APA Masters Division

[KMRUNOUT]

I disagree Ray. If making the 8 on the break were really a skill, don't you think the pro players would have acquired that skill? If you look at the statistics, that viewpoint is not born out (you can look at the "stats" from the IPT, which played thousands of games of 8-ball). The pros don't make the 8 on the break with any kind of regularity in professional tournaments.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

This logic does not compute. 2 and 3 rail bank shots are a skill, no? You see good one pocket players do it frequently. However, you don't typically see pros practicing those either, because the shots are difficult, and low percentage. *Skill* brings the odds from very low to low. The reason you don't see lots of 8's on the break in those IPT stats is because the pros recognize that the odds of breaking and running are far higher than the odds of making the 8 on the break. Thus they have no incentive to go for the 8 on the break. Thus you don't see it much. Likewise, a head ball break typically spreads the balls much nicer over the table, and offers far better cue ball control.

The point is that just because the odds of something are low does not mean skill and practice cannot improve those odds.

KMRUNOUT

 

[dabarbr]

Pretty simple really...runouts on a bar box would be too easy if you had your choice. Its only a race to 5 in 8 ball. The APA is a handicapped league. There is no cap to how good a 7 can be. Trust me, my break and run percentage would go up a ton if I had choice after making a ball on the break. That would skew the system even further to the strongest players. This is not what the APA was shooting for. The breaker is not punished. That is your opinion, and represents a certain perspective that I just don't share.

I ask you to consider this: say I make a ball on my break, like a particular group, and having my choice, select that group and run out. Yay for me!! Then I break and don't make a ball, and my opponent runs the set out. Remember it is winner breaks, and a short race. The "take what you make" idea is exactly like the concept of alternating break. It is a method of making the likelihood of running big packages smaller, thus allowing more pool to be played. The rules are the same for both players. If you know how to play 8 ball correctly, it is VERY rare that you have absolutely no play after making only 1 type of balls. Sure, you may not get the superior layout, but with a little creativity and intelligence, you can turn a game around on one shot. You can tie up your opponent, kick safe, play a huge variety of safes, etc. I think if you know how to play, it doesn't make much difference which rule set you use.

KMRUNOUT

This is one of the best post here. I also like your post regarding the break and making the eight ball.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

This is one of the best post here. I also like your post regarding the break and making the eight ball.

Thank you sir!

 

[Matt]

I don't think making the 8 on the break is a skill in the same sense that cutting a ball down the rail or banking a ball (even 3 rails) is, but it does require a combination of knowledge, skill, and luck. You need to know that the 2nd ball break improves your chances of the 8 heading towards the side pocket. You need the skill to execute that break with speed and accuracy. You need to get lucky and have the balls spread and collide in such a way that the 8 actually falls.

If I had to guess, I would say that even someone with near perfect knowledge and mastery of the 2nd ball break makes the 8 on the break once every 30 racks or so as compared to someone that plays the head ball break and only gets the 8 on the break every once in a blue moon.

As someone previously stated, most higher skill level players prefer a head ball break and the better chance for an easily runnable rack over the ~3% (again, guessing) chance of sinking the 8, but it's not a bad choice for a player that has the ability to execute that break but can't routinely run out.

Personally, I don't like the golden break in 8 ball or 9 ball, and would prefer that the 8 or 9 always get spotted if they go on the break.

 

[justadub]

Pretty simple really...runouts on a bar box would be too easy if you had your choice. Its only a race to 5 in 8 ball. The APA is a handicapped league. There is no cap to how good a 7 can be. Trust me, my break and run percentage would go up a ton if I had choice after making a ball on the break. That would skew the system even further to the strongest players. This is not what the APA was shooting for. The breaker is not punished. That is your opinion, and represents a certain perspective that I just don't share.

I ask you to consider this: say I make a ball on my break, like a particular group, and having my choice, select that group and run out. Yay for me!! Then I break and don't make a ball, and my opponent runs the set out. Remember it is winner breaks, and a short race. The "take what you make" idea is exactly like the concept of alternating break. It is a method of making the likelihood of running big packages smaller, thus allowing more pool to be played. The rules are the same for both players. If you know how to play 8 ball correctly, it is VERY rare that you have absolutely no play after making only 1 type of balls. Sure, you may not get the superior layout, but with a little creativity and intelligence, you can turn a game around on one shot. You can tie up your opponent, kick safe, play a huge variety of safes, etc. I think if you know how to play, it doesn't make much difference which rule set you use.

KMRUNOUT

Absolutely the best post on the subject, ever.

 

[CreeDo]

The point is that just because the odds of something are low does not mean skill and practice cannot improve those odds.
KMRUNOUT

Well, skill and practice can improve your odds on many shots, but there's a reason the 8-ball break is different:
There are so many variables that no normal person calculate all of them.

You have fifteen balls interacting on a shot hit at high speed. A tiny gap between any pair of them affects the shot. Cutting the 2nd ball a few millimeters off affects it. Spin on the cue ball affects it. A slightly crooked rack affects it. Balls being slightly worn and different sizes affects it. Balls being clean or not affects it. Probably dimples in the cloth, the condition of the spot, and even humidity affects it. If you're really lucky, you might learn to make it 1-in-30 on one particular table.

So, past a certain point, the role skill plays is so small that it might as well not exist.

Which means it is misleading to say "making the 8 on the break is a skill". A shot that is 99% luck and 1% skill, is not the same as a "skill shot". And it doesn't make sense to reward a guy with a free win no matter how skillfully he breaks, it defeats the purpose of the game to reduce it to a single "semi-lucky" shot.

 

[whitewolf]

Well, skill and practice can improve your odds on many shots, but there's a reason the 8-ball break is different:
There are so many variables that no normal person calculate all of them.

You have fifteen balls interacting on a shot hit at high speed. A tiny gap between any pair of them affects the shot. Cutting the 2nd ball a few millimeters off affects it. Spin on the cue ball affects it. A slightly crooked rack affects it. Balls being slightly worn and different sizes affects it. Balls being clean or not affects it. Probably dimples in the cloth, the condition of the spot, and even humidity affects it. If you're really lucky, you might learn to make it 1-in-30 on one particular table.

So, past a certain point, the role skill plays is so small that it might as well not exist.

Which means it is misleading to say "making the 8 on the break is a skill". A shot that is 99% luck and 1% skill, is not the same as a "skill shot". And it doesn't make sense to reward a guy with a free win no matter how skillfully he breaks, it defeats the purpose of the game to reduce it to a single "semi-lucky" shot.

Oh but it IS A SKILL SHOT! Do you realize how difficult it is to hit the second ball and go slamming into the back side of the rack WITHOUT SCRATCHING, and with the correct english to get the best results?

Making the wing ball on a 9 ball rack requires a lot of luck, but there is a skill in making this shot. So you see, by your logic, making the wing ball on the break is NOT a skill because of the luck factor. Please!

One more thing: the APA give out '8 on the Break' patches :grin:. A lot of players adore those patches so they go for the 2nd ball. Also, these players think they have a cool break because it takes a lot of skill to hit the 2nd ball first

 

[CreeDo]

Oh but it IS A SKILL SHOT! Do you realize how difficult it is to hit the second ball and go slamming into the back side of the rack WITHOUT SCRATCHING, and with the correct english to get the best results?

It's not difficult at all. Any C player can hit the 2nd ball with a little low inside to avoid the scratch.

If it were as simple as hitting the ball correctly, and luck didn't play a role, then one of the pros would have figured out how to make it half the time, and they'd enter 8 ball tournaments and clean house. But you won't find a pro who can hit it even one in ten times reliably.

Making the wing ball on a 9 ball rack requires a lot of luck, but there is a skill in making this shot. So you see, by your logic, making the wing ball on the break is NOT a skill because of the luck factor. Please!

Your comparison doesn't make sense. The wing ball is almost wired with a tight rack. The 8 ball break is not. The wing ball is forgiving. The 8 ball break is not.

Luck plays a role in the wing ball too, because if you eliminate the magic rack (which reduces those variables I mentioned) it won't go in nearly as often, no matter how much you study the gaps in the rack.

I mean, I'm not sure what you think we're arguing about. Can skill influence the outcome of a tough shot? Sure. I won't deny that.

But if you make the shot hard enough, (for example, 3 ball combo with 2 feet between each ball) then the effect of skill becomes so small it doesn't matter. Who cares if you can theoretically practice 8 hours a day and bring your percentage up from 0.5% to to 0.6%?

----------

Think about this.

'Craig Harrison (born 1975) is a Corporal of Horse (CoH) in the Blues and Royals RHG/D of the British Army, and holds the record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in combat'

'Tom Irwin, a director of Accuracy International, the British manufacturer of the L115A3 rifle, said: "It is still fairly accurate beyond 1,500 m (1,640 yd), but at that distance luck plays as much of a part as anything."'

 

[whitewolf]

It's not difficult at all. Any C player can hit the 2nd ball with a little low inside to avoid the scratch.

Any C player???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you clueless?

You probably aren't even aware that some pro players recommend hitting the 2nd ball with low outside english as the cue ball gets more speed coming off the rack.

Like I have said: you can believe what you want. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Maniac]

You probably aren't even aware that some pro players recommend hitting the 2nd ball with low outside english as the cue ball gets more speed coming off the rack.

Some??? What do the others say??? :wink:

Maniac (if it can't be done with any controlled consistency, then it's luck, imo)

 

[whitewolf]

Some??? What do the others say??? :wink:

Maniac (if it can't be done with any controlled consistency, then it's luck, imo)

Then what do you call Buck Fisher's bagging the 8 ball in less than 21 tries, FOR THE MONEY I MIGHT ADD? Get off your hobby horse and call it like it is. Answer me this IF YOU CAN: Why do so many APA players break hitting the 2nd ball first? Is this a myth going after the 8 ball LOL? And you might ask the typical APA player who does this and makes the 8 ball occasionally if he is nuts. Like I have said twice already, it is purely a matter of opinion. You are entitled to yours and I will let it stand there. Regards - over and out!

 

[Maniac]

Then what do you call Buck Fisher's bagging the 8 ball in less than 21 tries, FOR THE MONEY I MIGHT ADD? Get off your hobby horse and call it like it is. Answer me this IF YOU CAN: Why do so many APA players break hitting the 2nd ball first? Is this a myth going after the 8 ball LOL? And you might ask the typical APA player who does this and makes the 8 ball occasionally if he is nuts. Like I have said twice already, it is purely a matter of opinion. You are entitled to yours and I will let it stand there. Regards - over and out!

If you break the rack enough times using the 2nd ball break (which imo is NOT a skill), the 8-ball is going to go in eventually. The odds ARE that it will. On a head ball break it will also go in eventually, just not nearly as often, as the center balls in the rack do not scatter the same way. This HAS to happen. The odds say it will. Did Buck Fisher call which pocket the 8-ball was going to go in on the break? Did he say how many/which balls it was going to carom off of before finding that pocket? Also, how many breaks did he have to make before he did it AGAIN (and once again, did he call pocket, etc.)???

Sure the 8-on-the-snap can be made. Some people can make it more often than others simply because they TRY to do it. There are certain "tricks" they may use to increase their odds of doing it, but to call it SKILL is a bit of a stretch, imo.

I too am done with this subject. I respect your opinion, but I have my own. Neither one of us are wrong (nor right). Public opinion seems to run about 50/50 on this subject too.

Maniac (getting off his hobby horse now)

 

[whitewolf]

If you break the rack enough times using the 2nd ball break (which imo is NOT a skill), the 8-ball is going to go in eventually. The odds ARE that it will. On a head ball break it will also go in eventually, just not nearly as often, as the center balls in the rack do not scatter the same way. This HAS to happen. The odds say it will. Did Buck Fisher call which pocket the 8-ball was going to go in on the break? Did he say how many/which balls it was going to carom off of before finding that pocket? Also, how many breaks did he have to make before he did it AGAIN (and once again, did he call pocket, etc.)???

Sure the 8-on-the-snap can be made. Some people can make it more often than others simply because they TRY to do it. There are certain "tricks" they may use to increase their odds of doing it, but to call it SKILL is a bit of a stretch, imo.

I too am done with this subject. I respect your opinion, but I have my own. Neither one of us are wrong (nor right). Public opinion seems to run about 50/50 on this subject too.

Maniac (getting off his hobby horse now)

Well, one thing is obvious to me. You don't know how to make the 8 ball on the break. Buck's 8 ball went to the side pocket on the left from breaking on the right side. It went there every shot. Maniac, you to do not have a clue; you just pretend to.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Did Buck rack his own?

:wink:

Well, one thing is obvious to me. You don't know how to make the 8 ball on the break. Buck's 8 ball went to the side pocket on the left from breaking on the right side. It went there every shot. Maniac, you to do not have a clue; you just pretend to.

 

[Maniac]

Maniac, you to do not have a clue; you just pretend to.

Thanks. I am not clueless though. I am also not a pretender.

When I get more time, maybe next week, I will rack myself 100 racks of 8-ball and break hitting second ball, low & outside english just like "some" pros (I appreciate you not dropping names here :wink that you know say you should. I'll report back on the statistics with a new thread. Keep in mind that I am not a weak breaker, have excellent break cues, Delta-13 racks, and a good table that racks tight. The statistics will NOT be skewed. I will break 50 times from each side. Besides hitting the second ball and using the recommended english, what else, short of rack manipulation, can be done that would be considered skillful?

Maniac (doesn't appreciate condescending talk from posters who's opinions differ from mine)

 

[APA Operator]

Besides hitting the second ball and using the recommended english, what else, short of rack manipulation, can be done that would be considered skillful?

Speed. The condition of the equipment, and even the weather, can affect how the balls react on that break. On any given day on any given table, the most important skill in that break is probably knowing how hard to hit it.

 

[whitewolf]

Thanks. I am not clueless though. I am also not a pretender.


Maniac (doesn't appreciate condescending talk from posters who's opinions differ from mine)

I am not being condescending by stating that you do not know the 2nd ball break as well as you say you do. I am sorry that you feel that way - otherwise I wish to show you no disrespect.

I did speak to Mike Sigel last night about this very subject. BTW, I was correct about his film (where he was explaining making the 8 on the break) being used by Virtual Pool. Mike says he has sued for money from them and that he is still owed.

I told Mike Sigel about all the AZ posters who were saying that making the 8 ball on the break was not skill, that an SL 5 could make the shot about as much as better players. This is what Mike said about you guys, and I quote: "No skill? What a bunch of s h i t; I have made the 8 ball 3 times in a row hitting the second ball first <shaking his head>".

Whether you know this or not, Mike wrote all the rules for the IPT tournament. Why do you think the players had to break from inside the box?

 

[whitewolf]

Did Buck rack his own?

:wink:

For what is worth, Buck "The Buck Stops Here" did rack his own.:wink:

 

[Matt]

I told Mike Sigel about all the AZ posters who were saying that making the 8 ball on the break was not skill, that an SL 5 could make the shot about as much as better players. This is what Mike said about you guys, and I quote: "No skill? What a bunch of s h i t; I have made the 8 ball 3 times in a row hitting the second ball first <shaking his head>".

Based on Mike's reply, specifically the "No skill?" comment, you obviously misrepresented the opinions of the posters on this thread telling you that making the 8 on the break is not what they would call a skill shot. Any shot in pool requires skills; if nothing else, you have to be able to make contact with the cue ball using the tip of a cue without fouling. The difference between what people refer to as a skill shot versus a luck shot is how much of a factor luck plays in the outcome of the shot. Making a 3 ball combo (with some distance between the balls) requires a great deal of skill to even get close, but I have yet to see someone make that shot repeatedly enough that they could claim that they weren't getting lucky when they did. A Z-bank from one end of the table to another to cut a ball in would be another example. Efren's famous for having made that shot, and it took some skill to even make contact with the ball, but he's said himself that he got lucky. The 8 on the break also falls in this category. You need some skill to execute that break, but if the 8 falls, you got lucky.

 

[Maniac]

Speed. The condition of the equipment, and even the weather, can affect how the balls react on that break. On any given day on any given table, the most important skill in that break is probably knowing how hard to hit it.

Come on. Speed is a simple matter of experimentation, not a skill. Anybody that wields a cue stick and knows which end to hold can change speeds with the cueball. Plus that, how many times are you going to have to hit it at varying sppeds until the 8-ball goes in on the break? Then, for the next who-knows-how-many breaks before it goes in again you are going to have to hit it that exact same speed? Hell, the conditions may have changed by the time you've done it again.

FTR, I too have seen the 8-on-the-snap made multiple times in a row. Problem is, the persons I saw do it never did it again in all the time I saw them play. Hell, with what Sigel supposedly said, he should be the reigning 8-ball king on the planet. He's not and neither is anyone else that thinks the 8 being skillfully made on the break is the way to win. The best 8-ball players in the world got that way from running tables out, not snapping 8's.

Maniac (should have long been done with this but hey, I'm retired so what else is there to do?)