How can it be any worse than 50/50 ?
In a nutshell, big woop.
You'all make it way to big a deal. You have better odds on a shot in 8 ball after the break than making a ball on the break in 9 ball and being able to see the 1.
APA Masters Division
- Thread starter stlerdave
- Start date
How can it be any worse than 50/50 ?
In a nutshell, big woop.
You'all make it way to big a deal. You have better odds on a shot in 8 ball after the break than making a ball on the break in 9 ball and being able to see the 1.
How does it make any difference when both players are playing by the same set of rules? I believe the APA rule is in effect to minimize the number of run outs and help the weaker player a bit. If you don't like APA rules, don't play APA, it's that simple. I have no problem with any game of any kind if both players are operating with the same set of rules and I have a choice of whether I want to play or not.
It's strange. You have this thread complaining about the APA rule relating to the break that may somewhat inhibit runouts and give the opponent a chance to get to the table. There is the other thread that describes the fatal flaw in pool as having games that are too easy and one player may have to sit and watch the other player run out without a chance to play. I think too many people just like to ***** and complain.
It's strange. You have this thread complaining about the APA rule relating to the break that may somewhat inhibit runouts and give the opponent a chance to get to the table. There is the other thread that describes the fatal flaw in pool as having games that are too easy and one player may have to sit and watch the other player run out without a chance to play. I think too many people just like to ***** and complain.
If making one ball on the break and getting stuck were really so devastating, we should see a lot more safes played right after a dry break.
Something like this:
Not that it never happens, but it's fairly rare.
Something like this:
1. Player A breaks dry.
2. Player B says, "Aha. I can pick my suit, make a ball, and then play safe. My opponent will be in the dreaded APA-one-ball-down-without-a-clear-shot trap. It's the Kobayashi Maru of pool!
3. Player B collects the cash.
2. Player B says, "Aha. I can pick my suit, make a ball, and then play safe. My opponent will be in the dreaded APA-one-ball-down-without-a-clear-shot trap. It's the Kobayashi Maru of pool!
3. Player B collects the cash.
Not that it never happens, but it's fairly rare.
Nobody's saying it's devastating or can't be dealt with. It's not the end of the world. Players can handle it. Good players can handle it better.
The question is, is 8 ball really a better game with take-what-you-make? Is it more fair, or at least, more fun?
In my opinion no. Even if a player only gets screwed 1 time out of 100, that's one time too many.
The same reasoning applies to 8-on-the-break winning. Yes it's rare and won't be the deciding factor in most sets. But having it in there doesn't add anything to 8 ball.
The question is, is 8 ball really a better game with take-what-you-make? Is it more fair, or at least, more fun?
In my opinion no. Even if a player only gets screwed 1 time out of 100, that's one time too many.
The same reasoning applies to 8-on-the-break winning. Yes it's rare and won't be the deciding factor in most sets. But having it in there doesn't add anything to 8 ball.
Eh, it just doesnt matter. I wouldnt dwell on it.
I mean geez, you a make a ball and take the other set....you just gave your opponemt a 1 ball spot.
How much does that matter ?
Yea....about the same as the other.
I mean geez, you a make a ball and take the other set....you just gave your opponemt a 1 ball spot.
How much does that matter ?
Yea....about the same as the other.
But wait, these complaints always seem to come from people who despise handicapping....except when they go to negotiate a spot for a gambling match. Spotting one whole ball would be devastating, to all the runout players that play league. Even masters..
These threads never fail to amuse me.
i agree with your view.
i play in 3 leagues , apa, napa , and an in house money league using the bcapl format.
i like the challenge of taking what you make better than an open break. i guess i am just different than most players, i dont like rules that make it easier to win, wheres the fun in that ? open after the break, ball in hand anywhere on the table if your opponent scratches on the break just makes it too easy to win in my book.
people bash the apa for the slop factor, they say it makes it too easy for bangers to win.let me tell you , i have more break and runs playing in the so called serious players leagues than i do in the apa. why ? simply because of the open break rule.
7 and the breaks
Creedo...I'll take 7 and the breaks when i see you this Thursday! DOH!!
Creedo...I'll take 7 and the breaks when i see you this Thursday! DOH!!
apa masters
Well, it went good. It wasnt like I thought, no instructional at all just regular tourney. League operator put up $320 cash prize and we did use regular apa rules, surprised. I ended up in the top 8 and we all split $40 each. Sunday nite tourney was starting and they just split it up. Smoked my 1st match 7-0 in 9 ball which I never play and better start! Then won my next two matchs. Once I stopped being nervous I was playing pretty well and one match we played 5 8ball games in less than 10 innings me winning 4-1. For me running out twice I was happy. Hope I can get back to playing in some of these events. I think the guys I played were all SL6. Snapped 9 on the break to win last match, guy wasnt happy!:grin:
Well, it went good. It wasnt like I thought, no instructional at all just regular tourney. League operator put up $320 cash prize and we did use regular apa rules, surprised. I ended up in the top 8 and we all split $40 each. Sunday nite tourney was starting and they just split it up. Smoked my 1st match 7-0 in 9 ball which I never play and better start! Then won my next two matchs. Once I stopped being nervous I was playing pretty well and one match we played 5 8ball games in less than 10 innings me winning 4-1. For me running out twice I was happy. Hope I can get back to playing in some of these events. I think the guys I played were all SL6. Snapped 9 on the break to win last match, guy wasnt happy!:grin:
On the contrary! Making the 8 ball on the break is a SKILL. The best way to do this is by hitting the 2nd ball. Of course when you go for the 2nd ball you are favoring a defensive game. It does add to the game as it may influence how the breaker decides to break. If the incentive is there to make the 8 ball (which I have done plenty in my lifetime), then I think this is a good thing for 8 ball.
Even if you spend all day breaking that way, if it only goes in like 1-in-30 tries, then you have to admit there's some luck involved too. Kind of like how if you gave me enough tries at hitting the bullseye in darts blindfolded, I'd eventually hit it... but I can't claim it was "skill" even though I did it on purpose.
Let's say it really were a 100% controllable skilled shot. Then some pro works hard to figure it out and is able to do it consistently, sort of like making the 2nd ball in 10 ball. Say they get that 8 in the same pocket 70% of the time. Now how do you like it?
But, we both know 70% will never happen no matter how much you practice. Which illustrates the difference between adding "fake difficulty" to a game (aka luck) and "real difficulty".
Real difficulty can be influenced by lots of practice/skill.
With fake difficulty, the outcome just isn't influenced much (if at all) by these things.
It just happens.
The only reason we accept it, is because it happens rarely.
Oh really? I'm sandbaggin? I'll let my last season's and this season's record speak for itself.
I'll play you even...I'm willing to pay a fee just so to see, in action, how good the game of the "the best player in the room" on Thursday nights really is.
I swore I saw it when Keith gave me last 2, wild 8 and the breaks. Prove me wrong.
I'll play you even...I'm willing to pay a fee just so to see, in action, how good the game of the "the best player in the room" on Thursday nights really is.
I swore I saw it when Keith gave me last 2, wild 8 and the breaks. Prove me wrong.
Only once you stop sandbagging, Secret Seven
I disagree Ray. If making the 8 on the break were really a skill, don't you think the pro players would have acquired that skill? If you look at the statistics, that viewpoint is not born out (you can look at the "stats" from the IPT, which played thousands of games of 8-ball). The pros don't make the 8 on the break with any kind of regularity in professional tournaments.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
back in the mid 80s i was playing cheap 5 and 10 games in a bar. after everyone got tired of me taking their money and left an old man who had been sitting in the corner for a few hours watching the action came up and challenged me. we agreed 5.00 a game. i broke and ran 6 balls and then he ran out.
he made the 8 on the break 5 games in a row before i pulled up and quit on him. he knew what he was doing, aint no man that lucky to make the 8 five breaks in a row. there is no telling how many times he would have made it if i had not quit on him.
Actually, if you make a ball and take the other set, you just gave YOURSELF the advantage. You only have to make one extra ball but you have more balls to use to play position, he has less AND you have less of his balls in your way for the entire rack and you have more balls in his way if you play a safe early.
That's because they never used the 2nd ball break. These pros were smashing and going for the runout. Perhaps you did not read my post about playing defensive with the 2nd ball break.
I think if it goes in 1 out of 30 times it is skill. Players who don't use this method most likely make the 8 ball once in 300 tries.
I have made the 8 ball twice in a row on the break hitting the 2nd ball. The cueball slams back into back the rack after hitting two rails and pushes the 8 ball towards the side pocket.
Now "you and I both know" that you never get consistent racks in APA 8 ball, so in a sense there is some luck that you get a good rack.
At the Magic Cue in Germantown they started a jar with money. $5 a rack to try and make the 8 ball on the break. There was close to $200 in the jar when Buck Fisher (used to be one of the best players in MD) stepped up and took the jar after about 20 breaks. He hit the 2nd ball first too. Now go ahead and tell me this was all luck.
Way back when virtual pool first came out, Mike Sigel (may have bee Miserack) demonstrated how to break in 8 ball. Of course there was a little segment of hitting the 2nd ball first and making the 8 ball.
You can believe that it is all luck, but there are thousands of pool players who will disagree with you, including me.
Regards
Pretty simple really...runouts on a bar box would be too easy if you had your choice. Its only a race to 5 in 8 ball. The APA is a handicapped league. There is no cap to how good a 7 can be. Trust me, my break and run percentage would go up a ton if I had choice after making a ball on the break. That would skew the system even further to the strongest players. This is not what the APA was shooting for. The breaker is not punished. That is your opinion, and represents a certain perspective that I just don't share.
I ask you to consider this: say I make a ball on my break, like a particular group, and having my choice, select that group and run out. Yay for me!! Then I break and don't make a ball, and my opponent runs the set out. Remember it is winner breaks, and a short race. The "take what you make" idea is exactly like the concept of alternating break. It is a method of making the likelihood of running big packages smaller, thus allowing more pool to be played. The rules are the same for both players. If you know how to play 8 ball correctly, it is VERY rare that you have absolutely no play after making only 1 type of balls. Sure, you may not get the superior layout, but with a little creativity and intelligence, you can turn a game around on one shot. You can tie up your opponent, kick safe, play a huge variety of safes, etc. I think if you know how to play, it doesn't make much difference which rule set you use.
KMRUNOUT