anybody else use this system?

Man, that was close. For a while there I thought it was one of those damn aiming systems, and I would have had to blown my brains out. Wait a second. I'm out of ammo. I'll be right back.
Seriously though, that system can ballpark a shot for you but practicing those kicks until the subconscious mind remembers them is the best way.
 
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well crap, now i gotta go get my phone and type in that ugly video code... (can't youtube at work)...

[fiddles with phone]

yep, i've seen that vid before. there's a few good kicking systems by dr dave - but as they've said, each table plays different, so while these formulae will get you close all of the time, to really be accurate with them you have to really work the table before your game.
 
Learned this one a long time ago in Robert Byrnes book...very useful. Nice Vid by Dr. Dave again!
 
Very good topic.

I studied that info and other similar diamond systems about two months ago. At the time, was looking to seriously improve my kicks and banks. I drew their diagrams off on graph paper and went down to the pool hall. On nine foot tables, the systems played just right. I practiced on the same table probably ten times over a month or so, and the systems stayed right. I took good notes, and kept my graph paper table layouts updated at each session.

However, I went back last week, and the Plus 3 system was off by two or more diamonds for most shots. Back again last night, and same result....I could not duplicate the shots I had graphed out from the early sessions. Also, my favorite table no longer played "on system" for the benchmark 3 rail from the "corner 5" pocket. Before, the CB played right into the opposite corner, now, it's one diamond short.

As far as I can tell, all conditions were the same from the original sessions until now.......except weather and humidity. My early work was done during the dry New Mexico desert winter. In the last week or so, the beginnings of the monsoon season are upon us, and temperature and relative humidity are now quite high.

I'll stay on top of this, because I had become a big fan of the diamond systems. And if anyone is interested, I'll post the results.

Joe
 
Very good topic.

I studied that info and other similar diamond systems about two months ago. At the time, was looking to seriously improve my kicks and banks. I drew their diagrams off on graph paper and went down to the pool hall. On nine foot tables, the systems played just right. I practiced on the same table probably ten times over a month or so, and the systems stayed right. I took good notes, and kept my graph paper table layouts updated at each session.

However, I went back last week, and the Plus 3 system was off by two or more diamonds for most shots. Back again last night, and same result....I could not duplicate the shots I had graphed out from the early sessions. Also, my favorite table no longer played "on system" for the benchmark 3 rail from the "corner 5" pocket. Before, the CB played right into the opposite corner, now, it's one diamond short.

As far as I can tell, all conditions were the same from the original sessions until now.......except weather and humidity. My early work was done during the dry New Mexico desert winter. In the last week or so, the beginnings of the monsoon season are upon us, and temperature and relative humidity are now quite high.

I'll stay on top of this, because I had become a big fan of the diamond systems. And if anyone is interested, I'll post the results.

Joe

That may be true, but the system can be useful for more than kicking. You can use it to get shape with follow english. This isn't a great example, but the idea is the system doesn't have be exact for you to get shape on the 7 with follow english. You have 2 diamonds to work with between the 7 and 8, you don't have to get perfect.

If you have a decent understanding of this system and can control the speed of the shot, this should be an easy out.

CueTable Help

 
I came across this video a while ago and it has helped my game a little, not only on kicking but on shots using follow english to predict where the cue ball will end up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BsOZ09Nsyg
As mentioned above, it's been in print for quite a while. I'm pretty sure a version of it was in Willie Hoppe's "Billiards As It Should Be Played," which came out in 1941. The main part of learning the Plus System is getting a feel for how side spin will affect the angles. The system becomes very sensitive to spin as you shoot straighter into the first cushion.

Examples of using the system off a ball (as opposed to for a kick shot) are in Robert Byrne's "Standard Book of Pool and Billiards."
 
there is a much simpler way to get there!

The video is good, but there is a much simpler way of getting the same results.

I looked into all kinds of different diamond systems where you need to number the rails, add and subtract, etc. These systems are good, but I find them not to be to practical when it really matters.

How many times do you sit there and do calculations in the heat of a match?


No matter what system you use, it still needs to be adjusted for the stroke, and playing conditions. So you may as well keep it simple and use your judgement to make adjustments ( which you will have to do nomatter what).

So here is a very simple method that is super easy to remember, and you will have no trouble using anytime inany game.


I have never used wei table, mayben someone else can illustrate this?

Basically, you will have your cb and ob, and you need to make a 2 rail kick. All you will need to do is draw a straight line through the center of both balls, then find your midpoint on this line. You will already know aprox what line you will be shooting ( meaning which 2 rails you are kicking off of). Find the pocket that is between the 2 rails you are playing the cb off of. Now draw a line from your midpoint through the center of this pocket. Now just parallel shift this line over to your cueball. That is it! It sounds way more complicated then it is. You do this twice, and you will have it forever.

This is the same EXACT system shown in the video, just a LOT simpler and more user friendly. You also need a rollong cueball with running english. You will also find some positions that need a little compensation, just as the video.

But with this method, you can come up on the table, aproximate your midpoint use your cue to help visualize the line shift it over to the cueball and see your line in just a few seconds more while getting over your ball to shoot.

Another bonus is it keeps you in the visual (right brain) side of things which is best for keeping your mind in pool shooting mode. It does not disrupt your rythym and pull you out of the visual mode into your left brain side with math and calculations.

Jw
 
You make some good points.

We demonstrate the "midpoint parallel-shift two-rail kick system" (that you describe in your post) in detail on VEPS-IV (Shot #'s 514 and 515), and it does work well at some angles, but it requires much more "adjustment" than the Plus System.

In the video, the Plus System might seem a little complex, because we are showing every step in detail. However, after you practice it a while, the diamond numbers and aim come fairly quickly. No "calculations" are required, unlike with some forms of the Corner-5 system.

Regards,
Dave

The video is good, but there is a much simpler way of getting the same results.

I looked into all kinds of different diamond systems where you need to number the rails, add and subtract, etc. These systems are good, but I find them not to be to practical when it really matters.

How many times do you sit there and do calculations in the heat of a match?


No matter what system you use, it still needs to be adjusted for the stroke, and playing conditions. So you may as well keep it simple and use your judgement to make adjustments ( which you will have to do nomatter what).

So here is a very simple method that is super easy to remember, and you will have no trouble using anytime inany game.


I have never used wei table, mayben someone else can illustrate this?

Basically, you will have your cb and ob, and you need to make a 2 rail kick. All you will need to do is draw a straight line through the center of both balls, then find your midpoint on this line. You will already know aprox what line you will be shooting ( meaning which 2 rails you are kicking off of). Find the pocket that is between the 2 rails you are playing the cb off of. Now draw a line from your midpoint through the center of this pocket. Now just parallel shift this line over to your cueball. That is it! It sounds way more complicated then it is. You do this twice, and you will have it forever.

This is the same EXACT system shown in the video, just a LOT simpler and more user friendly. You also need a rollong cueball with running english. You will also find some positions that need a little compensation, just as the video.

But with this method, you can come up on the table, aproximate your midpoint use your cue to help visualize the line shift it over to the cueball and see your line in just a few seconds more while getting over your ball to shoot.

Another bonus is it keeps you in the visual (right brain) side of things which is best for keeping your mind in pool shooting mode. It does not disrupt your rythym and pull you out of the visual mode into your left brain side with math and calculations.

Jw
 
The video is good, but there is a much simpler way of getting the same results.

I looked into all kinds of different diamond systems where you need to number the rails, add and subtract, etc. These systems are good, but I find them not to be to practical when it really matters.

How many times do you sit there and do calculations in the heat of a match?


No matter what system you use, it still needs to be adjusted for the stroke, and playing conditions. So you may as well keep it simple and use your judgement to make adjustments ( which you will have to do nomatter what).

So here is a very simple method that is super easy to remember, and you will have no trouble using anytime inany game.


I have never used wei table, mayben someone else can illustrate this?

Basically, you will have your cb and ob, and you need to make a 2 rail kick. All you will need to do is draw a straight line through the center of both balls, then find your midpoint on this line. You will already know aprox what line you will be shooting ( meaning which 2 rails you are kicking off of). Find the pocket that is between the 2 rails you are playing the cb off of. Now draw a line from your midpoint through the center of this pocket. Now just parallel shift this line over to your cueball. That is it! It sounds way more complicated then it is. You do this twice, and you will have it forever.

This is the same EXACT system shown in the video, just a LOT simpler and more user friendly. You also need a rollong cueball with running english. You will also find some positions that need a little compensation, just as the video.

But with this method, you can come up on the table, aproximate your midpoint use your cue to help visualize the line shift it over to the cueball and see your line in just a few seconds more while getting over your ball to shoot.

Another bonus is it keeps you in the visual (right brain) side of things which is best for keeping your mind in pool shooting mode. It does not disrupt your rythym and pull you out of the visual mode into your left brain side with math and calculations.

Jw

I've tried that before and I have two questions.

Where do you line up on the pocket, the middle of the opening of the pocket or the imaginary diamond behind the pocket?

Maybe I'm just uncoordinated, but I have trouble keeping the cue exactly parallel. Is there an easy way to do that or is it just by feel?

Thanks
 
I've tried that before and I have two questions.

Where do you line up on the pocket, the middle of the opening of the pocket or the imaginary diamond behind the pocket?

Maybe I'm just uncoordinated, but I have trouble keeping the cue exactly parallel. Is there an easy way to do that or is it just by feel?

Thanks

I line up directly through the center of the pocket, though I suppose you could use another variation if you adjusted your stroke accordingly.

I find in just about ANY rail system there has to be some adjustment for your stroke (you either have to adjust the system aiming point, or adjust your stroke to the system). Usually you set up an ideal or reference shot and fine tune your stroke and cue tip placement untill you get a reference the reference points to match up (meaning your stroke AND the systems aiming point to get in tune for consistant repeatable results). Usually it is a very minimal adjustment, but it is good to really know what kind of cueball hit and speed combonation will get the system to work reliably.

This is true of ALL rail systems. Even a simple one rail kick from a side to a corner pocket needs this to be done. You can hit one of many different points on the rail to get the same end result, depending on what speed and cueball combination you use. That is why a sysytem would be called a running english sytem, etc.

As far as the parallel shift, I just use my cue to help visualize it. Yes it is prob a feel thing. It may take a little bit of practice. Often, I won't even really take my cue and physically move it to the exact line from the cueball. If I am standing mostly upright, I hold my cue above the table on my midpoint line and can kind of just do a lot of the shifting in my head. It helps to make sure you are seeing the whole table as a backdrop and mentally put your lines on the table, instead of focusing solely on your lines you are drawing. I like being able to hold my cue in my field of vision and use it to draw a mental line where I need it.


I think all systems can be helpful, but in the end it all has to come down to a feel thing. I think systems are a great thing to learn, and can help you understand how things relate to one another and to illustrate concepts. They take the guesswork out of a lot of it and makes it much easier to quantify and explain it to someone else. But no matter how accurate a system may be, you MUST have a repeatable stroke, and be able to adjust for different conditions and situations. There is no getting out of that.

I mean somewhere along the line you prob learned some sort of aiming system. Maybe it was a ghost ball, etc. You may have had to actually go up and physically sight up the ob with your cue on almost every shot. Then at some point, you found you could trust your judgement better and did not feel the need to do this on every shot anymore. The system is still valid, but your need to rely on it will dimish.

Pocketing balls straight to the hole is usually a much higher priority and more common than kicking at a target off 2 rails. Therfore, it will take a bit more time to really become an important factor for most people. You will not practice this as often.

Just my opinion


Jw
 
I liked the sound of the plus system when I first saw it on one of Dr. Dave's sample videos. But when I went to try it, I was a little disappointed. Shooting the ball through the diamonds wasn't working out so I switched measuring parallel to the diamonds. That also didn't work out. Basically all my shots go a full diamond long on my local tables. I either misunderstand the system (pretty sure I don't) or my tables as weird (pretty sure they're not) or ... something else. Dunno what. Anyway, I do like the simplicity of it.

I guess the rails could bring the ball longer than typical rails? For reference, if I need to make a 1 rail kick where the angle in mirrors the angle out... I need a little (not a lot) of high right spin. Like very conservative high right, it's barely there. That's at what I think of as 3 (on a scale to 10) speed-wise.
 
Very good topic.

I studied that info and other similar diamond systems about two months ago. At the time, was looking to seriously improve my kicks and banks. I drew their diagrams off on graph paper and went down to the pool hall. On nine foot tables, the systems played just right. I practiced on the same table probably ten times over a month or so, and the systems stayed right. I took good notes, and kept my graph paper table layouts updated at each session.

However, I went back last week, and the Plus 3 system was off by two or more diamonds for most shots. Back again last night, and same result....I could not duplicate the shots I had graphed out from the early sessions. Also, my favorite table no longer played "on system" for the benchmark 3 rail from the "corner 5" pocket. Before, the CB played right into the opposite corner, now, it's one diamond short.

As far as I can tell, all conditions were the same from the original sessions until now.......except weather and humidity. My early work was done during the dry New Mexico desert winter. In the last week or so, the beginnings of the monsoon season are upon us, and temperature and relative humidity are now quite high.

I'll stay on top of this, because I had become a big fan of the diamond systems. And if anyone is interested, I'll post the results.

Joe
There's a couple of things that might be going on. First of all determining your CB location. Ceulemans suggests a very simple method. Draw a line parallel to the short rail. Where the line intersects the long rail is your location. I use this as well as drawing a line from the corner diamond (missing on a pool table) through the center of the CB depending on the phase of the moon.

Condition of the balls, cloth and table are critical in kicking. My suggestion is to try to control what you can and that would be practice on one particular table. If available use cleaned balls and cloth. Practice the system by the book then determine the adjustments to make it work. Then get it mastered on this table. Now you'll have a standard from which to make simple adjustments on any table you play on.
 
I liked the sound of the plus system when I first saw it on one of Dr. Dave's sample videos. But when I went to try it, I was a little disappointed. Shooting the ball through the diamonds wasn't working out so I switched measuring parallel to the diamonds. That also didn't work out. Basically all my shots go a full diamond long on my local tables. I either misunderstand the system (pretty sure I don't) or my tables as weird (pretty sure they're not) or ... something else. Dunno what. Anyway, I do like the simplicity of it.

I guess the rails could bring the ball longer than typical rails? For reference, if I need to make a 1 rail kick where the angle in mirrors the angle out... I need a little (not a lot) of high right spin. Like very conservative high right, it's barely there. That's at what I think of as 3 (on a scale to 10) speed-wise.
CreeDo You just have to have faith. The system works. You just have to work it out. It's very hard to explain the spin but you aren't spinning the ball enough if you're going long. Concentrate on pinpointing the exact offset. There's also adjustments as you go down the rail. For instance from diamond 6, going into 1/2 diamond the count is 1 diamond instead of 2. Going into the first diamond gives you 2 count. From diamond 4 into the corner gives you 10 and from 5 into the corner gives you 1/2 diamond.

This video has been shown before and many think its luck but he simply played the system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CR_IBLI8us
 
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I liked the sound of the plus system when I first saw it on one of Dr. Dave's sample videos. But when I went to try it, I was a little disappointed. Shooting the ball through the diamonds wasn't working out so I switched measuring parallel to the diamonds. That also didn't work out. Basically all my shots go a full diamond long on my local tables. I either misunderstand the system (pretty sure I don't) or my tables as weird (pretty sure they're not) or ... something else. Dunno what. Anyway, I do like the simplicity of it.
Creedo,

The Plus System (as with any kick/bank system) requires "calibration" on a particular table. You should use the Plus-Five reference shot (see the video) to figure out the reference speed and English you need on your table. If the shot goes long, you are using too much speed and/or not enough running English (see the video for more info). Also, as your aim point gets closer to the pockets along the short rail, you need to make adjustments, as shown in the video."

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
I line up directly through the center of the pocket, though I suppose you could use another variation if you adjusted your stroke accordingly.

I find in just about ANY rail system there has to be some adjustment for your stroke (you either have to adjust the system aiming point, or adjust your stroke to the system). Usually you set up an ideal or reference shot and fine tune your stroke and cue tip placement untill you get a reference the reference points to match up (meaning your stroke AND the systems aiming point to get in tune for consistant repeatable results). Usually it is a very minimal adjustment, but it is good to really know what kind of cueball hit and speed combonation will get the system to work reliably.

This is true of ALL rail systems. Even a simple one rail kick from a side to a corner pocket needs this to be done. You can hit one of many different points on the rail to get the same end result, depending on what speed and cueball combination you use. That is why a sysytem would be called a running english sytem, etc.

As far as the parallel shift, I just use my cue to help visualize it. Yes it is prob a feel thing. It may take a little bit of practice. Often, I won't even really take my cue and physically move it to the exact line from the cueball. If I am standing mostly upright, I hold my cue above the table on my midpoint line and can kind of just do a lot of the shifting in my head. It helps to make sure you are seeing the whole table as a backdrop and mentally put your lines on the table, instead of focusing solely on your lines you are drawing. I like being able to hold my cue in my field of vision and use it to draw a mental line where I need it.


I think all systems can be helpful, but in the end it all has to come down to a feel thing. I think systems are a great thing to learn, and can help you understand how things relate to one another and to illustrate concepts. They take the guesswork out of a lot of it and makes it much easier to quantify and explain it to someone else. But no matter how accurate a system may be, you MUST have a repeatable stroke, and be able to adjust for different conditions and situations. There is no getting out of that.

I mean somewhere along the line you prob learned some sort of aiming system. Maybe it was a ghost ball, etc. You may have had to actually go up and physically sight up the ob with your cue on almost every shot. Then at some point, you found you could trust your judgement better and did not feel the need to do this on every shot anymore. The system is still valid, but your need to rely on it will dimish.

Pocketing balls straight to the hole is usually a much higher priority and more common than kicking at a target off 2 rails. Therfore, it will take a bit more time to really become an important factor for most people. You will not practice this as often.

Just my opinion


Jw

That's interesting. I've been lining up on the corner pocket as if it was a 3 cushion table with no pocket, finding the corner of the table.

I play a lot of equal offense when I'm playing at home and if I miss a ball before I finish a rack I continue running balls until all 15 are down, trying not to miss another ball. I count a successful two rail kick as a shot not missed, which is a way to practice kicks and keep it interesting.
 
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