, but......someone's production schedule fell way behind.....so my plans for raising the money I need to put my plans into action fell way behind as well.
 
sixpack said:
I think it's an American thing that we pride ourselves on being able to quickly spot the flaw in anybody else's plan or argument.

Over time I've realized that spotting errors and predicting failure doesn't make you smart. It only makes you an expert on failure.

And dooms you to the same. Failure.

These days I don't ever brag about seeing how someone who has failed - would fail. That's easy. And useless.

Instead I admire their courage for trying when others had none.

When I see someone trying something that seems doomed to fail, I look for the great things in it. I look for ways it might succeed. Then I look to see if there is something I can do to help them.

And I cheer for them. And if they fail I try to help them up and tell them I admire their fight. And if they succeed I celebrate their success and raise a glass to them.

I've fought and failed more than I've fought and won and I hope people give me the same quarter when I fail and the same nod when I succeed.

But I'll keep fighting either way.

And people who don't fight will keep telling me I'm doing it wrong.
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Great Post!

Now get out there and win one for the Gipper!!

JC
 
realkingcobra said:
The question is, how do you make that happen? Well, I figured that out a long time ago, but......someone's production schedule fell way behind.....so my plans for raising the money I need to put my plans into action fell way behind as well.
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Your proposed "product" sounds absolutely great; your marketing sucks, though. And isn't that the point of this thread, marketing pool?


How does one get 128 players at the same place numerous times a year?: With payouts big enough to make it profitable for each (or most, anyway) of those players. And where do the payouts come from?

Back to square one.


Jeff Livingston
 
JoeyA said:
I get that. But somehow you have to support the "ENTIRE" group of professional players under contract for the entire year and that's where the rubber meets the road. Let's say 32 professional players, average earnings $70,000.00 per year. That's a little over $2 million dollars a year BEFORE expenses for holding the events.

You can't reach back into the player's pockets for that $2million dollars AND YOU HAVE TO PREVENT ALL 32 players from competing in other non-sanctioned events if you want exclusivity.

How much to run 6 "PROFESSIONAL" events per year? (IDK)

Professional PRODUCTION/streaming doesn't come cheap.
Facility Costs.
Equipment/Set up/take-down costs.

I'm guessing that a Bi-monthly production is the way to go to satisfy the "fix" for the viewers. Anything more would be saturation. Keep the fans hungry. You don't see NASCAR races on tv every week.

Events scattered around the country.

How does the promoter recoup his investment/expenses let alone make a profit? (We all know that television advertisements are the only way)

JoeyA



JoeyA
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HUH??? Isn't Nascar on from Feb- Sept just about every week? Not to mention selling out huge venues of 100,000 plus seats every week at outrageous prices? Don't forget the hundreds of millions in sales of fan fare.
 
chefjeff said:
Your proposed "product" sounds absolutely great; your marketing sucks, though. And isn't that the point of this thread, marketing pool?


How does one get 128 players at the same place numerous times a year?: With payouts big enough to make it profitable for each (or most, anyway) of those players. And where do the payouts come from?

Back to square one.


Jeff Livingston
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Really Jeff....do you actually think I don't have a plan for that already? Here's just ONE little part of my plans..... sanctioning 1,000 official pool tables around the world as official test tables, meaning every table has to have the exact same specs in order to be a Licenced Test Table. All tables have to be registered with my organization, fees are collected for the skill level testing, some of which are paid to the testing location, the remaining fees are paid in to register the players test score sheet for placement on a skill level list....and every test table has to pay a $500 annual license fee to my organization.....can you add up that....in case you can't....that's $500,000 annually in sanction fees alone.....and there's WAY more than enough tables in the market place to do just that! And why would any pool room in the world be interested in getting involved....because they make MONEY doing so. Still think I don't know how to market?
 
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chefjeff said:
Your proposed "product" sounds absolutely great; your marketing sucks, though. And isn't that the point of this thread, marketing pool?


How does one get 128 players at the same place numerous times a year?: With payouts big enough to make it profitable for each (or most, anyway) of those players. And where do the payouts come from?

Back to square one.


Jeff Livingston
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Want to know what that $500,000 is called?.....that's dead money sponsorship ....NOT dead money entry fees! But that's nothing when compared to where the real money will be coming from.....but, I'll just keep that to myself for now.
 
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chefjeff said:
Your proposed "product" sounds absolutely great; your marketing sucks, though. And isn't that the point of this thread, marketing pool?


How does one get 128 players at the same place numerous times a year?: With payouts big enough to make it profitable for each (or most, anyway) of those players. And where do the payouts come from?

Back to square one.


Jeff Livingston
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Oh yeah....and one more thing....no entry fees from the real Pros required!
 
I admit not having read this entire thread, so if I repeat what anyone suggested, I'm sorry for being too lazy to read.

I have been involved with pool for 50 years. I've owned a pool room and have learned a lot from it.

It a nutshell, and IMO, you don't to support anyone to grow pool's interest. In fact it is just the opposite. I've posted my thoughts in detail before and reposted it on occasion. I'm not going to go look up those threads now, but ... newcomers to pool find themselves in an uncomfortable environment trying to accomplish something that is so difficult that they may not even contact an object ball with the CB. This does not fair well in promoting new blood to the game. Only when everyone is doing it, then that will be a lot of people doing it. ( that sounded familiar)

The only thing I truly believe will work is pool rooms need to pop up in malls. with large picture windows so tons of people see the activity up close. Once people see this over and over, they will get involved.

Pool leagues have to start popping up in Jr. High schools and teams have to form so different schools play each other. Then, parents will get involved. They buy cues, accessories, even home tables.

Draw a comparison to kids skating, playing baseball or softball. Parents spend their weekends driving the kids around to the various games.

Once all that happens, then and only then will major sponsors pickup pro players and sponsor pro tournaments.

Certainly raising the tournament payouts are good for the players, but it has no effect on marketing. Its gotta happen the other way around.
 
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Self sustaining is the key.

We already know what doesn't work but there must be other places to look for answers.

How does the Euro Tour survive?

How do they do it in Asia?

What about Netflix or another online service as a sponsor?
 
realkingcobra said:
Really Jeff....do you actually think I don't have a plan for that already? Here's just ONE little part of my plans..... sanctioning 1,000 official pool tables around the world as official test tables, meaning every table has to have the exact same specs in order to be a Licenced Test Table. All tables have to be registered with my organization, fees are collected for the skill level testing, some of which are paid to the testing location, the remaining fees are paid in to register the players test score sheet for placement on a skill level list....and every test table has to pay a $500 annual license fee to my organization.....can you add up that....in case you can't....that's $500,000 annually in sanction fees alone.....and there's WAY more than enough tables in the market place to do just that! And why would any pool room in the world be interested in getting involved....because they make MONEY doing so. Still think I don't know how to market?
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I never said you didn't know how to market. I said you previous post didn't include that. The sucks remark was an off the hand diss...sorry.

You're getting there with more on your product reliability and quality. I like it very much. Not sure about the dollar amounts, but the concept is good.

But who's buying it?


Jeff Livingston
 
No one buys what isnt theirs.

chefjeff said:
I never said you didn't know how to market. I said you previous post didn't include that. The sucks remark was an off the hand diss...sorry.

You're getting there with more on your product reliability and quality. I like it very much. Not sure about the dollar amounts, but the concept is good.

But who's buying it?


Jeff Livingston
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Pool is such a fractured up affair with everyone trying to make a living at it that there really isnt anyone willing to buy into anything that they cant control at some point themselves. I'm almost of the opinion that the money person might not exist.

Which probably isnt the case. Probably its someone fishing for ideas so they can swoop in and take it over because....they have the money to do it. I went to a big trade show several years ago and asked a guy was what I consider a notable in the industry and I asked him......what are we going to do to save pool?

He said, I don't think Pool needs saving. This statement took me by surprise but now considering who he was he was right, he could have cared less as long as his end was covered. That's the way this entire Industry is.

Mom and Pops a bunch of them, no one giving ground.
 
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