APA call at cities. U be the judge

More info

In response to inquiries:

1. The same card was used throughout the tournament and accepted. Paperwork showing our shooter won a few matches proves the wins, and referees were around when he won these matches. Therefore, precedence was set. To make it worse, he used the same card to mark the pocket for his first win (not a foul). The second win, or game where the call was made, he used the same card, but it is a foul this time. Cool huh?

2. Granted he should have used something less questionable. We all agree.

3. Here is the best part, it was the league operator that made the call. Every other person, referee, or human being agreed the call could only have been made if the card were still on the table. It wasn't, apparently the operator has something against our team, and we lost. So it is of no value to argue the call. The team is local to us, we could replay at a neutral location, but of course, that is too logical and will not happen.
 
This problem is easily resolved for less than $10. Buy one of the markers shown in the JPG below. The team together funds one of the below (very cheap option), or the individual buys one for him/herself and lends it when necessary:

http://www.pooldawg.com/product/pool-table-pocket-and-ball-markers

Use of one of these will stop any more ambiguity about pocket marking, ever. PERIOD.
No more pissing and moaning from opponents.

You can get deluxe type ones here as well:

http://www.ozonebilliards.com/pocketmarkers.html
 

Attachments

  • 8&9.jpg
    8&9.jpg
    8.4 KB · Views: 520
That is just crazy!!!

NJ_Qball said:
In response to inquiries:

1. The same card was used throughout the tournament and accepted. Paperwork showing our shooter won a few matches proves the wins, and referees were around when he won these matches. Therefore, precedence was set. To make it worse, he used the same card to mark the pocket for his first win (not a foul). The second win, or game where the call was made, he used the same card, but it is a foul this time. Cool huh?

2. Granted he should have used something less questionable. We all agree.

3. Here is the best part, it was the league operator that made the call. Every other person, referee, or human being agreed the call could only have been made if the card were still on the table. It wasn't, apparently the operator has something against our team, and we lost. So it is of no value to argue the call. The team is local to us, we could replay at a neutral location, but of course, that is too logical and will not happen.
Click to expand...

Javier - hate to see this crap, since it is just plain WRONG.

And I would say that your responses are just wrong, but I can understand the frustration of just trying to be the bigger person/team and find a way to accept the situation. It shows your a better person. I would not be so nice if this happened to me.

#1 - Does not need to be stated - It does not matter, due to my statement on response #2.

#2 - Nothing questionable about a hotel room key card. It isn't money. Isn't even close to being seen as money. The National APA rule was written for a reason, and the LO's decision/interpretation of the rule does not follow the reasoning behind the rule's creation. Ask the National Office.

#3 - LO was wrong, no reason to replay, since your team WON - no questions on that. Always a reason to argue a call, otherwise you accept it, and it will just happen again to another team down the road. And the call was WRONG - accepting it makes it RIGHT. Don't accept it!! LO might not reverse the decision, but exhaust all your options.

I strongly suggest that you call the National Office and let them know about the situation. What is the worst that can happen? They say NO? Well, you are already there, so no harm in that. Ban you? Yeah, that is possible(seen crazier actions), but you need to do what you(and your team) can live with. If you can walk away from this with a smile on your face, then you probably should. I just couldn't do that. I am stubborn, and would fight on principle alone. If you are seen as a doormat, you will always be a doormat - I wouldn't give the LO the satisfaction(or my money anymore).

I truly hope everything works out for you and your team!!!!

All I know is that my team is playing in the regional this weekend, and all of these threads have got me ready to SQUASH BS. More Rule cheaters come out at this time to steal the Vegas trip, and with all of these APA posts I am ready. Been playing APA since '90, and do not plan on getting beat by a cheater.

Can you mark your pocket with a MAC11?

Michael
 
The APA Official Team Manual rule on marking is really quite simple and lenient.

"12. HOW TO WIN

You have won the game when all the balls of your numerical group have been
pocketed and you have legally pocketed the 8-ball in a properly marked pocket without scratching. To properly mark the pocket, a coaster or some other reasonable marker (to avoid confusion, we do not recommend marking the pocket with chalk) must be placed next to the pocket the 8-ball is intended to enter. Both teams may use the same marker. Only one marker should be on the table. However, if more than one marker is on the table, as long as you clearly mark the pocket where you intend to pocket the 8-ball you have properly marked the pocket. If the marker is already at the intended pocket from a previous attempt or game, it is not necessary for you to touch it, pick it up, or reposition it."

As TimKrazyMon said, it may be in the local league bylaws rather than in the Official Team Manual.

I always say that anytime a player calls you on a APA rule, you should make them show it to you in writing in the APA rules or the local bylaws. You will be amazed how many APA "rules" are from some other league or parallel universe.

On the other hand, if a rule is somewhere in writing, then I don't blame the other team for using it to win. I remember hearing a quote sometime that was attributed to a pro player that went something like "learn the rules; play by the rules; win with the rules". You can call them losers if you want, but when the money is on the line you should use any legal means to get your team a win.

That's not to say that this ruling is right -- it was stupid. A credit card is not money any more than an APA coin is money.
 
What a screwy call....makes no sense. Wonder if a check book would gotten the same result??

This is just weird.
 
I've played in leagues and tournaments for over 25 years (none of which were APA), and have never been challenged by my opponent as to which pocket I was calling the eight ball. Normally I just point the tip of my cue towards the pocket I'm calling (and maybe mutter 'Corner' or 'Side') and shoot it in. On bank shots I pat my hand over the pocket. My opponent pays attention to my call and, if I make it, we shake hands.

Seems like the APA is over complicating things....or are providing players with the opportunity to take legitimate wins away from their opponents based on a technicality.

Back in the day (mid-eighties) a league I played on required us to call kisses. Lots of arguments and an occasional fight broke out. Then they changed the rule to call pocket, and all that nonsense ended. Funny how simple solutions resolve so many issues.
 
Last edited:
Total idiocy. Post the names of both the other teams members and the LO. The only way to stop this is to confront it head on.

Let us all know who to talk to.
 
beleary said:
I've played in leagues and tournaments for over 25 years (none of which were APA), and have never been challenged by my opponent as to which pocket I was calling the eight ball. Normally I just point the tip of my cue towards the pocket I'm calling (and maybe mutter 'Corner' or 'Side') and shoot it in. On bank shots I pat my hand over the pocket. My opponent pays attention to my call and, if I make it, we shake hands.

Seems like the APA is over complicating things....or are providing players with the opportunity to take legitimate wins away from their opponents based on a technicality.

Back in the day (mid-eighties) a league I played on required us to call kisses. Lots of arguments and an occasional fight broke out. Then they changed the rule to call pocket, and all that nonsense ended. Funny how simple solutions resolve so many issues.
Click to expand...

And that's also why marking the pocket is a good requirement. Takes a lot of the guessing and finger pointing out of it. The purpose of it is to make sure that it's absolutely clear what pocket you are aiming at. I can even understand no chalk or money to mark. But to say that a credit card is not allowed is just ridiculous. If it's obvious by your mark, which pocket you are shooting at then that's all that matters. Anyone that tries to win on that kind of technicality is a nit, pu$$y, a@@h01e, etc, etc.
 
To or three weeks ago my opponent forgot to mark her pocket. It wasn't an easy or clear shoot, but from observing her preshot I knew where she was trying to go. She made the shot and then her captain pointed out she did not mark the shot and actually lost the game. So I said take it. Take the game. I knew that was the pocket she was shooting for, she made the shoot, therefore she won.

Granted this was the first game in a regular season match witch i ended up winning.

As for the scenario above I would be mortified if my team challenged based on a credit card and would certainly stop them. I find such people obnoxious and repugnant.

Maybe I am just lucky to be part of our local, reasonable, friendly, APA
 
Last edited:
USING MONEY - in many areas the local liquor control authority goes crazy over any indication (however innocuous) of gambling. The "no money on the table" is to protect the location owner's liquor license. Borderline silly I know. Next election day vote in a different city government to make some changes if you don't agree with the local liquor laws. People equating credit cards with currency (in this context) is also dumb.

MARKING THE POCKET - necessary because so many times in the past losers would claim "yeah, you said corner but you never said which corner" regardless of how obvious the table lay out was. So APA decided to require the physical marking of a specific pocket with an item (no chalk, no weapons). Common sense required, sometimes that's the problem.

As for the details of this specific situation - what is the name of the LO? What are the names of the two teams? What are the names of the two players? What date did this happen?

And in my APA area you are not "guilty until proven innocent". You and your opponent are waiting for the LO to learn both sides of the story and then make a decision.

Some forum contributors always want to post all of these horror stories but no one ever wants to provide any info that can be verified.

Hope everyone did well in their local tournaments. Or "good luck" if yours is still coming up. The four teams from my area have received their travel money and are packing their bags.
 
Last edited:
I think that once it gets to this point, The APA should provide the marker for thses games
 
hang-the-9 said:
You can make a good argument here that a credit card is not "money". Can you use a picture of a chalk to mark the pocket? That's pretty much what a credit card be to real money. It represents it, but is not the item.

APA is a bar league, played mostly by bar players who refuse logic and "real" rules used by the pros. I am proud to say I have never had the begginging of a possibilty of a thought to join it.
Click to expand...

Can you put a bar of gold on the table? Greenbacks represent the real money...gold (uh, well they used to until we went off the gold standard).

Marking your pocket is so FFFFFFFFFFFF_N!! STUPID anyway. With the availability of cheap camera these day, every match should be recorded.
 
It appears the APA is adamant about shooting itself in the foot and promoting flat out cheating.....this is an embarrassing thread for the APA, one in an overflowing river of BS....

Come on guys, step up and make things better....

Used to play APA, we never marked pockets in most of the matches.....most matches, the first player would get to the 8, ask if he had to mark that corner pocket, we'd say no, and everyone would act like a human being, call their pocket, and there was never an issue.....

Now, the other 25% of the time, douchebaggery took over and the other team would make us mark pockets, just hoping to steal a game because somebody didn't mark a pocket, or used money, or some other crap....sad, really sad....
 
ronhudson said:
The APA Official Team Manual rule on marking is really quite simple and lenient.

"12. HOW TO WIN

You have won the game when all the balls of your numerical group have been
pocketed and you have legally pocketed the 8-ball in a properly marked pocket without scratching. To properly mark the pocket, a coaster or some other reasonable marker (to avoid confusion, we do not recommend marking the pocket with chalk) must be placed next to the pocket the 8-ball is intended to enter. Both teams may use the same marker. Only one marker should be on the table. However, if more than one marker is on the table, as long as you clearly mark the pocket where you intend to pocket the 8-ball you have properly marked the pocket. If the marker is already at the intended pocket from a previous attempt or game, it is not necessary for you to touch it, pick it up, or reposition it."

As TimKrazyMon said, it may be in the local league bylaws rather than in the Official Team Manual.

I always say that anytime a player calls you on a APA rule, you should make them show it to you in writing in the APA rules or the local bylaws. You will be amazed how many APA "rules" are from some other league or parallel universe.

On the other hand, if a rule is somewhere in writing, then I don't blame the other team for using it to win. I remember hearing a quote sometime that was attributed to a pro player that went something like "learn the rules; play by the rules; win with the rules". You can call them losers if you want, but when the money is on the line you should use any legal means to get your team a win.

That's not to say that this ruling is right -- it was stupid. A credit card is not money any more than an APA coin is money.
Click to expand...


In "the Official APA Game rules Booklet" that I have for 2009 and 2010 it states exactly the same on pg 9 section 11. It does not mention anything about money and also just suggests not using chalk to avoid confusion. And reading the rules it does not mention that it is lose of game if you do.
 
This thread makes me want to kick my dog. The opposing team has ruined my day. The league operator has ruined tomorrow and the OP who refuses to do anything so that some other teams can get ass raped as well has ruined the day after tomorrow for me.

Thanks a lot guys.

P.S. I don't have a dog.
 
What a jackass call. Just tell him the credit card was expired and see if it works like money!
 
A way to create even more confusion!!!

tigerseye said:
What is a bylaw?
Click to expand...

Many of the time that is exactly what it is. Laws/rules created by the Local League Operator in his/her APA Franchise in order to create rules specific to his/her league. They are modifications and additions that are supposed to allow the local league to run more smoothly, due to concerns seen locally that are not covered in the National APA Handbook. They are used to clarify broader National APA rules for specific Local APA Franchise play, and should be limited to only a few areas - BUT they should never go against the NATIONAL APA rules - only specify those rules for local play.

The problems occur when these rules get to be too much, and actually hinder the playing of the game. Rules are made to hopefully stop or limit cheating and bad sportsmanship, but eventually they become the tool that cheaters use to manipulate the system. And this unfair usage can also include the SHADY League Operators who can and will use them to control how they want their league to operate - which teams/players they want to see flourish in the system. Sometimes RULES can become too much, and that is what I have seen posted here recently.

Until people take their money elsewhere, and by word of mouth have others do the same, it is a vicious cycle which will continue to happen.

JMHO

Michael
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top