Are fundamentals just a myth?

JC

Coos Cues
I've been pondering this question lately. What are fundamentals when it comes to pool? If something is fundamental in nature then it is both basic and indisputable. Having recently spent time with a couple of very respected instructors I find this to be an increasingly tough question to answer. Are fundamentals something those with no natural talent can learn in order to rise to the eventual level of "better than they used to be"? Why do so many players who are better than most of us will ever be lack so many of these so called fundamentals? Why do these folks get by with so many "bad habits" and still prosper? How can someone who doesn't address the cue ball pre shot within two inches run 150 balls in straight pool? Or someone who looks last at the cue ball run multiple racks of 9 ball regularly? Or doesn't "follow through"? Or stands all crooked and funky at the table? Where is the line drawn with "unorthodox" techniques where we can say this person will never prosper? Is there one really? Or is it just when we see someone failing that we pick apart what they're doing "fundamentally"? I don't know the answer to any of this but it has had me thinking lately.
 
The end goal for fundamentals are to help you line up properly and send the cue ball to where you are aiming. What has been deemed proper fundamentals is essentially the most efficient manner in which to achieve this goal.

The big difference between the players you mention and the rest of the crowd is often the amount of practice and quality of practice. They've managed to get to their level in SPITE of their awkwardness. If you take a look at the world of snooker you still see players with odd approaches (Joe Swail for example), but there are far fewer examples.

I would not toss fundamentals out the window, that approach will cause most players to plateau almost immediately.
 
I've been pondering this question lately. What are fundamentals when it comes to pool? If something is fundamental in nature then it is both basic and indisputable. Having recently spent time with a couple of very respected instructors I find this to be an increasingly tough question to answer. Are fundamentals something those with no natural talent can learn in order to rise to the eventual level of "better than they used to be"? Why do so many players who are better than most of us will ever be lack so many of these so called fundamentals? Why do these folks get by with so many "bad habits" and still prosper? How can someone who doesn't address the cue ball pre shot within two inches run 150 balls in straight pool? Or someone who looks last at the cue ball run multiple racks of 9 ball regularly? Or doesn't "follow through"? Or stands all crooked and funky at the table? Where is the line drawn with "unorthodox" techniques where we can say this person will never prosper? Is there one really? Or is it just when we see someone failing that we pick apart what they're doing "fundamentally"? I don't know the answer to any of this but it has had me thinking lately.

I think the misconception happens because talented players can overcome not having sound form and stroke principles with disgusting amounts of practice and competition. I don't like the term fundamental either because it has multiple meanings.

I spent 10 years gambling and playing every waking moment after dropping out of school at 13 years old using a form and stroke that wasn't " fundamentally" correct and it kept me from getting past a certain level and the progress stopped. A couple sessions with a coach to "fix" bobbing elbow, inward arm, rear hand too far forward, bridge hand too loose, head raising, stance wrong, eye pattern backwards, crooked stroke..etc, 6 months of doing nothing but drills on my form and stroke without a single recreational game and the jeers from the gamblers I stopped playing with and painful countless hours spent learning the new stroke in front of a mirror and camera and

I went from being an average player to winning $7,000 the first month back playing, two big regional tournament wins, suddenly winning 90% of the weekly tournaments and being one of the top players everywhere I moved from then on.

If anyone asks me if they can get past the "amateur" level without fixing issues that make sense to the pool form and stroke ("fundamentals") I have to stop myself from choking with laughter. Those that do become world class without it have an extra level that the majority of us can't attain without a lifetime of practice. Just because those special exceptions can do it doesn't make fundamentals a myth.
 
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I have came to the conclusion that natural talent in pool is related to a persons ability to be able to know and control where the tip of the cue is and what it is doing while striking the cueball......

Some players just seem to be born with this feel and can progress faster and naturally reach higher levels than those born without it.... Without it you only have one way to climb the mountain and that is by developing and adhering to fundamentals to give you a baseline and reference for where the cue tip is and what it is doing......
 
Are fundamentals a myth? No. But fundamentals are a myth depending on what they are. That said, they need defining. A fundamental should be that which is absolutely necessary, and done so as efficiently as possible.

I won't describe what those are, but it's safe to say whatever it takes to hit the CB in the exact spot needed on the correct line of aim with the appropriate speed. That's it. Swoop stroke, side arm, head movement...whatever. It doesn't matter. If that tip is hitting the CB where the shooter wants, that's what matters. Nothing else.

The key word is efficient. The text book type stroke, stance, grip etcetera are meant to help a shooter do what was described above (hit the CB properly) as efficiently as possible. That is accomplished through simplifying the motions, stances, grips as much as possible to that which is needed, and nothing more.

In other words, no superfluous or unnecessary body movements. Weird body movements while stroking the ball, following through, bizarre preshot routines....they may not harm anything, but they certainly don't help. They are excessive. Not only that, but the text book perfect stance and stroke is also less error-prone.

Now, for the individual shooter - they may be doing something for themselves by doing these things.. Might be something they do to get some kind of pre-shot "feel" ...or it's just a habit they could never shake but learned to deal with or make work, or maybe some stance that looks mechanically flawed is actually more comfortable to them? Hard to say.


The one thing I can say is, the proof is in the pudding. The CUE BALL DOESN'T LIE.


Look at a player like Keith McCready. He's my favorite example. Always loved his game. What an awful looking stroke and kind of weird stance. His follow through looks absolutely terrible. Almost like some bar player jumping up on a shot while they rush to shoot.

However, who here can say it doesn't work? That man has played some of the best 9-ball of all time. Great shot making, excellent position play. The whole package. Compare that to someone who has one of the most beautiful strokes of all time - Buddy Hall. Straight as can be. Methodical. Steady looking. Like a machine. No one I've ever seen before or after delivers the cue through the stroke like Buddy did. However, both these greats got the job done...with radically different styles...


How about some of the Filipinos? A whole thread could be dedicated to them.


Some might say that while some shooters have unique movements in their arm or stroke, there are fundamentals they all abide by. One of which that is often cited is - head movement. No matter what they all do, at the moment of impact - they have a steady head. Wrong! Some have slight head movement. Some slight shoulder movement. Some have minor movement in the bridge arm and hand. Some do twisting motions with their grip hand. I've seen it all. For all the talk about pros doing it right, there are many of them violating many of the rules taught to beginners as "fundamentals" ...and running rack after rack doing so. I know, because I was fanatical at studying the perfect stroke and mechanics, but would spend hours and hours at Florida Tour stops and other pro events watching the mechanics of these guys and scratch my head.


Up to this point, I have seen every single fundamental broken and violated by players who shoot great. Except for one: They all hit the CB where they want, with the right speed and on the right line of aim.


Now, this doesn't mean we all should just do whatever we want and it will work out for us like it did some of these players. That's a bad, bad idea gentlemen. These players with what appears to be gross violation of the most accepted fundamentals and who play top level are the EXCEPTION. Most pros are fine examples of perfect fundamentals applied.


For every one of these fundamental breakers, there are tens of thousands, if not more, of players who are being held back from maximizing their potential because of bad fundamentals and flaws. That's why getting quality lessons from quality instructors pays off for 9/10 students or more. They benefit from following these stance, grip, stroke fundamentals.


In other sports, such as golf, tennis, football etcetera...professional coaches and trainers won't tell you to just do whatever works for you. In those sports and in those industries, it is strongly held and believed that there is a mechanically superior form or technique.


Yes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. However, at any one given point in time, there's only one most efficient way. The way that gets the job done with the least amount of effort, energy and possibility for error. That's what the pool instructors teach.


The idea is, when your body and mind are not burdened as much, that's just a tiny bit more of one's self that can be put toward concentrating on the task. Or, say a certain kind of grip causes you to use 3% more muscle energy and mind/muscle control to use because it is a more complex movement that requires more signals from the brain to muscles to correct or keep on path. Then that is not most efficient. Burning "resources" doing something the harder way. Which means, the maximum potential is not being realized.


The best path is going with the textbook perfect stroke, grip and stance that is taught. It's the most efficient that we know of today. It's also a cookie-cutter method. Designed to help the vast majority of players reach their greatest potential. That said, it is impossible to teach any kind of grip, stance or stroke style to suit some individuals unique needs. Which are entirely personal to them. Whether it is mental, physical or just has to do with that hard to quantify and define "feel" ...


What I mean by that is, those people who do things in an unorthodox way, they probably do so because for whatever reason, the textbook way didn't work for them. Some would disagree, and say that the unorthodox guy would be better shooting text book....


Would they? Would someone like Keith be even better than he was with a Buddy style stroke and mechanics? If you asked pro golf trainers and football trainers, they would say yes. They would say yes without hesitation.

I personally don't agree. I like to believe there's always something unique and special about some people. And that some things truly do work better for others. This is merely a belief, and I acknowledge it has no scientific backing. It's a matter of faith for me. I just like to think so.


However, those who have studied it to the extreme - who have millions and millions of dollars invested in it all say yes, they would be better if they did things the right way. Good example is all the talk about Tim Tebow. He has an unorthodox throw. It worked fine, but it's potential is limited. Doesn't get the job done in the NFL, worked in college though. So they are rebuilding his throw, to throw the perfect way. Like Brady or others.


In those sports, they strongly promote the pro way of doing things. Doesn't mean they are right, but usually those with so much money riding on it - tend not to be wasting their money.


In pool, we don't have nearly the cut throat kind of vetting process as these sports...but it's pretty clear that the guys with the eccentric strokes, grips and stances tend to remain in the realm of league players, and the guys (or gals) with near perfect fundamentals can reach A player levels or even semi-pro.
 
That's for sure!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

In pool, we don't have nearly the cut throat kind of vetting process as these sports...but it's pretty clear that the guys with the eccentric strokes, grips and stances tend to remain in the realm of league players, and the guys (or gals) with near perfect fundamentals can reach A player levels or even semi-pro.
 
Perhaps the answer is fundamentals can vary from person to person. Oliver Ortmann with his sidearm stroke doesn't have the same fundamentals as Jimmy Moore with his slip stroke or Efren with his pump stroke or Alan Hopkins with his punch stroke but they all have unique fundamentals which they can repeat over and over. If their fundamentals are off their game suffers.
 
Interesting story.

Perhaps the answer is fundamentals can vary from person to person. Oliver Ortmann with his sidearm stroke doesn't have the same fundamentals as Jimmy Moore with his slip stroke or Efren with his pump stroke or Alan Hopkins with his punch stroke but they all have unique fundamentals which they can repeat over and over. If their fundamentals are off their game suffers.

I used to throw knives. A LOT. I had a friend who wanted to learn how, only problem was that he had multiple surgeries by the time he was 18 months and had three of his vertebrae fused together in order to be able to survive.

Knowing the fundamentals of knife throwing and seeing how he moved, I was able to tell him how to move and what to try and do in order to (as successfully as he was capable) throw knives and get them to hit the target blade first.

So for him, the technique he had to use was different than traditional fundamentals.

Jaden
 
The great thing about the time we live in is that you can spend unlimited hours studying the pros. Thanks to YouTube and other sites and all the people who upload videos, thanks to AccuStats and TAR and others for high quality matches with commentary, we can study the top players and find the things that they have in common. Those things are what is fundamental to playing the games at the highest level.

There is no 100% set way to stand, or stroke, or aim.

But the balls and the table don't know or care who is standing there. They obey only the laws of physics and no player can bend them although many appear to be able to :-)

Any shot and resulting cue ball position has only a finite amount of ways to do it. So the overriding principle that applies to all players is consistency in execution. Can you do what you want to do over and over and over and over?

If not you have to figure out why not? The ball sits there waiting to be hit. So only you can make it move. Your only two states of being after you hit it are success and failure.

Therefore as someone else said the main thing is hitting the ball where you wanted and how you wanted.

You can take any raw beginner and give them a simple goal. From starting point X make the cue ball go to target Y using every possible path to do it five times in a row using that path.

Give them no instruction other than to chalk the cue tip. No stroke instruction, no stance instruction etc... IF the person does not give up then they MUST gravitate towards something that resembles a pool stance. They have to because anything else just doesn't work to be consistent. They must end up with a decent stroke because anything else doesn't work to fulfill the goal.

And that's the whole thing about pool, it's 100% results oriented. So the question is what does it take to get consistent results?

A certain physical approach.
Knowledge.
Practice.
Mental strength.

Let's be perfectly frank. A person who is unable to to move their grip arm in a swinging motion is not going to be able to compete at the highest levels because there is a wide swath of shots he is restricted from doing consistently if at all. So that right there tells you that a certain physicality is required. Someone who can't make the cue ball go to a target consistently is never going to play at the highest levels.

So no, fundamentals are not a myth at all. There are certain physical demands that MUST be met in order to play top level pool. The thing is that there isn't a 100% solid standard for this, no one grip that must be used, no one elbow motion that must be used, no one foot placement that must be used, no head position that is the same for everyone. But there are guidelines that when followed will work for just about everyone.

Following the basic stance position as laid out in all the books and paying attention to the stroke mechanics taught in those books will get anyone started off on the right track to develop into a good player.

And yes, there are always outliers, people who defy convention and manage to succeed with a style that seems to defy convention. But if you look closer then you see more similarities at the execution level than differences.
 
I have came to the conclusion that natural talent in pool is related to a persons ability to be able to know and control where the tip of the cue is and what it is doing while striking the cueball......

Some players just seem to be born with this feel and can progress faster and naturally reach higher levels than those born without it.... Without it you only have one way to climb the mountain and that is by developing and adhering to fundamentals to give you a baseline and reference for where the cue tip is and what it is doing......

X2-- this is pretty much what I was gonna post ( sans cue tip reference because I believe the premise is true for not just that aspect but rather encompasses the whole game ) but I believe this is written more concisely than I was going to lol.
 
I have came to the conclusion that natural talent in pool is related to a persons ability to be able to know and control where the tip of the cue is and what it is doing while striking the cueball......

Some players just seem to be born with this feel and can progress faster and naturally reach higher levels than those born without it.... Without it you only have one way to climb the mountain and that is by developing and adhering to fundamentals to give you a baseline and reference for where the cue tip is and what it is doing......

X2-- this is pretty much what I was gonna post ( sans cue tip reference because I believe the premise is true for not just that aspect but rather encompasses the whole game ) but I believe this is written more concisely than I was going to lol.

But then you have Rob Saez who is not even aware that he is lining up low left and final stroking somewhere else automatically.

Chris Bartram and Bustamante are good examples also.
 
Most of the time

I do think having good fundamentals is important and good coaching early on with devotion to drills may have a positive effect on ones shooting. I don't shoot drills, but I should, so maybe I am happy to be stuck where I am or just lazy. Sounds stupid since I love the game and like winning as much as any one.

Some top players sure don't appear to adhere to what are fundamentals, so maybe our understanding of the term is still developing. Carlo Biado looks fundamentally sound to me, Efren and Busty don't, but the results are similar.

What I think is just as important to attain peak playing is "good table smarts". Some have it and some don't and it usually comes with time and experience. But, at the end of a game the only thing that counts for a win is who makes the balls the most often.

How it was done leaves some room for debate.
 
A pool stroke is timing. The less timing elements you have in a stroke the easier it is to learn. So called 'textbook' fundamentals strive to eliminate as many timing elements as possible.

With enough practice we can train the human body to incorporate any timing element into a given stroke. The issue is that not many people have the time to really hone this type of skill and keep it going correctly and consistently over a long period. Many normal people do not have the ability to devote several hours each day to developing timing elements in their stroke and instead devote time to things like learning pattern play and aiming drills.

This is why someone who grew up in a pool room without any formal instruction will often have a vastly different stroke from someone who learned through extensive training under a respected instructor.
 
As opposed to someone like Keith McCready. I read somewhere that when he started playing he was so young he had to stand on a box and hold his arm sideways. This was to get the cue over the rail and hit the balls.
 
Bottom line, is the fundamentals is going to HELP you and never hurt you. Lack of fundamentals and you may get by, and in some cases exceed to a high level. But there are many more with sound fundamentals on top that those that don't have them.

so, unless you are a freakish natural player, get the fundamentals down pat. We are lucky the ball is not moving in pool so you can "cheat" a little on fundamentals.

Try teaching a new person to play pool without showing them any fundamentals; grip, bridge hand, stance, body alignment, practice strokes, bridge length, follow through, staying down on shot, keeping eye on object ball, etc etc. etc.

Yeah, it would be a long day if you bypassed that and just started shooting at will. How long before they get any better, months, years, longer ?

I see the guys in league with poor fundamentals, and 90% of then are the bad players, not the good players.
 
To address the OP's point about fundamentals being indisputable:

Fundamentals are the foundation for a particular system. They may be indisputable for that particular system, but there are different systems which are disputable.
 
I've been pondering this question lately. What are fundamentals when it comes to pool? If something is fundamental in nature then it is both basic and indisputable. Having recently spent time with a couple of very respected instructors I find this to be an increasingly tough question to answer. Are fundamentals something those with no natural talent can learn in order to rise to the eventual level of "better than they used to be"? Why do so many players who are better than most of us will ever be lack so many of these so called fundamentals? Why do these folks get by with so many "bad habits" and still prosper? How can someone who doesn't address the cue ball pre shot within two inches run 150 balls in straight pool? Or someone who looks last at the cue ball run multiple racks of 9 ball regularly? Or doesn't "follow through"? Or stands all crooked and funky at the table? Where is the line drawn with "unorthodox" techniques where we can say this person will never prosper? Is there one really? Or is it just when we see someone failing that we pick apart what they're doing "fundamentally"? I don't know the answer to any of this but it has had me thinking lately.

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"If something is fundamental in nature then it is both basic/and indisputable."
......................................................................................................................

You don't understand the meaning of fundamental in this context.
Next.

Dale
 
All of the top pros have a very controlled cue action. Nothing more, nothing less. They can consistently hit the cue ball where they want with the smallest margin of error possible.

Now do amateurs pay the same attention to the white ball ? Dont think so.
 
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