Applying sidespin with low-deflection shafts

JoeyA said:
dr_dave said:
But as soon as you get the "masses" to understand squerve, then we will need to talk about throw, which is much more complicated (and unimportant for many shots). :eek: :grin-square:
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In regards to throw, someone must have known that one day the pool forum would be discussing alcohol and drug abuse and they previously threw out "squervo". Not sure if it caught on but it has a nice ring to it.
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I personally don't like combining the topics of squirt, swerve, and throw into a single discussion (or word) because they are so complicated and different (see squirt, swerve, and throw effects). Squerve, on the other hand, is a natural combination of squirt and swerve, which, as you point, most people already think about together anyway (squerve = "effective squirt" = "effective cue ball deflection" = "deflection" = combo of squirt and swerve). Squerve has to do with the path of the CB. Throw has to do with what happens to the object ball after you send the CB to the desired ghost-ball position (or contact point), which can be adjusted for throw.

Regards,
Dave
 
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dr_dave said:
Good point about the "radial consistency" a radial-laminate LD shaft can provide. However, I think the main benefit of the radial laminate is: the shaft is less likely to warp over time.

Concerning squirt consistency, I disagree. I've done some tests with a non-radial laminate shaft, which should have a strong "spine," and the squirt did not change with cue twist angle. For more info, see my February '08 BD article.

FYI, I now have long lists of both advantages and disadvantages of low-squirt (AKA low cue-ball deflection, AKA low deflection, AKA LD) shafts, along with links to supporting resources, here:

Check them out.

Regards,
Dave
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Dave,

It's too bad you didn't test a conventional one piece shaft for squirt differences based on spine rotation - that would have been an interesting comparison.

Chris
 
TATE said:
It's too bad you didn't test a conventional one piece shaft for squirt differences based on spine rotation - that would have been an interesting comparison.
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Agreed.

This is certainly on my list, if I ever build a new machine.

Regards,
Dave
 
mincho said:
I can fairly say that I overestimated the importance or effects of a low deflection shaft. With that said, I can still see some advantages and I plan to give my 314-2 some time. Right now I can use parallel english and BHE but honestly parallel english feels so wrong, even if I do make the shot.
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I would like to tell you what I think the advantage is of an aftermarket low squirt shaft. The well made ones are more consistent from shaft to shaft.

I have now played with either 314's or my new OB Classic for about 6 years. I have had five 314's and two OB Classic's. Whenever I've replaced a shaft, there has been almost zero adjustment time. I could play with any of the 314's interchangeably or the 2 OB's interchangeably. It took a month or so to fully adapt to the playing characteristics of the OB Classic from the 314, but my back up OB shaft is identical to my playing shaft. Also, I can take any of these shafts and screw them into my bar cue (which matches my playing cue's dimensions) or another similarly weighted cue, and play with little or no adjustment time.

I never feel like there is a shot that I am faced with my equipment can't handle. Maybe I can't pull off the shot, but I know my equipment will perform exactly as I think it will. On some shots, there is almost no room for error. Pool players have to trust their equipment to perform. Small testing differences may seem minor on a graph but can mean the difference between making that hair thin full table cut shot on the 9 ball and continuing in the tournament and missing the OB all altogether and slamming the trunk.

Previously, on my Josswest and other cues, there have been large adjustment periods when the conventional shafts were replaced. Two seemingly identical conventional shafts had considerably different playing characteristics.

Anyway, that's why I'm sticking with the aftermarket shafts.

Chris
 
For what its worth, I am currently coming back from a couple years off from pool. I played a bar league with some buddies, and played horribly all season. I got destroyed in the season ending tournament by players I would normally spot 3-4 balls, and got super-motivated to get my game back.

Flash back a couple of years and I heard/read something about the importance of a "square hit" on the cb and how parallel english would provide this vs the 'glancing blow' delivered by back hand english. The concept made sense and I was playing around with it when I quit playing.

So when I came back to the game I was using (subconciously) parallel english, and I was missing EVERYTHING. I used to be really good @ 'checking' balls in or using the 'gear effect', and even that wasn't working. I was still under-cutting everything.

To make matters worse, my shot making was so bad, that I wouldn't even dream of using inside english on any shot of relative difficulty which resulted in me only being able to go one way with alot of shots, which compounded the problem (but it probably didn't matter because I was going to miss anyway).

Long story short, I watched some vids of Dr. Daves, and realized I was doing some hybrid of front-hand/parallel english. I went to straight back-hand english and it was night and day. This was mostly with a 314-2, but it also applied to a couple of cues with standard maple shafts.

I found my piviot point, and now I can set up right on-line with the natural contact point of the ball, move the tip to the desired english position, and fire away. Inside, outside, xtreme, its all good! It's great to see the balls hitting the back of the pocket again!

Thanks Dr Dave!!
 
JoeyA said:
I am afraid that MOST people have come to understand that shifting their cue close to the original aiming line, while simultaneously mentally adjusting for squirt and swerve, place the cue tip where it needs to be to make the shot and get the cue ball action they are looking for ... will be considered parallel English.
Click to expand...

By continuing to use a misleading term people are actually promoting misunderstanding of what really happens.

Your will wear out all of your treads before you convince the population that there is no such thing as parallel English.
Click to expand...

I got lotsa treads.

If you can come up with a different word for it like you did for sqirve, I will tweak it and make it acceptable to the masses. :p
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LOL. You just can't bring yourself to spell squirve correctly, can you?

Here's a snappy name for you: "squirt correction by feel". We'll call it "squeel".

pj
chgo
 
TATE said:
I would like to tell you what I think the advantage is of an aftermarket low squirt shaft. The well made ones are more consistent from shaft to shaft.

Chris
Click to expand...


Thats good reasoning...thats also the ONLY reason they make those shafts that way....

Don't think that the idea for spliced shafts came to better the equipment for the players.....

It came because of cost of material waste!

A good cue maker will cull through shafts to find one that will stay straight and true...one that has radial consistency :)

by cutting up all the wood and "splicing" it back together you can achieve a level of consistency in your entire output at a low waste/rejection percentage.

A cue maker could match your shafts tone/weight/taper....whatever if he wants to take the time.

I like my shaft with low squirt but it doesn't have anything fancy, just a differient taper, shorter ferrulle and small shouldered tip....and believe me if a meucci black dot or a 314 is low squirt then my shaft must be NO SQUIRT lol...

The aftermarket LD shafts are not really a better performing shaft....its just more consistent so the manufacturer makes more and loses less and the consumer can grab one off the shelf and expect to get very similar/equal results with his previous shaft.

likes his wood sans glue,
-Grey Ghost-
 
My prevouise post sounds a little confusing but i found something that
explains the type of method i use to the t.

Carabao English
The term carabao english is derived from the
Pidgin English spoken by the Filipino pool experts
who have brought this stroke into recent promi-
nence, though some Americans were known to
employ the technique as long ago as the 1930s.
Simply performed, carabao english is an eye-opener
for most players. Address the cue with center ball
aim along the shot line and on the final stroke for-
ward, then swerve the shooting hand and stick so
the cue tip strikes the intended spot for english.
 
Another way to describe this is to use stroke swoop to perform back-hand-English.

Regards,
Dave

8pack said:
My prevouise post sounds a little confusing but i found something that
explains the type of method i use to the t.

Carabao English
The term carabao english is derived from the
Pidgin English spoken by the Filipino pool experts
who have brought this stroke into recent promi-
nence, though some Americans were known to
employ the technique as long ago as the 1930s.
Simply performed, carabao english is an eye-opener
for most players. Address the cue with center ball
aim along the shot line and on the final stroke for-
ward, then swerve the shooting hand and stick so
the cue tip strikes the intended spot for english.
Click to expand...
 
8pack said:
My prevouise post sounds a little confusing but i found something that
explains the type of method i use to the t.

Carabao English
The term carabao english is derived from the
Pidgin English spoken by the Filipino pool experts
who have brought this stroke into recent promi-
nence, though some Americans were known to
employ the technique as long ago as the 1930s.
Simply performed, carabao english is an eye-opener
for most players. Address the cue with center ball
aim along the shot line and on the final stroke for-
ward, then swerve the shooting hand and stick so
the cue tip strikes the intended spot for english.
Click to expand...

Except for the name, players in the US have been doing this forever - and most people advise against it.

If it works for you, great - but I wouldn't recommend it to somebody trying to learn. It's hard enough to learn the different squirve (squirt+swerve) adjustments needed for different shot distances and speeds without also trying to learn to hit the right spot on the CB from the right angle with a swooping stroke and tip. In fact, I think that players who do this must limit themselves to just a few different "standard" sidespin hits so they can become very practiced at them.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
By continuing to use a misleading term people are actually promoting misunderstanding of what really happens.



I got lotsa treads.



LOL. You just can't bring yourself to spell squirve correctly, can you?

Here's a snappy name for you: "squirt correction by feel". We'll call it "squeel".

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

That's very piggy of you but I would of course prefer "squeal".
 
mincho said:
So I just bought a new 314-2 shaft. Previously I shot just fine with a standard maple shaft, and this new shaft is rattling my cage. What method to apply sidespin do you guys recommend? I used to use backhand english on my maple shaft very effectively.

So, are there any advice, tips, or stories you can share about you readjusting to a low deflection shaft? It truly is a much different experience.
Click to expand...

i learned to play with a 314 so to be honest it comes natural to me.

the only real good advice i can give you is to sell the shaft. why bother taking a step back in your game trying to adjust to something that won't really make you any better. it's different, not better.

buy yourself a standard shaft and stick to it. the only real advantage to using a predator, or other ld shaft, is that if something happens to your cue you can buy another shaft without too much of an adjustment period
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Except for the name, players in the US have been doing this forever - and most people advise against it.

If it works for you, great - but I wouldn't recommend it to somebody trying to learn. It's hard enough to learn the different squirve (squirt+swerve) adjustments needed for different shot distances and speeds without also trying to learn to hit the right spot on the CB from the right angle with a swooping stroke and tip. In fact, I think that players who do this must limit themselves to just a few different "standard" sidespin hits so they can become very practiced at them.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I agree with you but once practiced it is very simple.
When i apply English to the ball i like the fact that my cue is
always on my the sighting line.
 
Ive been shooting with a predator since they first came out. something like 20 years ago now? when they had the full length ferrules.

It feels like they are more of a static deflection shaft up until a certain power level, then they drastically change characteristics.

I would rather shoot with my non-hollow Olney shafts, than the 314. I think the predators help your game by encouraging you to shoot straight through the ball, but I think if you shoot by feel... the predators are a dead stick.

I think that the very thing that makes predators so good, also makes it more difficult to get a feel for your stroke. Love em/Hate em... I shoot better with my Olney, but the predators are sure fun to toy with. I also cant see how someone could put a junk shaft on a 3000$+ cue. my .02
 
8pack said:
My prevouise post sounds a little confusing but i found something that
explains the type of method i use to the t.

Carabao English
The term carabao english is derived from the
Pidgin English spoken by the Filipino pool experts
who have brought this stroke into recent promi-
nence, though some Americans were known to
employ the technique as long ago as the 1930s.
Simply performed, carabao english is an eye-opener
for most players. Address the cue with center ball
aim along the shot line and on the final stroke for-
ward, then swerve the shooting hand and stick so
the cue tip strikes the intended spot for english.
Click to expand...

This is the same as what Cornerman Fred dubbed "Dynamic aim & pivot" or "dynamic backhand english" a decade or so ago.
 
JoeyA said:
Patrick,
I understand what you are saying and don't disagree but I am afraid that MOST people have come to understand that shifting their cue close to the original aiming line, while simultaneously mentally adjusting for squirt and swerve, place the cue tip where it needs to be to make the shot and get the cue ball action they are looking for and no matter what you try to call it, it will be considered parallel English. :D

This is like trying to get people to not use the word ain't because it isn't standard English. Your will wear out all of your treads before you convince the population that there is no such thing as parallel English.

[...]
Click to expand...

The difference is people might be a little annoyed by "ain't," but nobody is confused by the meaning of "ain't."

I have always taken "parallel english" to mean the shooter shifts the cue sideways without changing its line to apply english--a practice that will work modestly OK for a lot of shots with a low-squirt shaft.

Often people are comparing this to backhand english (pivoting about your bridge hand). If you bridge at 8 inches, then (neglecting swerve) parallel english will work better than backhand english for all cues with pivot points over 16". At 16", the two approaches are equally bad.

But this is where (for two tips of english) shifting parallel for one tip and then pivoting to get the second tip gives the right aim.

As for the term "parallel english," I think it would be a shame if people have meant it or intend to use it in the future to mean some amorphous do-your-own-thing aim. I'd prefer those people say something like "I start out moving the stick parallel and then do my own thing." Otherwise communication is bad.

"Parallel english" ain't "aint."
 
azbluemach1 said:
For what its worth, I am currently coming back from a couple years off from pool. I played a bar league with some buddies, and played horribly all season. I got destroyed in the season ending tournament by players I would normally spot 3-4 balls, and got super-motivated to get my game back.

Flash back a couple of years and I heard/read something about the importance of a "square hit" on the cb and how parallel english would provide this vs the 'glancing blow' delivered by back hand english. The concept made sense and I was playing around with it when I quit playing.

So when I came back to the game I was using (subconciously) parallel english, and I was missing EVERYTHING. I used to be really good @ 'checking' balls in or using the 'gear effect', and even that wasn't working. I was still under-cutting everything.

To make matters worse, my shot making was so bad, that I wouldn't even dream of using inside english on any shot of relative difficulty which resulted in me only being able to go one way with alot of shots, which compounded the problem (but it probably didn't matter because I was going to miss anyway).

Long story short, I watched some vids of Dr. Daves, and realized I was doing some hybrid of front-hand/parallel english. I went to straight back-hand english and it was night and day. This was mostly with a 314-2, but it also applied to a couple of cues with standard maple shafts.

I found my piviot point, and now I can set up right on-line with the natural contact point of the ball, move the tip to the desired english position, and fire away. Inside, outside, xtreme, its all good! It's great to see the balls hitting the back of the pocket again!

Thanks Dr Dave!!
Click to expand...
You're welcome!

I aim to squerve, :grin-square:
Dave
 
My advice on switching to a low deflection shaft: Play the same way you always did, just remember to expect a little less deflection. After a few times out playing with it, you will automatically get used to the way it plays differently.

As far as the pivot point goes, I'm not saying it doesnt matter but I never pay attention to it. I just try to get as comfortable as I can. Sometimes I have to stretch, so my form goes out the window. Other times I have to shoot off the rail or close to it, so I don't bother factoring pivot points in.
 
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