Another Class 101 - How to play this?
- Thread starter klockdoc
- Start date
Jude Rosenstock said:
Why move a ball (the 7 ball) that doesn't really need to be moved?
Believe it or not, these safeties are not 100% safe. At the higher levels of competition there are many guys that would kick out of that safety with no problem. Just because you are going for ball in hand, doesn't mean thet you will get it every time.
If you contact the 5 correctly, you won't tie it up with the 8 ball at all. For me, that's a non-issue. As far as the safety goes, I would be more concerned with the 1 ball dropping and leaving myself tough on the 2 ball. The length of the carom shot is not an issue. An accurate hot on the contact point of the 5 ball is.
If my opponent is in the chair, I want to keep him there if I can. Who is to say that the table will be the same after he shoots? There is no need to play this safe and have him come to the table kicking, jacked up and messing up the lay of the table. (Remember... that happens too)
In this situation I go for it. I believe the percentage of getting out from here is just as even as allowing the opponent to the table after you broke up the problem cluster. JMO.
Blackjack said:
You have to read the post I was replying to in order to understand what I meant. I wouldn't want to disturb EITHER ball when executing my safety but if there is a ball I can afford to disturb, it's the 7-ball.
Alright, who's gonna break out the video camera this weekend and shoot the different options?!?! LOL
The way I see it, we are all basically saying the same thing because if you MISS the 2-way, you'll probably leave the same tough situation the "play safe" guys are aiming for in the first place.
If you miss the 1, you'll likely miss on the thick side of the 6, which will drop the 1 behind the 5/6 cluster off the side rail and roughly on the end rail. Your opponent won't have a jump or simple kick...he'll have to go at least 2 rails toward the 2 ball to get at the 1.
Something like this...
The way I see it, we are all basically saying the same thing because if you MISS the 2-way, you'll probably leave the same tough situation the "play safe" guys are aiming for in the first place.
If you miss the 1, you'll likely miss on the thick side of the 6, which will drop the 1 behind the 5/6 cluster off the side rail and roughly on the end rail. Your opponent won't have a jump or simple kick...he'll have to go at least 2 rails toward the 2 ball to get at the 1.
Something like this...
I had the same plan as Joey A before I saw his diagram. A+ Joey!!!
Russ......
Russ......
Going for the run or playing safe would be determined by how good I was playing that day. If I opted to play safe I would bank the 1 ball into the cluster so I wouldn't accidently make the 1.
I'm more towards the offensive side of this game. so if i had this rack this is probably what i would play. play the 3 in such a way that i leave myself a nice angle to just stun across or probably draw slightly to hit the side of the 6 leaving me with an open 5.
Well, that is IF i land where i expect the cue ball to go, which is almost parallel to the long rail. Either way even if i get snook behind the 6, the 5 would be in close proximity to that corner pocket that probably I'll try a one rail kick pot.
wan
klockdoc said:
Without looking at any other responses, here is my first thought:
Place the cueball at whatever angle will allow you to softly break up the 5/6 without knocking the 6 too close to the 8.
If executed fairly well, you have a Mickey Mouse out, and he is kicking at least 2 rails at the one. I'm sure other wills attempt to run out, and end up hooking themselves behind the 6...
Russ
steev said:
i like most of the idea but i wouldn't go for broke and try to make the 1 i'd try to break the cluster and sink the cueball between the 7and 3ball
klockdoc said:
Well. looks like this thread has run its course. Again, I would like to thank all those who contributed to the suggestions of how to play this layout.
Lots of good answers here. Some offensive, some defensive. Some both combined. Remember what I said at the beginning. This is what makes these threads so enjoyable. Sometimes your idea is what most agree with, other times it may be someone elses idea. But, all in all, it gives you an oppurtunity to view others views in comparison with what you suggested. Then you can decide..
When I first set this up, it was based on a situation similar to a layout that I had during play.
Blackjack has made a good suggestion. The one thing that bothers me with his play is that he immediately states in his post that the shot is risky. This means it would be real risky for most players considering his skill level.
Steev made a good addition to Blackjack's shot process by adding to keep the cue ball hidden behind the 3/7 so if the carom was missed, he would still be safe.
Neil pointed out that if the safe was played, caution had to be extended to making sure that the 3 was not interfered and then making it unmakeable.
A few of you went for the offensive game. My concerns are getting exactly where needed to break the 5/6 open, then making sure they roll into a position whereas they are makeable.
Now to Jude. Ironically, this is exactly how I played the shot. I played the 1 off the rail into the 5/6 and laid the cue ball up against the 3/7. The softer lag speed on the 1 allowed me to concentrate on my speed on the cue ball to insure the opponent was jacked up over the balls when kicking.
My opponent chose the 2 railer to try to hit the balls, but, jacked up, the cue ball squirted when he hit the first rail. BIH, the run was simple from there.
My thoughts on this are exactly how Jude explained it. Take the safe and break open the cluster. A player is shooting at a low percentage shot to try to kick at the one from this position.
Blackjack said it best with "the shot being risky" with the offensive play. I wanted to take this out of the equation. I felt the safe did just that.
Again, thanks to all for contributing. Hopefully answers here will help your thought process when similar situations come up.
Play well
I'm playing this Jude's way seven days a week. It sets a very big, almost escape-proof, trap. As for the carom, I love the creativity, but it's not a free shot. For any player less than pro level, I believe the carom one will hang as often it will go in. If the one hangs up, my oppnent can gain control of the table by kicking it in, and I'm not chancing it.
Well, after I looked at the other options, I see there is no reason to move the 3 and 7, and I in fact, give my opponent bridging room if I do so.
Here's my issue with the carom shot, on a tight table.
What if you hit it REALLY good, but JUST MISS the shot by a hair? Your opponent is left with a shot to run out by kicking the 1 ball in.
I think it is reckless to take any chance at leaving the 1 ball in the jaws. Blackjack sez: (And I love yah like a brudda, BJ!) That a lot of guys will be able to hit this kick on you if you play safe, then in my mind, if that is the caliber of player you are playing, then why take a chance at hitting it so good you leave it right in front of the pocket?
The safety + breakout is near 100% here. If my opponent hits it good enough to resafe me from where I am gonna leave him, then he/she deserves the win. But I doubt they will. They might hit the ball, but at the speed the CB will hit the 1 ball, even if he leaves me no shot, he is going to leave me a shot to freeze him to another ball, with most likely NO rails to make contact this time.
With where my opponent will be left, I doubt they are going to be able to hit the kick hard enough to create separation, as they will be jacked up over a ball, and having to deal with masse'ing the ball into the rail to even get a hit.
Russ
Here's my issue with the carom shot, on a tight table.
What if you hit it REALLY good, but JUST MISS the shot by a hair? Your opponent is left with a shot to run out by kicking the 1 ball in.
I think it is reckless to take any chance at leaving the 1 ball in the jaws. Blackjack sez: (And I love yah like a brudda, BJ!) That a lot of guys will be able to hit this kick on you if you play safe, then in my mind, if that is the caliber of player you are playing, then why take a chance at hitting it so good you leave it right in front of the pocket?
The safety + breakout is near 100% here. If my opponent hits it good enough to resafe me from where I am gonna leave him, then he/she deserves the win. But I doubt they will. They might hit the ball, but at the speed the CB will hit the 1 ball, even if he leaves me no shot, he is going to leave me a shot to freeze him to another ball, with most likely NO rails to make contact this time.
With where my opponent will be left, I doubt they are going to be able to hit the kick hard enough to create separation, as they will be jacked up over a ball, and having to deal with masse'ing the ball into the rail to even get a hit.
Russ
wan_lep said:
Too much movement of the CB from the 3. If you go an inch or two further, you are not going to be able to draw into those balls. If you get straighter than you want, you are going to have to pound the CB to be able to do anything with them, and even the smallest inaccuracy on your english will leave you in "recovery mode".
If you hit the 6 a fraction (literally....1/2 inch thinner..) thinner than you want, you are hooked. If you hit it 1/2 inch thinner on the other side, then you knock the 5 to the rail, and have to play safe.
If you absolutely HAVE to try to run out, then Blackjack's suggestion is the way to go. Your pattern virtually insures your opponent gets back to the table. If you HAVE to let your opponent back to the table, it would be better to have shot the safe with 4 more balls on the table... KnowwhadImean?
Russ
I'm late getting into this one, and, as usual with this intelligent crowd, all of the good shots have already been mentioned.
If I really had to win this rack, I would be playing the safety as tight as possible while trying to open up the 5/6 cluster and not make the 1. That might mean a two-rail bank in behind those balls, which I'm sure someone already mentioned, or something similar. I would obviously prefer to be frozen to the 3 or 7 or both, but I would put emphasis on not accidentally making or jawing the 1. Frozen is nice, but in this situation I don't think it buys you much because you're opponent is probably going to have to kick 2 rails regardless of whether he's frozen or not. Just get close enough to take out the jump and the natural 1-railer and you should be ok.
On the other hand, if I really wanted to run out, I would either play a shot similar to Blackjack's (although I would probably bank the 1 into the 5/6 off of 1 cushion, and I would leave the cb behind the 3/7 just in case) or I might be tempted to try to break up the 5/6 on the 2-ball shot. It looks like you can come in 3-rails behind that cluster (trying to hit the 5 at about 5 or 6 o'clock) and separate them without a great deal of risk. Worst case scenario is that you catch the 5 at 3 or 4 o'clock and get stuck behind it, but that would be pretty unlucky.
As I said, though, if I have to win, I'm probably playing safe here.
Thanks for the layout,
Aaron
If I really had to win this rack, I would be playing the safety as tight as possible while trying to open up the 5/6 cluster and not make the 1. That might mean a two-rail bank in behind those balls, which I'm sure someone already mentioned, or something similar. I would obviously prefer to be frozen to the 3 or 7 or both, but I would put emphasis on not accidentally making or jawing the 1. Frozen is nice, but in this situation I don't think it buys you much because you're opponent is probably going to have to kick 2 rails regardless of whether he's frozen or not. Just get close enough to take out the jump and the natural 1-railer and you should be ok.
On the other hand, if I really wanted to run out, I would either play a shot similar to Blackjack's (although I would probably bank the 1 into the 5/6 off of 1 cushion, and I would leave the cb behind the 3/7 just in case) or I might be tempted to try to break up the 5/6 on the 2-ball shot. It looks like you can come in 3-rails behind that cluster (trying to hit the 5 at about 5 or 6 o'clock) and separate them without a great deal of risk. Worst case scenario is that you catch the 5 at 3 or 4 o'clock and get stuck behind it, but that would be pretty unlucky.
As I said, though, if I have to win, I'm probably playing safe here.
Thanks for the layout,
Aaron
I am not sure, but I don't think the three railer off the 2 into the 5/6 is on, unless you come extremely close to the corner pocket. Either way, you'd have to put a lot of right english to get the CB to crawl out of the corner to hit the 5/6, and there is always the potential to remain hooked ehind either the 5/6 even if you manage the breakout. The extreme amount of english required along with a fairly low speed also makes an accurate 2nd rail contact point tough here. (Russ likey 3 Cushion! )
Russ
)Russ